I’ve been seeing a lot of anti-voting sentiment going around. Can’t believe I have to say this, but you need to vote. Not only is there more to the election than just the president. (State policy, Senate, house), but not voting is not an act of protest. C’mon guys
Seriously. I get feeling like you don’t have much of a choice, but not voting is just giving up. Like, you’re actively removing the little choice you have and handing democracy over to an overt fascist.
Literally
Literally, indeed. (An up vote wasn’t enough)
Third party candidates still exist and are legitimate options to vote for despite what everyone wants you to believe.
Maybe for some local elections. But you really need heavy support, otherwise you’re dividing the vote which can lead to more harm. Some places have rank based voting now though which makes it possible to vote for 3rd parties without dividing the vote. Hopefully that becomes more common.
I get where you’re coming from. I’m definitely in favour of a ranked choice voting approach cause it does a lot more to get rid of the spoiler or dividing vote fallacy.
The entire spoiler or dividing vote hoax is based on this false assumption that the voters carry the responsibility for not voting for a “lesser evil” candidate when that burden of responsibility should instead be on the nominee for not doing enough in their power to win over votes.
With the current election, Biden is being a complete dumbass and is hemorrhaging support from Arab Americans and young people because of his refusal to stop giving weapons and aid to Israel and properly withholding those until a full and permanent ceasefire is reached. He’s also losing support from Hispanics, though the reasons there are more to do with how he hasn’t been doing enough to better the lives of working-class people.
Arab Americans and young people aren’t going to turn around and vote for Trump, or in the off chance he receives a conviction before November, whoever else the Republican nominee will be. They’re more likely to vote third-party or independent or not vote at all, and unfortunately with the latter, that’s when the burden of responsibility becomes shared.
I’m voting for a 3rd party in the general bc my state is a staunchly blue state (every presidential election since 1972) so my vote counts more that way. If I lived in a swing state like WI, PA, GA, AZ, CO, etc, I would definitely vote Dem.
both wouldn’t be happy if you wanted actual democracy (like economic democracy for instance). both will utilize the police and alphabet agencies if they will find it necessary. PRISM was exposed under Obama. Democrats Kennedy and Johnson did not stop COINTELPRO. I’m not even convinced by reducing this to which of them will be weaker and less competent, like you realize the senile octogenarian Biden would fit the description, but that actually makes it easier to control him. Trump on the other hand is harder to control for his own trustees, but at the same time would mean way less stability. Ousting either along with the whole system that brought them into power is a must and I’m quite convinced that it will not be an easy task in either case, especially if you consider that the police force is always a fertile ground for all of the most disgusting trash of the ruling class, like homophobia, racism or hatred towards the poor. Democrats can promise defending the police but will they? Or wouldn’t that be shooting themselves not in one foot, but both?
And lastly, speaking of another Trumpist coup. The situation in the US is not yet comparable with e.g. Spain in the 30s. But back to Biden’s incompetency, y’all should study how the Azaña’s government absolutely botched the coup in July 1936. Then the lack of sufficient cynicism towards the government with “anarchists” taking ministerial positions and disarming the workers was what largely contributed to the Francoist triumph. With no illusions towards the government, there would be no mechanism to blunt the militant social tensions to come but force. And if you are afraid to actually fight for your ideas, you’re already unfree.
100% agree with this. All of it.
I’m deeply dissatisfied with Biden. I’m angry with him for not pressuring Israel, and I was already angry at him even before that. And I will likely end up voting against him in the primary because of it. But realistically:
(1) He will be the Democratic nominee for President
(2) He is an infinitely better choice than the fascist who already attempted a coup once
(3) Either he or Trump will be the next president
There really is only one way to go in the general. Especially if you’re here on Blahaj, which means you’re either LGBTQ+ or at least friendly to us.
Cool; I didn’t know Blahaj was a 2SLGBTQ+ instance. I just thought it was a kind and accepting space, like Beehaw.
Not to derail this thread too much, but I assume Allies are welcome to join? If Beehaw ends up leaving Lemmy, I’ll need to make a new account somewhere.
I’m not the authority here, but my understanding is that yes, allies are welcome.
At least, I hope so, since I originally came here as an ally who was also questioning some things about myself.
