- riwo ( @riwo@lemmy.blahaj.zone ) 38•11 months ago
in a lot of places you are legally obligated to tell cops ur name and show them ur passport or drivers license, when they ask. so if this is the case for u, u should do it (and then shut up and say nothing more without ur lawyer)
- TWeaK ( @TWeaK@lemm.ee ) English19•11 months ago
You shouldn’t just shut up after identifying yourself either, you should explicitly state that you are exercising your 5th amendment rights and then shut up. Talking afterwards can be taken as rescinding your 5th amendment assertion.
Famously, a judge once ruled that saying “Yo, I want a lawyer, dawg” was actually not a 5th amendment assertion, and that the suspect was genuinely requesting a dog who practices law.
- Norah - She/They ( @princessnorah@lemmy.blahaj.zone ) English17•11 months ago
Hi, did you know that there are a large number of English speakers on the internet for whom quoting an amendment of the US constitution would not be helpful?
- TWeaK ( @TWeaK@lemm.ee ) English5•11 months ago
Yes, I would be one of them. However that still doesn’t mean what I’ve said isn’t generally best practice, even in areas where it’s not fully required per case law. At the initial interaction with police, you should identify yourself, then clearly say you cannot answer questions without first getting legal advice. Then shut up and don’t answer questions.
Although, if you really want to get into the nitty gritty, other jurisdictions may have more extensive requirements for what you must say, so shutting up isn’t necessarily the best advice everywhere, all the time. There’s also subtle differences between the right to silence and rights against self-incrimination.
In the UK, which first started using right to silence in the 17th century (and then spread its law over much of the rest of the world), inferences can be made from silence. No conviction can be wholly based on silence, but it can be the wrong move. In some situations, eg fraud and terrorism, the right to silence is reduced and you may be obligated to answer. In these circumstances you cannot legally remain silent, but you are still protected against self-incrimination.
- Norah - She/They ( @princessnorah@lemmy.blahaj.zone ) English7•11 months ago
Yes, I would be one of them.
That’s worse mate! You said 5th amendment three bloody times, when you could have given the same advice without referencing it at all. It’s not like saying “5th amendment” is a neck verse or something. You can just say “I’m choosing to invoke my right to not answer questions at this time” and as a bonus, that works everywhere that has such a right, including the United States ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
- TWeaK ( @TWeaK@lemm.ee ) English2•11 months ago
Maybe I should’ve added in that it was specifically referring to the US in my first comment, but I also wanted to use it as an example to show that there is some significant nuance and depth to the subject.
In any case, most of the world does understand US terminology in some manner. For example, the Philippines courts referenced “so-called Miranda rights” when establishing their law.
You can just say “I’m choosing to invoke my right to not answer questions at this time” and as a bonus, that works everywhere that has such a right, including the United States ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
That’s exactly what I did in the comment you just replied to:
At the initial interaction with police, you should identify yourself, then clearly say you cannot answer questions without first getting legal advice. Then shut up and don’t answer questions.
But that doesn’t include the story about the lawyer dog, which seemed relevant to this post with a dog giving legal advice.
- Einar ( @original_reader@lemm.ee ) 10•11 months ago
Again, only in the US.
Nevertheless, the right to remain silent is protected in many countries. Deciding whether to use it on the other hand, is not always easy.
- TWeaK ( @TWeaK@lemm.ee ) English2•11 months ago
Absolutely, however the right to silence is not universal. There are circumstances in some jurisdictions where you can be compelled to say things. In such cases the things you say cannot be used in evidence against you (right against self-incrimination) but they can still lead to evidence that can be used.
Even the US has a bit of this, for example you can be compelled to give over a password. To draw an example, if you were investigated for robbery and had the password “IRobPeople”, then the password couldn’t be used in evidence against you but any evidence they find when using the password could.
The US Supreme Court has ruled that passwords are protected by the fifth amendment protection against self-incrimination.
Biometrics are not.
Law enforcement hacking into your device is acceptable. Evidence on your device remains admissable with probable cause, a warrant or a judge who likes the police / dislikes you.
Some judges will hold you in contempt for failing unlock your own device. (fourteen years is the record on contempt jail terms). So YMMV once youre facing charges.
Theres also a forgone conclusion rule. If the prosecutors can show sufficient evidence to a crime exists on your device, you can be compelled to open it. I do not know how this proof happens.
Also some judges (including SCOTUS by a ruling) just dont care if the evidence of a crime was legally obtained, they let it be admissible because locking you away is more important than state actors following protocols that preserve civil rights. Id est, the whole of the fourth and fifth amendments to the Constitution of the United States are as slippery as Schrödinger’s cat.
- Null User Object ( @nulluser@programming.dev ) 6•11 months ago
I think you’ll find you’ll start getting taken way more seriously online when you start typing like an adult. Use whole words, not stupid abbreviations. Capitalize and punctuate appropriately.
