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Is this actual money in this case or is this more designated monetary amounts of goods, ie the worth of the guns and tanks and other things we’ve been giving them that were just collecting dust over here?
Because that’s what most of the past monetary support was. No actual money was involved and so didn’t really cost us anything.
Yea we just have billions of dollars of military equipment that popped out of thin air and of course will not be replenished in the next trillion dollar military budget.
You have trillions of dollars worth of military equipment from the cold war mothballed or in storage.
Most of it will never see use because it’s outdated technology. There are thousands of planes, tanks and miscellaneous vehicles just sitting out in the desert waiting to be scrapped or reactivated.We have billions of dollars of military equipment that was made 10+ years ago and has been sitting around since then because we have no reason to use any of it.
To the point where military commanders are begging Congress to not make the military budget so big because it’s being wasted on building more assets that aren’t seeing any use.
your answer to your question
the worth of the guns and tanks and other things we’ve been giving them that were just collecting dust over here
How about 40 billion to support getting some bitches… on a Single Payer Healthcare program.
Y’all bitches deserve hella healthcare but like… gotta do war and stuff I guess
Fire’s gettin low, better throw some more paper on it to keep it going.
Still waiting for Biden to ask for $40 billion for US aid
Wait no more! https://www.cnbc.com/2023/05/14/biden-administration-has-canceled-66-billion-in-student-debt.html
I’m frankly shocked conservatives are doing everything they can to prevent it!
Well, yes. But I also worry that student loan aid is now a red herring to ignore a lot of other issues.
“Wow, I wish Biden would spend 40 billion on US priorities”
“Here’s how Biden helped cancel 66 billion in student debt.”
“Actually that’s a red herring.”Like, I don’t love Biden either and wish he were more progressive in a WIDE variety of areas, but we should also give credit where credit is due. Also between the Inflation Reduction Act ($400b), American Rescue Plan ($1.9t), and the Infrastructure bill ($1t) there are literally trillions of dollars in additional domestic spending that would not have existed otherwise.
Are those trillions going into the pockets of Americans? Even calling the student debt relief a win compared to the original promise is disingenuous.
All I’m saying is: every politician will have a few wins. Normally it’s just enough to satiate the base. Biden has done that. But that doesn’t make him a progressive and realistically we need more than that, as a country.
Corpo leader for a corpo country, but it’s not where most people actually want to be.
No, I agree those trillions won’t go directly to people and time will tell how well it’s spent. Some of that money has gone to individuals, some has gone to companies and orgs that build things like roads, and some has been and will be skimmed off the top because of course it will be. I think the overall benefits will outweigh the costs and it’s better to do something rather than nothing but who knows.
Also, he did try to cancel 400b in student debt which was shot down by the conservative Supreme Court, and so he’s used the legal tools he has left to cancel as much as he can.
Can definitely agree on asking more from our leaders, and I think the good things Biden has done definitely come from the voter base shifting left on a lot of issues, and not because he’s some sort of progressive champion.
OK, yeah. I don’t disagree with that.
Yay for working debate on Lemmy.
A lot of those trillions are funding business expansion, which will fund high paying jobs so more of economic stimulus, a bit like the progress administration from the 1930s. But in this case, we are building domestic manufacturing capabilities which will employ people as well as help with decarbonization.
Business is generally won’t get the money unless they spend it, so it is much better than trickle down.
- jackpot ( @jackpot@lemmy.ml ) 2•11 months ago
what areas shpuld he be more progressivd in
He’s been a mixed bag on the environment, opening up more oil and gas leases on federal land (although he did just create a new national monument around the Grand Canyon to create more protected land which was a big win for Arizona tribes and environmentalists). I also wish that he would make a harder voting rights push if only to make the issue more visible even if he can’t do much without congress. And while the border policy is an improvement (not saying much compared to Trump lol), there is still a lot of capricious and arbitrary enforcement against asylum seekers and immigrants that the Biden admin has purposefully continued. Tbf border policy is ultimately something Congress needs to deal with, so it’s not going to see any specific changes for awhile.
Medicare
Packing the courts
Regulating student loans
Providing more urban housing
Fighting domestic drug use
Addressing homelessness
More transit
Fund schools
Unions
Can we go ahead and just declare a state of emergency on the climate crisis? Or do we need the rest of the states to burn down as well? Shit’s getting me frustrated
More money being pissed away on Ukraine? Wow. That Zalensky guy must have photos of a naked Biden with some White House aide or whatever. This is a joke and a massive abuse of US taxpayer money. When does this end? How is the US benefitting from this? Oh, we aren’t at all. Hmmm. I wonder if there is something behind the scenes going on here? Like some other motive? I mean, it’s the Biden’s…… sort of a shady track record.