I stand with Palestine, and I’ll be voting in the US. Yes, I’m voting for Biden as the lesser of two evils, but I’m also voting for a whole lot of other really good people who are going up against some truly evil people. I’ve got people attacking my schools and libraries at the local level. Not voting to spite Biden will hurt my town a whole lot more than it would hurt Biden.
That’s what I don’t understand from the don’t vote crowd.
Okay, nobody left leaning voted. Now what?
I’d argue it’s not ultra-leftism if both options are reactionary. On the contrary, when going through such a turbulent period, to call yourself a socialist/Marxist and yet tail any anti-worker Democratic crisis cabinet is to compromise yourself just like the Mensheviks did for 8 months in 1917 when they happily took their warm seats and then didn’t do shit to improve the desperate position of the Russian workers and denounce the Russian imperialism.
So what to do instead of voting? Join the revolutionary communists to end the endless cycle of disappointment and picking lesser evil in the system that gives no real agency to 99% of the society.
While I agree with communism in theory, some of the language on the page regarding revolution is problematic IMO and is not going to gain the party any favors.
Also some of the stuff they have listed on the site is pretty hilarious:
The German Revolutions in 1918 and 1923, and the British General Strike in 1926, show us that even in the economic powerhouses of capitalism, the contradictions of capitalism cannot be fundamentally overcome. In fact, in 1968, the largest revolutionary general strike in history shook France. This was a country that had been lauded for its high living standards, and it occurred during a period of economic upswing!
Literally every example they list of “the contradictions of capitalism cannot be fundamentally overcome” is an example of a country that is still capitalist lol. (Maybe because the real life examples of communism objectively haven’t turned out that great.) So they’ve continued to overcome them. And sure you can argue a country like France has a lot of socialist programs and legislation but it’s certainly still a capitalist country.
Because to resolve them a revolutionary situation is necessary first, and then some class leadership ready to lead it towards victory. Instead the impasse or temporary fixes for social peace will just continue into years of unresolved tensions erupting every once in a while but not achieving much. I.e. when
(1) when it is impossible for the ruling classes to maintain their rule without any change; when there is a crisis, in one form or another, among the “upper classes,” a crisis in the policy of the ruling class, leading to a fissure through which the discontent and indignation of the oppressed classes burst forth. For a revolution to take place, it is usually insufficient for “the lower classes not to want” to live in the old way; it is also necessary that “the upper classes should be unable” to live in the old way; (2) when the suffering and want of the oppressed classes have grown more acute than usual; (3) when, as a consequence of the above causes, there is a considerable increase in the activity of the masses, who uncomplainingly allow themselves to be robbed in “peace time,” but, in turbulent times, are drawn both by all the circumstances of the crisis and by the “upper classes” themselves into independent historical action.
lol if you want to defend your community, join SRA instead of relying on a state that will not back down when tried, just like the French bourgeoisie used an enemy army to suppress an uprising by the French workers 150 years ago.
Lol, I do far more for my community than joining some neutered gun club, but thank you for your concern.
yet the black panthers actually taught us the value and the power of the oppressed being able to defend themselves. imagine what if they were still around for the BLM movement if it wasn’t for cointelpro.
On the other hand, not voting or voting uncommitted in the presidential primary is completely fine. Literally no issue with that
unexpected commentary to come from a mod.
based tho. https://www.vote.org/
With some of the rhetoric I was seeing I felt like it was my responsibility to say something.
Love u bae <3
tyyyy
Doing anything other than voting for Biden is essentially a vote for Trump.
Many people in Poland half a year ago felt similarly about ousting the ruling national conservatives as well during the last election with historically high turnout. 6 months in and the new government proved to be just as much of a reactionary enemy of the people as that of PiS. They almost fired at the protesting farmers recently
Nothing has changed in terms of abortion laws either, which still remain one of the most draconic in Europe. Recently a young Belarusian woman was murdered in downtown Warsaw in broad daylight.The only response of the “progressive” government? MORE FUNDING TO THE COPS, just roughly a year after another woman was severely traumatized and humiliated by the police just because she sought medical attention after taking an abortion pill. The so-called “lefts” don’t even have enough respect for the female/AFAB voters to leave the government – why would they, after all they WILL employ the media to do this sort of fearmongering in 4 years to save their comfy positions and call it a day.