- riwo ( @riwo@lemmy.blahaj.zone ) 3•11 months ago
didnt ask + go fuck urself + i type however the fuck i want uwu
i think u might be seen as way less unlikeable if u stopped being such a tight assed bitch <3
i’m an adult. any way i type is like an adult. if someone cant take me serious because of the way i type, thats their issue. i’m in the comment section of an online meme community not writing a work email. i can write however i want as long as its understandable.
- Dagwood222 ( @Dagwood222@lemm.ee ) 22•11 months ago
Reality check. 9 times out of ten, you’re way better off just being a good little citizen and co-operating. Cops are people, and you get better results by playing nice.
If you get stopped randomly by a cop, just show your ID and tell him where you’re going. They can arrest and hold you if they want, and the chances of you suing are pretty low. They have the power, and you don’t. The place to assert your rights is in the courtroom, not when you can be arrested and or beaten for acting proud.
Don’t be these guys
- halfeatenpotato ( @halfeatenpotato@lonestarlemmy.mooo.com ) 15•11 months ago
Yeah, no. Glad that it’s worked out for you (so far), but it doesn’t always work out for everyone. I agree that you shouldn’t be aggressive and standoffish, but you sure as fuck should not trust the cops. All they’ve shown is that they are a gang that believe they’re above the law. They’re out to protect and serve each other — not us.
- Dagwood222 ( @Dagwood222@lemm.ee ) 4•11 months ago
Where did I say ‘trust’? I will repeat my basic message. Assert your rights in the courtroom and not the street. I know of plenty of instances of cops killing civilians and not spending a minute in court, let alone jail.
- Cethin ( @Cethin@lemmy.zip ) English4•11 months ago
I agree handing over your ID is probably good, even in a state where it isn’t required. That is unless you’re doing something obviously illegal and they don’t know yet and you think you can hide your identity somehow, but I doubt it.
However, the right to remain silent and to an attorney are important. The location you’re coming from or going to can be used as bullshit reasons to arrest you even if it’s not bad. The way you speak can be used to arrest you. The smell of your breath can be used to arrest you.
Basically, hand over your I’d through a crack in the window. Keep your hands on the steering wheel in plain sight. If they ask questions, tell them you won’t be answering questions and invoke your right to remain silent, then STFU. You won’t win their game. Cooperate with the basic requirements, but don’t give them more than the basic information. It’s their job to figure out what you were doing and if it was illegal. Don’t help them do their job.
In 2015 officer involved homicide averaged four a day, a factor that has only increased in the following years during the rise of Trump-led hate rhetoric. (also not including those covered up by precinct coroners, which was discovered in studies to be routine)
50% of the victims were neither armed nor resisting.
- Dagwood222 ( @Dagwood222@lemm.ee ) 4•11 months ago
Thus proving my point. Knowing your cop might be ready to kill, is it really wise to start off by quoting the Constitution?
At the point that a law enforcement officer is ready to kill, they’re not going to get much intelligible out of me at all, since I would panic myself right into a face full of lead, and joining the disproportionately high statistic of people with mental illness massacred by law enforcement for no good reason.
Asserting my rights would be at the point I find myself detained and they’re asking me questions, at which point, I’d hope guns might no longer be involved. But I expect a dark room, hours or even days of detention without food or water might be involved. Black sites and enhanced interrogation might be as well, since it’s not easy to extract a confession from an innocent man, but the Reid technique insists they try.
- TheBlue22 ( @TheBlue22@lemmy.blahaj.zone ) 6•11 months ago
Especially if you are not white or white passing
- essell ( @essellburns@beehaw.org ) 13•11 months ago
In a lot of places these don’t apply, most western countries cops are not allowed to lie
- 🦄🦄🦄 ( @Duke_Nukem_1990@feddit.de ) 9•11 months ago
And that means that they never do, obviously :)
- essell ( @essellburns@beehaw.org ) 8•11 months ago
UK cops are so careful about it, according to my two friends who do or did that work. They know their work can be undone in an instant if they’re caught in a lie and it’ll impact on them personally.
Funny how accountability in the police makes a difference to abuse!
- 🦄🦄🦄 ( @Duke_Nukem_1990@feddit.de ) 5•11 months ago
I feel like this needs tobe said: Cops in the UK are still bastards.
- essell ( @essellburns@beehaw.org ) 3•11 months ago
🤷
I’ve known him for over 30 years so don’t expect me to agree
- jasory ( @jasory@programming.dev ) 1•11 months ago
I fail to see how this is an example of abuse. If someone is lying to you about evidence they have of a crime, then why would that induce a false confession? At worst you would plea guilty in court, when all the evidence (or lack of) would be presented.
This argument requires assuming that people are literally mentally incapable of knowing what they have done. They would have to be so susceptible to manipulation that they would accept any statement as true.
- TWeaK ( @TWeaK@lemm.ee ) English5•11 months ago
The proverbial lawyer dog, just be sure not to ask for him.