The Biden administration is asking Congress to provide more than $13 billion in emergency defense aid to Ukraine and an additional $8 billion for humanitarian support through the end of the year.
We’re not sending anyone to their death. Ukrainian soldiers are doing the fighting, not American ones.
If Russia doesn’t lose on the battlefield, Putin will invade Poland next, and then one of the following happens:
NATO responds. Nukes fly. Game over.
NATO doesn’t respond, proves itself useless, and dissolves. Putin divides and conquers Europe, marching his army all the way to Portugal. Putin, emboldened, launches an attack on the US. Nukes fly. Game over.
Putin is Hitler with nukes. He’s trying to start World War 3. We’re trying to stop him before the conflict spirals out of control. If we fail, everybody dies.
We’re not supporting Ukraine out of the goodness of our hearts. We’re doing it to save our own asses.
NATO doesn’t respond, proves itself useless, and dissolves. Putin divides and conquers Europe, marching his army all the way to Portugal. Putin, emboldened, launches an attack on the US. Nukes fly. Game over.
That’s assuming the EU won’t respond, or for that matter Poland being incapable of pushing back Russia all by itself. There’s about exactly one single reason why the Poles aren’t parading on the Red Square right now: Because they’re in NATO, which acts as a leash. Baltics pretty much have the same attitude but are smaller so they’d simply follow Poland. Finland would get pulled into it because of their own attitude and Estonia, and with them, without fail, Sweden. At which point Germany would have a hard time holding back and then it’s guaranteed that the French will be in the fray, and that’s presuming they wouldn’t have been as soon as Poland lets loose because principle.
Now the US in its usual exceptionalism might be blissfully unaware of those dynamics, and the Kremlin because the FSB reports what the Kremlin wants to hear, but it’s true nontheless. But in the end once the EU is involved the US will be, too, because the US can’t countenance Europe doing something militarily without joining in. Reluctantly and in a limited fashion, probably, just as they’re reluctant now. Germany has pretty much stopped trying to bully the US into providing more things because we’ve reached the limits of what the US will do (that is, Germany could pressure the US to deliver Abrams by tying Leos to the US also delivering tanks, but providing Taurus cruise missiles won’t be tied to ATACMS because apparently that’s a US red line).
That’s assuming the EU won’t respond, or for that matter Poland being incapable of pushing back Russia all by itself.
Them and what army? The only countries on Earth with enough firepower to stop Putin without launching any nukes are the US and China, and China is on Putin’s side.
There’s about exactly one single reason why the Poles aren’t parading on the Red Square right now: Because they’re in NATO, which acts as a leash.
I assume this is some kind of joke.
Finland would get pulled into it because of their own attitude and Estonia, and with them, without fail, Sweden. At which point Germany would have a hard time holding back and then it’s guaranteed that the French will be in the fray, and that’s presuming they wouldn’t have been as soon as Poland lets loose because principle.
Last I heard, Finland and Sweden had been taken over by Nazis, and Germany was in the middle of being taken over by Nazis. I’d expect them to welcome Putin’s invasion with open arms. France is too busy fighting itself to fight anyone else.
But in the end once the EU is involved the US will be, too, because the US can’t countenance Europe doing something militarily without joining in.
At which point we’re back to square one. The reason we’re having this discussion is because, in the opinion of @Roody15@reddthat.com, it is “very sad” that the US isn’t going to sit back and let Putin start World War 3.
The only countries on Earth with enough firepower to stop Putin
…include Ukraine being drip-fed western surplus. France alone would roll over Russia, the Poles aren’t as strong but they’re fucking nuts determined because history.
I assume this is some kind of joke.
Then you don’t know any Poles. You know it’s one of those Eastern European countries where the first line of the national anthem goes “Our country isn’t lost yet”, referring to centuries upon centuries of Russian imperialism. As the joke goes:
Two Polish veterans meet at a bar. Asks one: “Wawrek, if tomorrow both the Germans and the Russians invade, who do we shoot at first?”, replies the other: “Oh that’s an easy one. The Germans: Business before pleasure”.