And don’t gimme a bunch of whataboutisms either. Don’t care. This Ukraine thing is a farce. Enough. We’re done.
It’s kind of funny seeing these kind of comments on Lemmy and playing the “alt-right or tankie” game before you see someones instance.
What we as the west get from helping Ukriane, is soft power in that it sends a message to other dictators around the world that we won’t just sit back and let them plough into another country, and while we might not start WW3 over it, we will support them to make it hard as possible for you.
For some people, everything has to be a conspiracy. Logical, easily verifiable reasons for things can’t possibly be the truth to them. Especially if it comes from the opposing political party, it is automatically false to them. Even if verifiable.
Honestly I wasn’t sure of the benefit either, but your response makes so much sense. I don’t know why there always has to be conspiracies for obvious stuff.
This is giving “the UN is an effective international governance body” energy.
When does this end?
When Russia is defeated.
How is the US benefitting from this?
It’s sending a message to authoritarians. Don’t invade countries or we’ll send the other country stuff to make it go badly for you. This has a chilling effect on authoritarians, making them refrain from this kind of activity. This improves global security, which results in better trade, which improves the global economy. The US being on the globe benefits from this.
Also, do you like how much you’re paying for groceries? Could it be this war is causing a disruption in grain supply? You know that stuff that goes into bread, the feed that cows eat, etc? Yeah, I know people on the internet are all blaming their own governments (in basically every country, LOL) for high grocery prices, because no one wants to say that’s it’s Putin. Sure there is probably some assholes jacking up the prices more than necessary, but do you think all the corporations and all of the governments got together and decided to do this? Nope the inflation, the high grocery prices, it’s because of Putin’s bullshit.
Not to mention all of the influence campaigns Russia is running on the internet. You know where you’re constantly being influenced by the internet towards burning down the capital of your own country? That’s a disinformation campaign designed to destabilize NATO countries. Taking down Putin will lessen that buillshit. I say lessen because after seeing Russia’s success other countries like China are getting in on that game now too. But one asshole at a time.
We’re giving Ukraine our table scraps that are too nice to toss, but too expensive to keep. They’re using them to defeat a long-standing geopolitical foe at no costs to American lives.
Ukraine doesn’t need dirt to get our help, this is the best money the US has spent since Lend-Lease.
Supporting free and democratic Ukraine is preferable to letting fascist Russia become neighbors with NATO.
I agree wholeheartedly with supporting Ukraine, but Russia has had a land border with NATO for twenty years at this point. They just pretend they don’t so that they can cry “NATO expansionism!”
Where is the off ramp here? Despite billions and constant propaganda Russia is not going to lose this war on the battlefield.
How much money and how many people are we going to just send to their deaths just because prolonging the conflict weakens an adversary to US.
It’s really sad :(
- argv_minus_one ( @argv_minus_one@beehaw.org ) 14•11 months ago
We’re not sending anyone to their death. Ukrainian soldiers are doing the fighting, not American ones.
If Russia doesn’t lose on the battlefield, Putin will invade Poland next, and then one of the following happens:
- NATO responds. Nukes fly. Game over.
- NATO doesn’t respond, proves itself useless, and dissolves. Putin divides and conquers Europe, marching his army all the way to Portugal. Putin, emboldened, launches an attack on the US. Nukes fly. Game over.
Putin is Hitler with nukes. He’s trying to start World War 3. We’re trying to stop him before the conflict spirals out of control. If we fail, everybody dies.
We’re not supporting Ukraine out of the goodness of our hearts. We’re doing it to save our own asses.
NATO doesn’t respond, proves itself useless, and dissolves. Putin divides and conquers Europe, marching his army all the way to Portugal. Putin, emboldened, launches an attack on the US. Nukes fly. Game over.
That’s assuming the EU won’t respond, or for that matter Poland being incapable of pushing back Russia all by itself. There’s about exactly one single reason why the Poles aren’t parading on the Red Square right now: Because they’re in NATO, which acts as a leash. Baltics pretty much have the same attitude but are smaller so they’d simply follow Poland. Finland would get pulled into it because of their own attitude and Estonia, and with them, without fail, Sweden. At which point Germany would have a hard time holding back and then it’s guaranteed that the French will be in the fray, and that’s presuming they wouldn’t have been as soon as Poland lets loose because principle.
