Biden shares many of my values and goals, but because he isn’t perfectly aligned with my values and goals, I’m voting Trump, a man that shares NONE of my values and goals, as a protest. What could go wrong?
Jfc nobody said to vote for trump.
Realistically what do you hope to accomplish by voting for someone else or not voting?
Goddammit I never said not to vote. What do you hope to accomplish by only voting?
Okay then answer the other part of my question. That’s why I included it.
What other part?
Realistically what do you hope to accomplish by voting for someone else?
I’m not expecting to accomplish much of anything by voting for someone else. I prefer direct action.
It’s the logical conclusion of your statements
It’s sarcasm. And voting for a minor party candidate is a vote for Republicans.
Democracy works by criticizing your elected officials until they make necessary changes. People NEED to be putting Biden’s feet to the fire to end the genocide in Palestine. Just because Trump would be worse doesn’t make what Biden is doing ok. Criticism of one isn’t an endorsement of the other. And Biden NEEDS the votes of everyone criticizing his response to the genocide. Instead of harassing people trying to end genocide, you should be asking why Biden supports genocide more than the young voters who he needs to win in November.
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What values and goals does Biden share with Leftists, other than not being as far-right as the Republicans?
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Who said anything about voting for Trump? I myself am voting Biden most likely because he isn’t as bad as Trump, but I share practically nothing with his views.
What person is criticizing Biden from the left but actually voting for Trump, other than the strawman you created?
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I’m trying to think what values biden actually shares with me.
Just out here telling on yourself, huh?
Lol
just because trump would be worse, doesnt mean biden isnt really bad
Biden isn’t in charge of Israel.
he approved a lot of money to go there
and he did absolutely nothing to stop it
Well you are a fucking idiot who doesn’t understand what a vote is.
A+ genocide shilling here.
Correction: “I’m voting for Biden to make sure the things that are happening right now continue to get slowly better, instead of getting immediately and significantly worse.”
That’s what they said back in '96 when I voted for Ralph Nader. Now we’re on the precipice of American democracy falling to fascism, if not now, then very likely in 2028. That doesn’t look to me anything like slowly getting better.
Some things have definitely improved in that time, e.g. the recognition of same-sex marriage, or the nascent resurgence of labor unions. Those things have been the result of slow, tough, hard work by the grassroots.
In that same time, though, the Democrats have been slowly helping to put the mechanisms of a fascist state in place, like the PATRIOT ACT, FISA, neutering the 4th Amendment, bolstering the Espionage Act, and setting up collaborative efforts between state police, Federal agencies, and the corporate sector to crush protest movements.
That said, the world is indeed shades of grey, and I voted for Biden in 2020 to stay fascism, if only for a little bit. It’s better to vote for the right-wing candidate versus the fascist candidate. I want to vote for him again, but there are some lines that must never be crossed, and I can’t in good conscience vote for a President enabling genocide. (The fact that both candidates do is madness.)
Maybe my calculus would be different if there were a reasonable chance that Democrats would do the things that are within their power to do to check the rise of fascism, but I have no confidence of that, as the track record shows otherwise.
Edit: Auto-correct damage.
Hey! So I know you are getting people being snarky and whatnot, but I have a legitimate question.
Could you address the question regarding how the Democrats are at least the party that are at least making slow progress, as opposed to not voting against the party that will turn the country into a Christian theocracy if given the chance?
Like I understand that you don’t like either candidate - neither do we - but realistically, we know the winner will be either a Republican or a Democrat. Why not support the one that at least won’t regress the country 500 years?
Because incrementalism is how we got to this situation in the first place.
Damn, you’re way more succinct than I am.
I’ve covered a lot of it in other replies, so to keep it brief by analogy: It’s like a survivor from a foundered ship clinging to a bit of flotsam (assuming there’s no chance of timely rescue) rather than swimming for land in the distance. The flotsam keeps him safe from drowning for the moment, but thirst or hypothermia will do him in within days at the outside. His only chance to survive long-term is to abandon it and set to swimming.