All this in a (de facto) multi-party system with relatively weak role of the president, so what sort of mental gymnastics must that be in the US where the Democrats were not able to do jackshit about Supreme Court overturning Roe v. Wade and there was and is not even a major party to hold them accountable for that, only the people capable of overthrowing their broken system.
And it’s like that anywhere in the world in this rotten system – best those professional politicians screaming about fascism and creeping dictatorship can offer us is just “fascism with a human face”. Their policies fuel the openly reactionary side precisely because they are just as morally bankrupt, worthless and entrenched.
In case of the Polish parliamentary left, some of them quite likely won’t leave the government because they fear the other 2, bigger parties will seek to form one with the ultra-right Konfederacja. And if that’s the case, then it speaks volumes about the condition of reformists who more and more haven’t been able to form a government that offers anything of value to the broad working masses ever since the Soviet Union dissolved and they felt confident that now it’s time to focus mostly on identity politics and economically become more and more in line with the neolibs, because without KGB backing, the Stalinized, bureaucratic communist parties who nonetheless weren’t really a revolutionary threat lost relevance almost universally.
But then once capitalism’s honeymoon caused by the opening up of new markets in the 90s was over and Marx was once again proven right by crisis after crisis, those foolish lackeys of the ruling class so certain about the end of history didn’t see the writing on the wall and now are running like headless chickens wondering why after three decades of failing their traditional voter base they still hardly manage to stay in power just merely because some people know that the ultra-right is no alternative – and erroneously, but sometimes at least with some cynicism – assume that the reformists will take any notes and change their ways, much like hoping a narcissistic, abusive partner would change their ways – to no avail.
Whats the point? To chose between disney fascist and a consevative fascist?
BoTh SiDes ArE ThE SaMe
At what point did they say that? Of course the Republicans are miles worse than the Democrats, but why should people sit there and be like “oh, let me just vote for genocide lite when the other party is genocide standard”
Edit: slight edit since Kbin notifs are weird.
Yes! It has and always will be about voting for the person you dislike the least. You need to grow up if you think otherwise
You need to do some critical thinking. Vote for the person who best aligns with your beliefs, not which of the two big names you hate less.
You need to do some critical thinking. The reason one would dislike one candidate more is because they align less with beliefs.
This is a very burguerfull comment
Vote for an independent candidate. People have this wild notion that voting for a third-party candidate means you’re throwing your vote away.
You’re not. You’re voting for the candidate that best represents your values. People who say otherwise have fallen for the brainrot talking point that’s been around since Ross Perot ran in '96.
If only Perot had just won those extra 370 electoral college votes.
Hm, almost as though Democrats should be pressured by voters to abolish the electoral college… wonder what will change their stance on that.
Maybe… if the Democrats saw their support weakening as a result of their terrible policies… hmmmm.
Democrat-leaning states are already working towards that.. The idea is that if they have 270 electoral votes worth of states signed up, they will all agree to change their electoral delegates to follow the national popular vote, effectively ending the electoral college. It’s not really a democratic push, but it’s an idea that would only be popular with the party that aligns with the national majority. They currently have 205 EVs committed.
Huh, thanks for making me aware of this. I’ll look into this more. Genuinely appreciate the insight.
Nothing wild about it.
Either
- vote for the only worthy contender against Trump
or
- vote for someone who isn’t that contender and therefore not for the only worthy contender Biden
If you decide for the latter you’ll risk to never really vote again. Read the signs on the wall. It’s the “What would I have done if I was a german under Hitler” phase, the USA citizens are in right now. If your prefer the stuff that’s going on in Hungary under Orban or worse, go on, vote 3rd party.
Edit:
Germany is in a similar situation in the next federal parliament election although we got more weighty contenders in the parliament than only dems and reps. Our Biden vote equals to 2 parties (labour party and the greens) out of 6. The remaining 4 parties would be a Trump vote (AfD). The outcome of that election would define the politics for unforseeable future and was and is the reason for the mass protests in germany.