That sure isn’t how it went last time Poland got invaded. Their country was lost until the Allies liberated them. Same with France.
Determination does not equal manpower or firepower. If it did, there wouldn’t be any Russian soldiers fighting in Ukraine right now; they’d have been defeated already. That’s why we’re sending Ukraine war supplies.
The polish army isn’t using cavalry any more. And France has nukes this time around and just for the record: France’s half-surrender was the strategically optimal move in their position.
Since the EU doesn’t have a standing army, they cannot respond. Without NATO, Putin can drive straight to the Atlantic and there’s not a goddamn thing Europeans can do about it.
NATO doesn’t have a standing army. Like the EU, it has member states. EU joint Command and Control is rather lacking but if you think that means that the EU won’t respond even though it is a defensive alliance you’re delirious.
Ya know there’s a country called Ukraine that’s involved in this, right? They are people defending their country and they’re going to do that with or without US support. And Ukraine will win in the end. Russia doesn’t have enough to successfully occupy Ukraine against an organized resistance which is where things could go without military aid from the west.
While a resistance would ultimately be successful, it would take a decade or more. And it’s likely a Russian occupation of Ukraine would involve genocide. Do you want that?
Sending military aid isn’t about trying to change the outcome of the war. Russia’s defeat is inevitable. The military aid is about helping Ukraine defeat Russia sooner, without the need for a prolonged resistance campaign, and that reduces the loss of life.
Oddly enough the US makes it back in many ways as it’s being fulfilled by US military contractors. So it’s not as much of a loss financially as it seems. It’s also geopolitically a good cause as bolstering support in Europe has netted a ton of contracts Russia was fulfilling for gas and coal. Ukraine is also a US ally and likely future member of both the EU and NATO, so it makes sense to support them when invaded for absolutely no rhyme or reason by pretty much the most consistent adversary of the US throughout modern history. But I’m sure whatever you said makes sense too.
I agree it has helped the us economy. Wow we are the real heroes here… Europe now turns to us for gas/energy … military contracts getting filled… ohh who cares about the actual Ukrainians dying at least they are not US citizens …
So you’d just abandon them to Russian imperialism? Yeah that’s historically gone fucking great for Ukrainians. I can’t possibly imagine why they’d be against that.
Ukraine was fighting the invasion before the West started sending them guns anyway. Ukraine is choosing to fight whether it has support or not.
You want to abandon the people in Ukraine to fuckers with SS Totenkopf patches on their uniform? Yeah that’s historically gone fucking great for Ukrainians. I can’t possibly imagine why they’d be against.
There are tons of Russian Nazis, don’t kid yourself.
“Second, the Kremlin launched “managed nationalism”, an attempt to co-opt and mobilise radical nationalist militants, including neo-Nazis, as a counterweight to an emerging anti-Putin coalition of democrats and leftist radicals.”
Zelenskiy just a couple of weeks ago did a photo op with Azov fighters. The Ukrainian government gives money and arms and propaganda support to Neo-Nazis. No other government does that. Even Russian Neo-Nazis are fighting for Ukraine. Yes the Ukrainian government is ethnonationalist.
Zelenskiy:
There are indisputable heroes. Stepan Bandera is a hero for a certain part of Ukrainians, and this is a normal and cool thing. He was one of those who defended the freedom of Ukraine. But I think that when we name so many streets, bridges by the same name, this is not quite right.
Such a brave push back on the Nazis. He has a point. Naming every street and bridge after Bandera is going to be confusing, I’m sure the Nazis will agree.