Now the US in its usual exceptionalism might be blissfully unaware of those dynamics, and the Kremlin because the FSB reports what the Kremlin wants to hear, but it’s true nontheless. But in the end once the EU is involved the US will be, too, because the US can’t countenance Europe doing something militarily without joining in. Reluctantly and in a limited fashion, probably, just as they’re reluctant now. Germany has pretty much stopped trying to bully the US into providing more things because we’ve reached the limits of what the US will do (that is, Germany could pressure the US to deliver Abrams by tying Leos to the US also delivering tanks, but providing Taurus cruise missiles won’t be tied to ATACMS because apparently that’s a US red line).
- argv_minus_one ( @argv_minus_one@beehaw.org ) 2•11 months ago
That’s assuming the EU won’t respond, or for that matter Poland being incapable of pushing back Russia all by itself.
Them and what army? The only countries on Earth with enough firepower to stop Putin without launching any nukes are the US and China, and China is on Putin’s side.
There’s about exactly one single reason why the Poles aren’t parading on the Red Square right now: Because they’re in NATO, which acts as a leash.
I assume this is some kind of joke.
Finland would get pulled into it because of their own attitude and Estonia, and with them, without fail, Sweden. At which point Germany would have a hard time holding back and then it’s guaranteed that the French will be in the fray, and that’s presuming they wouldn’t have been as soon as Poland lets loose because principle.
Last I heard, Finland and Sweden had been taken over by Nazis, and Germany was in the middle of being taken over by Nazis. I’d expect them to welcome Putin’s invasion with open arms. France is too busy fighting itself to fight anyone else.
But in the end once the EU is involved the US will be, too, because the US can’t countenance Europe doing something militarily without joining in.
At which point we’re back to square one. The reason we’re having this discussion is because, in the opinion of @Roody15@reddthat.com, it is “very sad” that the US isn’t going to sit back and let Putin start World War 3.
The only countries on Earth with enough firepower to stop Putin
…include Ukraine being drip-fed western surplus. France alone would roll over Russia, the Poles aren’t as strong but they’re fucking nuts determined because history.
I assume this is some kind of joke.
Then you don’t know any Poles. You know it’s one of those Eastern European countries where the first line of the national anthem goes “Our country isn’t lost yet”, referring to centuries upon centuries of Russian imperialism. As the joke goes:
Two Polish veterans meet at a bar. Asks one: “Wawrek, if tomorrow both the Germans and the Russians invade, who do we shoot at first?”, replies the other: “Oh that’s an easy one. The Germans: Business before pleasure”.
- argv_minus_one ( @argv_minus_one@beehaw.org ) 2•11 months ago
That sure isn’t how it went last time Poland got invaded. Their country was lost until the Allies liberated them. Same with France.
Determination does not equal manpower or firepower. If it did, there wouldn’t be any Russian soldiers fighting in Ukraine right now; they’d have been defeated already. That’s why we’re sending Ukraine war supplies.
The polish army isn’t using cavalry any more. And France has nukes this time around and just for the record: France’s half-surrender was the strategically optimal move in their position.
- argv_minus_one ( @argv_minus_one@beehaw.org ) 1•11 months ago
If anyone launches nukes, our whole species dies. We’re trying to prevent that outcome.
Since the EU doesn’t have a standing army, they cannot respond. Without NATO, Putin can drive straight to the Atlantic and there’s not a goddamn thing Europeans can do about it.
NATO doesn’t have a standing army. Like the EU, it has member states. EU joint Command and Control is rather lacking but if you think that means that the EU won’t respond even though it is a defensive alliance you’re delirious.
We’re not sending anyone to their death. Ukrainian soldiers are doing the fighting, not American ones.
Mask off moment. Ukrainians aren’t even people to you. Most of them are conscripts forced to be on the front line.
Ya know there’s a country called Ukraine that’s involved in this, right? They are people defending their country and they’re going to do that with or without US support. And Ukraine will win in the end. Russia doesn’t have enough to successfully occupy Ukraine against an organized resistance which is where things could go without military aid from the west.
While a resistance would ultimately be successful, it would take a decade or more. And it’s likely a Russian occupation of Ukraine would involve genocide. Do you want that?
