Cross-posted from: https://feddit.de/post/5651275
Original link: https://www.newsweek.com/china-changing-tibet-english-name-1843391
- t3rmit3 ( @t3rmit3@beehaw.org ) 58•11 months ago
Renaming the place you’ve colonized is a standard settler-colonialist step in the erasure of the indigenous population. Just China being China.
- zerfuffle ( @zerfuffle@lemmy.ml ) 9•11 months ago
Beehaw once again back with the shit takes
- t3rmit3 ( @t3rmit3@beehaw.org ) 48•11 months ago
Guess I must be the Tiananmen Guy, because I seem to bring all the Tankies to the yard.
- zerfuffle ( @zerfuffle@lemmy.ml ) 6•11 months ago
Bringing up Tiananmen when there are documented instances (with actual evidence) of people getting run over by Israeli tanks and bulldozers in Gaza right now. Backed by the US government. With the US President actively spreading FUD about the scale and extent of atrocities. Nice.
Xizang is literally the phonetic transliteration for the region of the TAR. You’re basically saying that we should keep the name Western colonialists gave a territory because Western brains would get hurt if the name changed.
- t3rmit3 ( @t3rmit3@beehaw.org ) 36•11 months ago
I love how you Tankies just assume everyone but you is pro-US or something.
Yeah, absolutely; the Chinese government is evil just like Israel and the US’s governments. Glad we agree that they’re all imperialist genociders! Good talk!
- LicenseToChill ( @LicenseToChill@lemdro.id ) English7•11 months ago
For these people it’s the most grievous offense to criticize china and russia, and if you’re not constantly cheering for total annihilation of the West, you’re an ontologically evil libshit and deserve to be gulag’d
- zerfuffle ( @zerfuffle@lemmy.ml ) 4•11 months ago
By the widely recognized origin of the word (the Soviet Union rolling in tanks to suppress revolution in Hungary) and what it means (people in support of that use of force and tanks to suppress civilian revolution), supporters of Israel and the US are both “tankies.” Glad we agree, good talk!
- t3rmit3 ( @t3rmit3@beehaw.org ) 11•11 months ago
Wow, it’s absolutely hilarious that you’re trying to reclaim that term. Good luck! xD
- zerfuffle ( @zerfuffle@lemmy.ml ) 2•11 months ago
Tankie refers to those people who supported the Soviet use of tanks to quell the Hungarian revolution. Literally, it’s the exact same thing Israel is doing in Gaza.
- FaeDrifter ( @FaeDrifter@midwest.social ) English2•11 months ago
supporters of Israel and the US are both “tankies.” Glad we agree, good talk!
Based af, the tankies who support Chinese and Russian imperialism are equivalent to the tankies who support US and Israeli imperialism.
- zerfuffle ( @zerfuffle@lemmy.ml ) 3•11 months ago
For what it’s worth, there’s still no evidence that Chinese tanks actually killed anyone on 6/4. No journalists on the ground found any indication of a mass casualty event on Tiananmen Square, which directly contradicts the claims made by protestors that there was. The same cannot be said for Soviet tanks in Hungary or Israeli tanks in Gaza, where civilian causalities are rather well-documented.
- t3rmit3 ( @t3rmit3@beehaw.org ) 15•11 months ago
What’s saddest about this is that it took me literally 3 minutes to find images of tanks in Tiananmen running over student barricades, and blood streaks left on the ground afterwards, and bodies on the ground, but you don’t actually care at all, you’ll just cover your ears and push your narrative. You’re no better than people downplaying what Israel and America do, but you are so wrapped up in the righteousness of your ML rhetoric that you’ll just deny it and make up excuses for your side doing the same stuff.
- jarfil ( @jarfil@beehaw.org ) 3•11 months ago
took me literally 3 minutes to find images of tanks in Tiananmen running over student barricades, and blood streaks left on the ground afterwards
I’m not as fast browsing through the 2141 images you’ve linked, most of them of protesters, some burned down tanks, and someone on a bike dressed as a tank. Could you point to the exact images you’re referring to?
- zerfuffle ( @zerfuffle@lemmy.ml ) 2•11 months ago
Have you seen the blood streaks that tank tracks create? You can look at some of the videos in Gaza if you want to.
Try again, maybe this time with actual evidence instead of unfounded conjecture.
Edit: To clarify, I don’t think anybody is denying that people were hurt and killed on 6/4. Let’s make that clear. If anything, the Tank Man video shows that tank drivers were under orders to avoid civilian casualties.