If your proposed plan for dealing with the likes of Azov is “let Putin’s Russia win” then you do not actually have a problem with the far right being in power in Ukraine, you just have a preference in your flavour of far right. Frankly if I were in Zelenskiy’s position and a fascist told me he wanted to go die to defend democracy from other fascists, I’m not about to discourage him, I’m gonna chalk it up as a win-win
Are you reframing the arming and promoting of SS worshipping white supremacists as some sort of clever antifascist tactic? Seriously anybody helping with resurrection of the genocidal Nazi ideology in Ukraine needs to be tried at Nuremberg. Russian conservative brainworms are far from “master race must cleanse the land of untermenschen” type shit, of course that’s better. How is this even a debate?
Where is the off ramp here? Despite billions and constant propaganda Russia is not going to lose this war on the battlefield.
How much money and how many people are we going to just send to their deaths just because prolonging the conflict weakens an adversary to US.
It’s really sad :(
We’re not sending anyone to their death. Ukrainian soldiers are doing the fighting, not American ones.
If Russia doesn’t lose on the battlefield, Putin will invade Poland next, and then one of the following happens:
Putin is Hitler with nukes. He’s trying to start World War 3. We’re trying to stop him before the conflict spirals out of control. If we fail, everybody dies.
We’re not supporting Ukraine out of the goodness of our hearts. We’re doing it to save our own asses.
That’s assuming the EU won’t respond, or for that matter Poland being incapable of pushing back Russia all by itself. There’s about exactly one single reason why the Poles aren’t parading on the Red Square right now: Because they’re in NATO, which acts as a leash. Baltics pretty much have the same attitude but are smaller so they’d simply follow Poland. Finland would get pulled into it because of their own attitude and Estonia, and with them, without fail, Sweden. At which point Germany would have a hard time holding back and then it’s guaranteed that the French will be in the fray, and that’s presuming they wouldn’t have been as soon as Poland lets loose because principle.
Now the US in its usual exceptionalism might be blissfully unaware of those dynamics, and the Kremlin because the FSB reports what the Kremlin wants to hear, but it’s true nontheless. But in the end once the EU is involved the US will be, too, because the US can’t countenance Europe doing something militarily without joining in. Reluctantly and in a limited fashion, probably, just as they’re reluctant now. Germany has pretty much stopped trying to bully the US into providing more things because we’ve reached the limits of what the US will do (that is, Germany could pressure the US to deliver Abrams by tying Leos to the US also delivering tanks, but providing Taurus cruise missiles won’t be tied to ATACMS because apparently that’s a US red line).
Them and what army? The only countries on Earth with enough firepower to stop Putin without launching any nukes are the US and China, and China is on Putin’s side.
I assume this is some kind of joke.
Last I heard, Finland and Sweden had been taken over by Nazis, and Germany was in the middle of being taken over by Nazis. I’d expect them to welcome Putin’s invasion with open arms. France is too busy fighting itself to fight anyone else.
At which point we’re back to square one. The reason we’re having this discussion is because, in the opinion of @Roody15@reddthat.com, it is “very sad” that the US isn’t going to sit back and let Putin start World War 3.
…include Ukraine being drip-fed western surplus. France alone would roll over Russia, the Poles aren’t as strong but they’re fucking nuts determined because history.
Then you don’t know any Poles. You know it’s one of those Eastern European countries where the first line of the national anthem goes “Our country isn’t lost yet”, referring to centuries upon centuries of Russian imperialism. As the joke goes:
Two Polish veterans meet at a bar. Asks one: “Wawrek, if tomorrow both the Germans and the Russians invade, who do we shoot at first?”, replies the other: “Oh that’s an easy one. The Germans: Business before pleasure”.
That sure isn’t how it went last time Poland got invaded. Their country was lost until the Allies liberated them. Same with France.
Determination does not equal manpower or firepower. If it did, there wouldn’t be any Russian soldiers fighting in Ukraine right now; they’d have been defeated already. That’s why we’re sending Ukraine war supplies.
The polish army isn’t using cavalry any more. And France has nukes this time around and just for the record: France’s half-surrender was the strategically optimal move in their position.
If anyone launches nukes, our whole species dies. We’re trying to prevent that outcome.
Since the EU doesn’t have a standing army, they cannot respond. Without NATO, Putin can drive straight to the Atlantic and there’s not a goddamn thing Europeans can do about it.