Edit 2:
We’d probably have more leeway as the AfD would not straight be elected but mainly the CDU who would choose the chancelor (Either Söder or the german Trump light Friedrich Merz). There would be many more compromises made with AfD (farfarfar right) with a CDU chancelor than under a new labor (SPD) and Greens chancelor. The dream would be if The Greens got a majority. Then Habeck would be chancelor.
Oh, I’ll be voting.
For Claudia De La Cruz.
EDIT: People hard mad about this lmao
Okay I mean this is marginally better, at least you’re voting, but still until some sort of change happens a vote third party is a vote thrown away
I’m not suggesting voting third party or protest voting, I personally plan on voting for whoever has the Democrat party’s backing come the general. However, I do want to ask, what do you believe is a realistic plan for gaining that change?
The people that are voting third party or not voting are doing so because they believe that’s the best option for change. Even if I disagree with that, how can we show them a better path?
Looked her up. What a legend! Will definitely be using her name in plave of blank “vote third party” from here out: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claudia_de_la_Cruz
First of all, I will absolutely be voting in the general, for whoever has the backing of the Democrat party, whether that be Biden or someone else if something unforseen happens. However, I think it’s important to recognize a few key key matters.
-
Not voting is an act of protest, but it is a largely ineffective form of protest. Protesting is the way the people voice their concerns, and deliberately not voting is in fact a way of voicing concern. However, this is an emotional, unobjective form.
-
Biden, and the overall US war machine, is complicit in genocide. This fact should not be denied for the sake of an election. Simply voting third party is unobjective, this results in the outward fascists taking power, but at the same time, toeing the line results in further entrenchment of liberalism.
How can we resolve the former 2 statements? Simple. Protest loud, as much as you can, during the primaries. Force Biden’s hand.
Just as we can hold people responsible if they vote third party during the general, or not voting, we can also hold Biden accountable. This isn’t simply a matter like Single Payer Healthcare, which would take tremendous effort with the support of congress to pass, this is something in his hands.
I’ll reiterate: if your goal is to help the Palestinian people, there is only one correct path: protest as much as you can, as early as you can, until Biden caves and ceases the genocide. If you do not protest Biden now, while we still have the chance to change his course, then we risk protests lasting even longer and hurting his chances during the General, backfiring.
The Condition for Victory is a swift, loud, uncontestable wake-up call for Biden, followed by rallied support once genuine, positive change is shown to happen. Biden has already started to feel the pressure, and has begun sending some petty aid. Biden cannot risk losing the general, and we cannot risk Biden losing the general either, nor can we stand by and watch Biden support genocide.
Vote in the Primary against Biden, and vote in the General for Biden.
Thank you. So tired of people who never vote in primaries complaining about how the candidates are bad.
Sucky candidates are not merely the product of failing to vote in the primaries. Both parties have systems that favor money and endorsement by legacy establishment figures over popularity, and additional policies are added when a popular antiestablishment candidate slips into office (like Occasio-Cortez).
It’s telling in 2020 the DNC elected the most right-wing, establishment candidate that wasn’t a far right Billionaire when we had numerous more moderate options.
The US is in the iron grip of boomer conservatives clinging to power as demonstrated by multiple officials succumbing to age and dementia. The people really don’t have much say.
-
Always vote, whenever you have the option.
General election, primary, whatever.
You should always make your voice heard. There’s also more important elections going on that are more directly impactful to you (i.e. local elections).
Absolutely. Vote every time.
Just don’t assume your vote has an actual action beyond what it reality allows. Research it and know the actual bottom of the plinko board. Understand spoilers, and decide if your theoretical principled vote is worth an effective boost for a candidate you even more strongly dislike.
Conclusion: game theory, and the limitation of realistic choice matters.
I’m specifically talking about the disparity between the number of votes during a presidential election year versus a midterm election year.
Always vote during midterms, not only does it dictate control of congress (which I would hope people realize the importance of, especially given the lack of Biden’s agenda that has passed Congress…), but local elections are typically more impactful to your life.
School boards, state congress, etc etc.
It’s also the only way to get to a place where we use an alternative election system, such as ranked choice voting.
This! I’m voting in 5 different elections this year!