- FaeDrifter ( @FaeDrifter@midwest.social ) English3•11 months ago
No journalists on the ground found any indication of a mass casualty event on Tiananmen Square
ON Tiananmen Square. This is fascist-level wordplay. The same journalists found a massacre all around Tiananmen Square in the rest of Beijing.
no evidence that Chinese tanks actually killed anyone on 6/4
This is just a straight up lie. Lots of people were killed in Beijing. Just possibly not any within the tiny physical confines of Tiananmen Square itself.
Yes, I fully understand what you say. You mean this, but honestly, does it add any value?
- zerfuffle ( @zerfuffle@lemmy.ml ) 3•11 months ago
Dude brought up a completely unrelated topic and used the “tankie” perjorative, a term that literally describes IDF supporters based on the actions of the IDF in Gaza.
- livus ( @livus@kbin.social ) 9•11 months ago
the name Western colonialists gave a territory because Western brains would get hurt
This is one of those cases where we really need to know the wishes of the people in question before we make assumptions.
Case in point: Myanmar. “Burma” is the British colonial name, however it is preferred by some of the freedom fighters fighting the Tatmadaw because “Myanmar” is associated with the Junta’s regime. And the real/pre-colonial name varies because the old name Myanma Pran is associated with a specific ethnic group, the Burmese.
- zerfuffle ( @zerfuffle@lemmy.ml ) 4•11 months ago
Freedom fighters funded by the US, with an office in Washington? Odd how it’s always Western-funded parties that want to maintain colonial names…
- jarfil ( @jarfil@beehaw.org ) 7•11 months ago
Could you refrain from generalizing and name calling? Your top comment was informative, you could leave it at that.
- Devi ( @Devi@beehaw.org ) English35•11 months ago
The government of China are not good people… is that controversial?
- t3rmit3 ( @t3rmit3@beehaw.org ) 21•11 months ago
Tankies hate this one simple truth…
- 4dpuzzle ( @tesseract@beehaw.org ) English1•11 months ago
More like CCP is a bunch of goons and criminals - starting with MF Mao, all the way up to Winnie the Xi virus poo.
- kbal ( @kbal@fedia.io ) 20•11 months ago
It’s remarkable that Tibetan culture has been so tenacious that there’s anything left of it today. If the government of 50 years ago had been able to exert the kind of control over its people that they do today, it’s hard to imagine that it wouldn’t have been fully eradicated by now.
- zerfuffle ( @zerfuffle@lemmy.ml ) 2•11 months ago
We’re talking about the same Tibet where, throughout history, almost every single major government position has been held by a Tibetan, right?
- zerfuffle ( @zerfuffle@lemmy.ml ) 18•11 months ago
Tibet is the romanized name for the region (based on Latin Tibetum). Tibetans call the Tibetan plateau “Bö” and Central Tibet “Ü-Tsang.”
The original Tibetan Empire (circa 600-800 or something) stretched across the regions of Amdo (modern-day Qinghai), Ü-Tsang (modern-day Tibet Autonomous Region), and Khan (split between TAR and Sichuan). Xizang is a more or less direct transliteration of Ü-Tsang, the territory that makes up the vast majority of the modern-day TAR.
Tibet refers to the entire plateau (also referred to as the Qinghai-Xizang plateau or the Himalayan Plateau) and Xizang refers to the territory made up by the TAR. Xizang has, for as long as I can remember, been the Chinese name for the TAR.
This is manufactured outrage with a clickbait title… About what can be expected from Newsweek.
Edit: for some additional context, China is usually pretty good about keeping local names. See: Ürümqi (Wulumuqi) from the name of Dzungar village there, Kashgar (Kashigaer/Kashi) which has had the same name for millennia and Harbin (Haerbin) from the name of the Manchu village there (among others). Understandably, because Hui and Uyghurs still live in Urumqi and Kashgar, Manchu still live in Harbin, and Tibetans still live in Xizang.
It really helps if you read the article before posting.
- zerfuffle ( @zerfuffle@lemmy.ml ) 12•11 months ago
Xizang is as much a “Chinese word” as Tsawwassen or Denali is an “English word.” It’s literally a direct phonetic transliteration of the Tibetan name used to describe the land occupied by the TAR.
- t3rmit3 ( @t3rmit3@beehaw.org ) 24•11 months ago
And it’s being used to try to distance themselves from the long standing international opposition to their illegal occupation and annexation of Tibet, and the genocide done to achieve it.
- zerfuffle ( @zerfuffle@lemmy.ml ) 9•11 months ago
Maybe Westerners shouldn’t get their panties in a twist about someone not using a name created by the West because Western colonialists couldn’t figure out a better transliteration?