NATO doesn’t have a standing army. Like the EU, it has member states. EU joint Command and Control is rather lacking but if you think that means that the EU won’t respond even though it is a defensive alliance you’re delirious.
Mask off moment. Ukrainians aren’t even people to you. Most of them are conscripts forced to be on the front line.
Ya know there’s a country called Ukraine that’s involved in this, right? They are people defending their country and they’re going to do that with or without US support. And Ukraine will win in the end. Russia doesn’t have enough to successfully occupy Ukraine against an organized resistance which is where things could go without military aid from the west.
While a resistance would ultimately be successful, it would take a decade or more. And it’s likely a Russian occupation of Ukraine would involve genocide. Do you want that?
Sending military aid isn’t about trying to change the outcome of the war. Russia’s defeat is inevitable. The military aid is about helping Ukraine defeat Russia sooner, without the need for a prolonged resistance campaign, and that reduces the loss of life.
Oddly enough the US makes it back in many ways as it’s being fulfilled by US military contractors. So it’s not as much of a loss financially as it seems. It’s also geopolitically a good cause as bolstering support in Europe has netted a ton of contracts Russia was fulfilling for gas and coal. Ukraine is also a US ally and likely future member of both the EU and NATO, so it makes sense to support them when invaded for absolutely no rhyme or reason by pretty much the most consistent adversary of the US throughout modern history. But I’m sure whatever you said makes sense too.
I agree it has helped the us economy. Wow we are the real heroes here… Europe now turns to us for gas/energy … military contracts getting filled… ohh who cares about the actual Ukrainians dying at least they are not US citizens …
Honestly disgusting
So you’d just abandon them to Russian imperialism? Yeah that’s historically gone fucking great for Ukrainians. I can’t possibly imagine why they’d be against that.
Ukraine was fighting the invasion before the West started sending them guns anyway. Ukraine is choosing to fight whether it has support or not.
You want to abandon the people in Ukraine to fuckers with SS Totenkopf patches on their uniform? Yeah that’s historically gone fucking great for Ukrainians. I can’t possibly imagine why they’d be against.
There are tons of Russian Nazis, don’t kid yourself.
https://theconversation.com/putins-fascists-the-russian-states-long-history-of-cultivating-homegrown-neo-nazis-178535
I’m sorry, who is actually running Ukraine? Is it the Azov lot and their like?
One of the two sides of this war has warmongering ultranationalists in government. It’s not Ukraine.
Zelenskiy just a couple of weeks ago did a photo op with Azov fighters. The Ukrainian government gives money and arms and propaganda support to Neo-Nazis. No other government does that. Even Russian Neo-Nazis are fighting for Ukraine. Yes the Ukrainian government is ethnonationalist.
Zelenskiy:
Such a brave push back on the Nazis. He has a point. Naming every street and bridge after Bandera is going to be confusing, I’m sure the Nazis will agree.
If your proposed plan for dealing with the likes of Azov is “let Putin’s Russia win” then you do not actually have a problem with the far right being in power in Ukraine, you just have a preference in your flavour of far right. Frankly if I were in Zelenskiy’s position and a fascist told me he wanted to go die to defend democracy from other fascists, I’m not about to discourage him, I’m gonna chalk it up as a win-win
Are you reframing the arming and promoting of SS worshipping white supremacists as some sort of clever antifascist tactic? Seriously anybody helping with resurrection of the genocidal Nazi ideology in Ukraine needs to be tried at Nuremberg. Russian conservative brainworms are far from “master race must cleanse the land of untermenschen” type shit, of course that’s better. How is this even a debate?
Why won’t Russia stop the war?
Why did Vladimir Putin claim that Ukraine isn’t a country?
Why does Russia purchase Iranian suicide drones, and launch drone and cruise missile attacks on Ukrainian cities every week?
Why do Russians want to kill all Ukrainians when they were considered brothers 2 years ago?