How can you tell “deradicalizing” from “being friendly” by just seeing people sit at the same table? One of the strategies for deradicalization, is precisely having positive experiences with people the group/sect has vilified.
here you are now also arguing that we need to be nice to nazis
No. In a nazi-free area, just kick the nazi, that’s easy. What I’m arguing is that you should give the benefit of the doubt to the other 9 people. Don’t assume.
on another post you argued heavily with multiple users that white privilege is not real
Let me clear that up:
White privilege is real. So are others.
I’ve always tried to avoid using my privileges.
People assuming I’m too privileged have fucked me over.
These are not either-or.
I thought maybe you were very young, or confused, and tried to have empathy and explain some concepts
Not very young, maybe confused, maybe living in a different society, most likely with different life experiences.
Thank you for trying to explain some concepts. I learned some stuff in that other post, and I’m grateful for that (even if the conclusion was depressing).
the things you have been saying here, in multiple places, are white supremacist talking points
If you need help stopping, that is your responsibility
Is this another “learn the book of forbidden words” situation?
I refused to read into white supremacist propaganda any further than seeing their basic manipulation strategies, and that was a few decades ago. Are you asking me to read the updated version?
No. In a nazi-free area, just kick the nazi, that’s easy. What I’m arguing is that you should give the benefit of the doubt to the other 9 people. Don’t assume.
All areas should be nazi-free areas. If any of them are truly attempting to de-radicalize someone they would know that there is a time and place for it, and out in general society is not it.
Is this another “learn the book of forbidden words” situation?
This is very reductive, dismissive and exactly the kind of thing a white supremacist would say to try and justify saying something shitty. Which is exactly PotentiallyAnApricot’s point. I could chock it up to naivety, but just as an outside observer on this thread and others, I don’t think it is.
I refused to read into white supremacist propaganda any further than seeing their basic manipulation strategies, and that was a few decades ago. Are you asking me to read the updated version?
Dismantling systemic oppression personally, interpersonally, and in greater society is a constant process. Especially as a white person. Saying you did some research decades ago and are all good now is not how it works.
Now, this is reductive and dismissive. “Tow it outside the environment” is not an option, you can only create reservation, concentration, and general areas.
If any of them are truly attempting to de-radicalize someone they would know that there is a time and place for it, and out in general society is not it.
Part of de-radicalization is reinsertion into general society. Can’t be done outside. Studies have shown that de-radicalization actually lags way behind reinsertion. What you’re proposing are lifelong reeducation camps.
is a constant process. Especially as a white person.
The what? Not sure if you realize, but stuff like this “Especially as a [whatever]” is what pushes people over the line.
Dismantling systemic oppression personally, interpersonally […]
Saying you did some research decades ago and are all good now is not how it works.
Part of de-radicalization is reinsertion into general society.
After they are no longer a nazi. If they are still a nazi, they belong outside society.
stuff like this “Especially as a [whatever]” is what pushes people over the line.
Ok, to be be less specific, especially as the people that benefit from systemic oppression we have to keep more on it than those do not benefit from it. I used white people because we are currently the largest benefactors of systemic oppression. If that “pushes you over the line” you were too close to line to begin with.
This is not what I said.
The meaning most people get from what you said is that you learned how white supremacists manipulate people decades ago, then disengaged. Again, in order to keep getting better, you have to keep learning, and for fucking sure chuds will keep trying to distract and minimize.
I think you have misunderstood what the other user was saying, and/or are not thinking through what you are saying.
You said “All areas should be nazi-free areas”, but unless you are advocating for putting them up against a wall, that is not possible to do. That is what the other user meant by “‘Tow it outside the environment’ is not an option”. By the way, I think that expression is a reference to this; it’s not very relevant to this topic, but might help illustrate the point they were making.
Another alternative, like the other user mentioned, would be “lifelong reeducation camps”; but not only does that have questionable morality behind it, it’s also not a view that merges very will with the idea of abolishing the police and especially prison systems, which so many on the left, especially the more libertarian left (which btw a lot of Beehaw seems to lean towards, including me, and I think the other user as well), subscribe to.