We had a special election to fill a vacated mayoral seat (only 10% of registered voters showed up) and then the recent primary. In May, we have a local election for city council and school board seats and also a separate run-off primary election. And then of course the general election in November.
if voting changed shit it would have been made illegal. don’t legitimize slavery by acts of expressing gratitude for being able to pick your masters.
Not sure how to tell you this, but the Right has spent years and millions of dollars trying to make voting illegal for its opponents.
So… I guess it does change shit, by your definition.
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/03/us/politics/trump-voter-rolls.html
The people of USA succesfully beat two tyrannical systems in 18th and 19th century so why wouldn’t they now if the current state of things deteriorates in that direction. And so did the Russians who have lived under the tsarist tyranny. Or the people oppressed by the colonial regimes who have not attained their independence as a gesture of good will. Or Cubans overthrowing Batista. Or Chileans ousting Pinochet. Or South Africans overthrowing the apartheid.
All of that required militancy. Polite pleas are not a language tyrants understand. But, by extension, blind faith in electoralism has failed when the KPD failed to respond with proper militancy to the Reichstag fire decree in 1933. The militancy must be proactive. One should not be deluded that a “progressive” government will welcome with open arms any advanced, massive expression of social anger any more than a reactionary one would. See France where it is basic street knowledge to wear at least a solid fucking helmet with plexiglass visor to any protest if you don’t want to say, lose an eye under the oh-so-benevolvent rule of the liberal Macron.
Aaron Bushnell had a gun pointed at him as he died.
Yes, that’s all true. But that’s a good argument for “You shouldn’t only vote,” not “You shouldn’t vote.” See the difference?
If the only action we take is voting, then the tyrants who aren’t constrained by law will win. If the only action we take is direct action, then the tyrants win as soon as they outgun us. If we use voting to advance things in civil society inside the lines and direct action to keep the tyrants playing inside the lines, we win.
Reactionaries, like real fucking fascist shock troops are actually a minority compared to interwar period. Most Trump voters are just tired, frustrated and desperate, not actually fanatically rallying behind him. His bravado may resonate with some social anger but it will probably run out of steam as soon as people find out he offers no real solutions. On the contrary, Nazis and fascists were able to rally a significant number of strata of the population. So let’s compare the relevance and position of the groups upon which the Italian, Spanish and German fascists based themselves:
- Demobilized soldiers and mercenaries like the Moroccans in Spain and Freikorps
Nowadays many people join the military in the US just to get free college and healthcare etc. And yet they still fall short of their recruitment targets. See the recent protests in solidarity with Aaron Bushnell. Also after WW I most armies were infantry based and there was initially mass unemployment amongst the veterans.
- Medium to large-scale landowners/peasants
1-3% of the society. And if anything, their militancy at least makes the ruling class tremble, lest it was adopted by workers.
- Clergy
Even in the US religion is losing relevance
- Students
Massively shifted to the left almost everywhere
- Small business owners
They are still getting screwed every once in a while by the ruthless law of the accumulation of capital but still mostly they might be partly correct but still go into some major distortions in their understanding of things. Petty bourgeoisie is not a revolutionary class. But at the same time, they no longer compete with other small business owners of other (Jewish) ethnicity but actually rely heavily on unskilled migrant labor
- Organized criminals
Crime has mostly economic causes. For massive spike in crime that could serve as the manpower pool for the fascist militias, the system would actually need to be built on a prejudice against white males, not just in /pol/cel projections grounded in not seeing shit primarily through economic lenses.
So even if the unavoidable aggravation of capitalism’s agony happens sooner:
- to reject the possibility of emerging from it victorious is actually a defeatist internalization of downplaying the potential of own class, just what the porky wants
- to tail the liberals will not serve in any way to convince the less politically educated people that we are any alternative…
- …and if anything, ends up being a self-fulfilling prophecy for their besieged fortress myth about some leftist conspiracy
- most dictators came to power not by election, but by a coup or manipulation
- even if we think about the most notable example when they did, that is in Germany in the 30s, it’s all actually vastly different. While KPD’s sectarianism towards SPD and the refusal to take advantage of several revolutionary situations were what led to it not being able to successfully withstand Hitler, there are some key differences here:
Democrats are as much of a millionaire club as Republicans. SPD was a massive workers’ organization. CPUSA actually endorses Biden because that’s what most IMCWP parties not in power do: legitimize the status quo and maintain a watered-down programme. No diff here with CPRF in Russia. And such sort of passivity and conservatism is what permeated the leadership of KPD under Thälmann and it is the reason why a revolutionary party aspiring to stand as an independent force that won’t ever let itself be co-opted into the system is needed.