- t3rmit3 ( @t3rmit3@beehaw.org ) 16•11 months ago
Okay, let’s use the name that the legitimate government of Tibet, the Central Tibetan Administration, endorses.
Oh look, it’s “Tibet”.
- zerfuffle ( @zerfuffle@lemmy.ml ) 4•11 months ago
The legitimate government of Tibet… According to who? Even the British (who had just finished shipping opium to China, looting Chinese palaces, and had every reason to antagonize the Chinese) didn’t recognize the independence of Tibet.
Regardless, this is the same Tibetan government that supported a caste system and ethnic discrimination, right? That Tibetan government? The same one whose leader has been called out by American media for being a pedophile?
- t3rmit3 ( @t3rmit3@beehaw.org ) 13•11 months ago
According to who?
According to Tibetans.
Regardless, this is the same Tibetan government that…
Yawn. Nothing but whataboutism from you, huh? “Who cares if China did multiple genocides and illegal annexations and disappears people who protest the government, the Tibetan government is also bad, so China should be allowed to ethnic cleanse them!”
No government is good, but other humans being bad isn’t an excuse to go and be bad as well. And let’s not pretend that China gives a crap about anything except expansion of their resources and influence. You’re not impressing anyone by defending a genocidal regime, it just comes off as being incapable of actually critically assessing your own side. You’re no different than the MAGA crowd who think America can do no wrong.
- livus ( @livus@kbin.social ) 7•11 months ago
@zerfuffle transliterations still belong to the transliterating language, eg “Bombay” or “Peking” may not sound English but they are.
It’s unclear from the article what the Tibetan government-in-exile spokesperson would like it to be called.
- BartsBigBugBag ( @BartsBigBugBag@lemmy.tf ) English8•11 months ago
The god king of a ethnostate with enshrined caste system and slavery? I don’t really care what he thinks.
- livus ( @livus@kbin.social ) 3•11 months ago
The spokesperson is hardly a god king.
Tenzin Lekshay, a spokesperson for the Central Tibetan Administration, the Tibetan government-in-exile, said of Beijing’s report.
- BartsBigBugBag ( @BartsBigBugBag@lemmy.tf ) English7•11 months ago
Ah, so he’s not the god king, just the representative of the god king in absentia, thanks for clarifying that for me. Doesn’t change that I don’t respect anyone who represents or is integrated into a caste-based ethnostate, but it’s good information nonetheless.
- livus ( @livus@kbin.social ) 3•11 months ago
Sure, I’m not asking you to respect anything in particular.
The only placenames mentioned in the article are Chinese or English.
Got me wondering what the actual Tibetans would call it (both those inside Tibet and those outside it).
- zerfuffle ( @zerfuffle@lemmy.ml ) 4•11 months ago
That’s fair, but I think it loses the distinction between different transliteration strategies. For example, phonetic transliteration preserves far more of the original language than other methods. Transliteration is a necessary component of language: most common languages lack glottal stops and clicks, but it’s still important to be able to refer to places that are named with glottal stops and clicks.
In that regard, the TAR has always been referred to as Xizang in Chinese because the TAR covers the Ü-Tsang region. The lands of greater Tibet from the peak of the Tibetan Empire are now parts of Qinghai, Sichuan, Arunachal Pradesh, Sikkim, Kashmir. The unified region of greater Tibet has, in recent history, always been དབུས (Ü) and གཙང་ (Tsang). This is pronounced ue-tsang according to Tibetan Pinyin (phonetic transcription) and Xizang according to transliteration - running through the possibilities, I’m struggling to find an exonym in Mandarin that would be closer in pronunciation.
The traditional name of the region is བོད་ (Bhö). The name Tibet is itself an import from the English. Given the degree of funding the Tibetan government-in-exile receives from the US (an English-speaking country), I’d suggest that the Tibetan government-in-exile has a strong financial incentive for maintaining English…
- livus ( @livus@kbin.social ) 5•11 months ago
@zerfuffle the exiles seek the political goodwill of other nations, so presumably they also have a strong incentive to be intelligible to people in those nations. Would be interesting to know if they call it Bhota when they are in India.
When I am fundraising I use names people recognise.
- zerfuffle ( @zerfuffle@lemmy.ml ) 3•11 months ago
Absolutely, there’s a good point.
Doesn’t change the fact that ethnic Tibet and the TAR are not necessarily the same territorial entity. Tibetans make up a significant proportion of the population of Qinghai, for example.
Hey y’all! This thread has sparked a lot of discussion and it is obviously a very tense topic being discussed at a tense time in the world. With the way the thread has been going, the mod team doesn’t feel we can moderate this thread thoroughly enough to make it follow our rules, so I am going to lock it.