Like the saying goes: “don’t attribute to malice what can be explained by stupidity/ignorance”, or something like that; there are real life examples of former Nazis/white supremacists changing their views just from interacting with other people outside that group. When you think of a Nazi, you’re probably thinking about the smart and actually evil ones that tend to be at the top, but a large part (I think the vast majority) are just the product of fear and ignorance (think average German during WW2); and when you try to erase/separate those people from society, one way or another, you’re often just feeding into that ignorance and fear.
How can you tell “deradicalizing” from “being friendly” by just seeing people sit at the same table? One of the strategies for deradicalization, is precisely having positive experiences with people the group/sect has vilified.
No. In a nazi-free area, just kick the nazi, that’s easy. What I’m arguing is that you should give the benefit of the doubt to the other 9 people. Don’t assume.
Let me clear that up:
These are not either-or.
Not very young, maybe confused, maybe living in a different society, most likely with different life experiences.
Thank you for trying to explain some concepts. I learned some stuff in that other post, and I’m grateful for that (even if the conclusion was depressing).
Is this another “learn the book of forbidden words” situation?
I refused to read into white supremacist propaganda any further than seeing their basic manipulation strategies, and that was a few decades ago. Are you asking me to read the updated version?
All areas should be nazi-free areas. If any of them are truly attempting to de-radicalize someone they would know that there is a time and place for it, and out in general society is not it.
This is very reductive, dismissive and exactly the kind of thing a white supremacist would say to try and justify saying something shitty. Which is exactly PotentiallyAnApricot’s point. I could chock it up to naivety, but just as an outside observer on this thread and others, I don’t think it is.
Dismantling systemic oppression personally, interpersonally, and in greater society is a constant process. Especially as a white person. Saying you did some research decades ago and are all good now is not how it works.
Now, this is reductive and dismissive. “Tow it outside the environment” is not an option, you can only create reservation, concentration, and general areas.
Part of de-radicalization is reinsertion into general society. Can’t be done outside. Studies have shown that de-radicalization actually lags way behind reinsertion. What you’re proposing are lifelong reeducation camps.
The what? Not sure if you realize, but stuff like this “Especially as a [whatever]” is what pushes people over the line.
This is not what I said.
It is very much an option, and one that works. You can’t have an inclusive society if you accept members that want other members dead.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance
After they are no longer a nazi. If they are still a nazi, they belong outside society.
Ok, to be be less specific, especially as the people that benefit from systemic oppression we have to keep more on it than those do not benefit from it. I used white people because we are currently the largest benefactors of systemic oppression. If that “pushes you over the line” you were too close to line to begin with.
The meaning most people get from what you said is that you learned how white supremacists manipulate people decades ago, then disengaged. Again, in order to keep getting better, you have to keep learning, and for fucking sure chuds will keep trying to distract and minimize.
I think you have misunderstood what the other user was saying, and/or are not thinking through what you are saying.
You said “All areas should be nazi-free areas”, but unless you are advocating for putting them up against a wall, that is not possible to do. That is what the other user meant by “‘Tow it outside the environment’ is not an option”. By the way, I think that expression is a reference to this; it’s not very relevant to this topic, but might help illustrate the point they were making.
Another alternative, like the other user mentioned, would be “lifelong reeducation camps”; but not only does that have questionable morality behind it, it’s also not a view that merges very will with the idea of abolishing the police and especially prison systems, which so many on the left, especially the more libertarian left (which btw a lot of Beehaw seems to lean towards, including me, and I think the other user as well), subscribe to.
Like the saying goes: “don’t attribute to malice what can be explained by stupidity/ignorance”, or something like that; there are real life examples of former Nazis/white supremacists changing their views just from interacting with other people outside that group. When you think of a Nazi, you’re probably thinking about the smart and actually evil ones that tend to be at the top, but a large part (I think the vast majority) are just the product of fear and ignorance (think average German during WW2); and when you try to erase/separate those people from society, one way or another, you’re often just feeding into that ignorance and fear.