I get that feeling of FOMO. But ask yourself, which do you think matters more against millions of other voters whom you’ll never talk to:
a) voting
b) organizing to defend yourself against the Trump regime, by force if necessary where a loud and consequent group can easily sway thousands if not millions under the right conditions. That vs trying to basically convince people why one shade of the same color is better than the other which serves mostly narrowing their worldview and proving that you are not willing to stand up for your ideas.
…slavery???
stagnant wages, no real influence on the politics because the Overton’s window is so narrow and all major parties filled with out of touch millionaires and also just because the political system does not really benefit a common person in a meaningful way, the cost of living and debt crisis, needing to join the military for basic public services, creeping corporate censorship and oligopolization creating a generation of dependent, depressed people with growing self-censorship instinct?
Ok but none of this is slavery. I wouldn’t even call it indentured servitude. There’s a million miles between things sucking and being literally enslaved
Yeah I mean police brutality exists and although a peaceful revolution would be preferable to adventurist bloodshed, we must reckon with the high odds of the powers that be not giving up their power to “the mob” peacefully, this bears no comparison to the rampant abuse of the rural south before the Second American Revolution. But still for real emancipation I believe a third revolution is needed, first the colonial rule, then chattel slavery and now the oligarchic, imperialist capitalism need to go. The continued existence of the previous two was an impendance to the proper development of the United States (the latter two also a humanitarian tragedy, first directly, the latter indirectly*) while nowadays it is also and probably even more importantly, not just anymore due to the climate crisis but also due to hawkish foreign policies being on the rise – a threat to the continued existence of humanity.
* I think I get your point. We used to have that buffer called the middle class that for decades ensured some relative social peace and fostered some faith in the American dream because some people were able to advance socioeconomically. But we are the first generation to actually have a worse standard of living than our parents, so all of that is crumbling. I used to be a software developer but the absolute shitshow that has been the 4-month long failed job hunt in the current state of the market forced me to become a food delivery driver. It all feels so disempowering when you feel your efforts amount to nothing. And I believe it’s not just me. Lots of young people have been scammed into wasting their time and money pursuing degrees that produced no ROI for them. I now really think I should’ve trained to become an electrician or other deficient, decently paying blue-collar vocation but now if I don’t find at least a support/admin job in IT soon it will be another couple years of debt and uncertainty and feeling easily replaceable, cheated out of future after being promised an irrationally exaggerated market value.
But I feel like again, I’m not alone in this sentiment and soon we’ll see another wave of people training for highly demanded blue collar jobs, the market will saturate and some people will again end up feeling duped into another Ponzi scheme with their livelihoods. Because capitalism is a permanent crisis of overproduction, chaos and speculation, a dog eat dog world
inb4 Ayn Rand’s “Anthem”
I don’t really care about getting rich. I actually care about my craft and believe everyone should be able to do what they are passionate about without the fear of hunger, not receiving healthcare or homelessness. Most commercial software development is just as wasteful as marketing anyway.
its funny(?) how i only see posts criticising ppl for not voting/voting third options but i dont currently see anyone actually advocating for doing that
Might depend on how you sort or what instances you have blocked. I’ve seen a few personally, although not in blahaj.zone as far as I can remember.
Not vote squad was in this very apartment😞
It depends on defederation and users banned from this instance (lemmy.blahaj.zone), instance blocks don’t have any affect on user visibility, just communities and posts to those communities.
I stand with Israeli and Palestinian civilians, all of whom are victims of Hamas and the Netanyahu regime.
Browbeating people into voting is not helpful.
If you are against both dominants in a two-party system, vote for the party more likely to win, so that the margin would become bigger, the winning party would split and the losing party would have unpredictable change.
I’m in the second world, just thinking.
In the US this seems to have already happened once, in the 50s.