Sending military aid isn’t about trying to change the outcome of the war. Russia’s defeat is inevitable. The military aid is about helping Ukraine defeat Russia sooner, without the need for a prolonged resistance campaign, and that reduces the loss of life.
Oddly enough the US makes it back in many ways as it’s being fulfilled by US military contractors. So it’s not as much of a loss financially as it seems. It’s also geopolitically a good cause as bolstering support in Europe has netted a ton of contracts Russia was fulfilling for gas and coal. Ukraine is also a US ally and likely future member of both the EU and NATO, so it makes sense to support them when invaded for absolutely no rhyme or reason by pretty much the most consistent adversary of the US throughout modern history. But I’m sure whatever you said makes sense too.
I agree it has helped the us economy. Wow we are the real heroes here… Europe now turns to us for gas/energy … military contracts getting filled… ohh who cares about the actual Ukrainians dying at least they are not US citizens …
Honestly disgusting
So you’d just abandon them to Russian imperialism? Yeah that’s historically gone fucking great for Ukrainians. I can’t possibly imagine why they’d be against that.
Ukraine was fighting the invasion before the West started sending them guns anyway. Ukraine is choosing to fight whether it has support or not.
You want to abandon the people in Ukraine to fuckers with SS Totenkopf patches on their uniform? Yeah that’s historically gone fucking great for Ukrainians. I can’t possibly imagine why they’d be against.
I’m sorry, who is actually running Ukraine? Is it the Azov lot and their like?
One of the two sides of this war has warmongering ultranationalists in government. It’s not Ukraine.
Zelenskiy just a couple of weeks ago did a photo op with Azov fighters. The Ukrainian government gives money and arms and propaganda support to Neo-Nazis. No other government does that. Even Russian Neo-Nazis are fighting for Ukraine. Yes the Ukrainian government is ethnonationalist.
Zelenskiy:
There are indisputable heroes. Stepan Bandera is a hero for a certain part of Ukrainians, and this is a normal and cool thing. He was one of those who defended the freedom of Ukraine. But I think that when we name so many streets, bridges by the same name, this is not quite right.
Such a brave push back on the Nazis. He has a point. Naming every street and bridge after Bandera is going to be confusing, I’m sure the Nazis will agree.
If your proposed plan for dealing with the likes of Azov is “let Putin’s Russia win” then you do not actually have a problem with the far right being in power in Ukraine, you just have a preference in your flavour of far right. Frankly if I were in Zelenskiy’s position and a fascist told me he wanted to go die to defend democracy from other fascists, I’m not about to discourage him, I’m gonna chalk it up as a win-win
There are tons of Russian Nazis, don’t kid yourself.
“Second, the Kremlin launched “managed nationalism”, an attempt to co-opt and mobilise radical nationalist militants, including neo-Nazis, as a counterweight to an emerging anti-Putin coalition of democrats and leftist radicals.”
Why won’t Russia stop the war?
Why did Vladimir Putin claim that Ukraine isn’t a country?
Why does Russia purchase Iranian suicide drones, and launch drone and cruise missile attacks on Ukrainian cities every week?
Why do Russians want to kill all Ukrainians when they were considered brothers 2 years ago?
This is the best summary I could come up with:
A political divide on the issue has steadily grown, with the Republican-led House facing enormous pressure to demonstrate support for the party’s leader, Donald Trump, who has been very skeptical of the war.
As a supplemental request, the package the White House is sending to Congress falls outside the budget caps both parties agreed to as part of the debt ceiling showdown earlier this year.
“I look forward to carefully reviewing the Administration’s request to make sure it is necessary and appropriate,” McConnell said in a statement, “to keep America safe, secure our borders, support our allies, and help communities rebuild after disasters.”
Sen. Marco Rubio, R-Fla., released a statement urging Congress to swiftly pass critical funding for disaster relief programs while separately considering military aid for Ukraine.
Members of Congress have repeatedly pressed Defense Department leaders on how closely the U.S. is tracking its aid to Ukraine to ensure that it is not subject to fraud or ending up in the wrong hands.
Now, though, House Speaker McCarthy is facing pressure to impeach Biden over unproven claims of financial misconduct and it’s not clear whether a quick show of support for Ukraine could cause political damage in what’s expected to be a bruising 2024 reelection campaign.
I’m a bot and I’m open source!
Squeeze ut all in one pckage so people have a hard time saying no because they would deny Ukraine help…
White House national security spokesman** John Kirby is a joke.**