The Democrats in this analogy are the flotsam, if it wasn’t obvious. Bill Clinton got into office in 1992, after 12 years of Republican Presidents, and quickly made it clear that he represented the status quo, clinging-to-flotsam choice, rather than making things better. I believed that the long-term health of democracy required making the hard choice to swim for it. I wasn’t smart enough to predict the exact shape of the future back then, but here we are, on the edge of slipping below the waves. That’s the opposite outcome of making things better.
The Democrats don’t even understand the threat of right-wing populism, so they can’t counter it. (It’s not even clear that they would, if they did.) The way to save our democracy, therefore, is to fight for something better.
What is the plan to fight for something better? Like… I’m really not trying to be snarky, I swear, but voting for any party that is not R or D on election Day is never going to result in someone other than someone from one of those two parties being president. That just won’t happen. So unless there is an alternative path for change, I don’t see the point of voting for someone other than a democrat to at least mitigate the damage
Well, should everybody who lives in Alabama vote Republican, because there’s zero chance of anybody but a Republican winning? Do those people have a plan besides throwing their votes away? Or is voting about choosing the candidate that would represent your views, regardless of the odds of winning?
That would be great advice if we weren’t standing at the literal precipice of fascism. Fascism is a storm (pardon the unintentional pun towards QAnon) threatening to overtake us. If ever there was a time to suck it up and choose the “flotsam” to survive to fight another day, it’s now.
The Republicans, aka the Fascists, have a large and cohesive voting bloc, driven by propaganda and fear, that will vote for them just because they’re not Democrats, regardless of the fact that they are known criminals, grifters, and will vote for things that hurt them. This is not the time to divide into ideological factions and hope we make it.
It seemed to me back in the 1990’s that Republicans want to drive the car straight at the precipice at full speed, and Bill Clinton was content to simply lay off the accelerator and coast toward it. I’m not such a canny political analyst that I could predict the exact shape of the future back then, but here we are, at the precipice.
Biden is slowly worse, Trump is quickly worse. Liberalism is not about moving leftward, it’s about continuing Capitalist hedgemony.
Lol things have not gotten slowly better through voting ever or have you somehow missed the last 100 years?
Have you?
Well no, which is why I ain’t voting. Since it’s useless
You best not be in a swing state. We’ll anyway, if you aren’t going to be trying to improve things with the rest of us, shut up and get out of the way
Voting doesn’t improve anything. We’ve already said this
Then shut up and let the grown ups talk
No u
Do you unironically believe that life hasn’t gotten better for literally everyone that’s not a Rockefeller since 1924? I think you may have brain damage. Which is a much more treatable condition than it was in 1920 fucking 4.
Correlation is not causation Life has gotten better because of all the struggles outside of voting
This is literally the stupidest argument I’ve ever heard in my life, and that’s saying quite a lot.
Stupid, stupid take.
Voting does not change the whims of the powerful. The powerful continue to push their will. Currently that will is massacres and genocide. Genocide Joe does have a nice ring to it. Vote or don’t. The powerful will get their way.
Voting is easy in my state, so I will. My current amusement is voting against incumbents. Preference is Third Party > Democrat > Republican.
Beyond the entertainment of voting: keep building mutual aid networks, be a good neighbor and use a pokeball if 2025 gets ghastly.
Well no the powerful won’t get their way if we unite and scare them into submission. Our societies have done this multiple times
I agree that united we can push back. Creating horizontal power structures provide the push. Ideally, dismantling hierarchical power over merely scaring it.
Bro. Some elections are decided by 10s of votes. I live in a city of 12k people, on smaller elections less than a thousand people vote. By simply showing up you are effectively voting for 10-12 people. It takes like 10 minutes, and ballot measures alone make it worth while.
If you don’t vote you’re just accepting what those who did vote collectively voted for.
I don’t accept shit. I oppose the whole system and I live my life in way meant to destabilize it.
I’m sure those women facing prosecution for seeking a medically necessary procedure will find great comfort in knowing about your destabilization efforts, as they endure their noble suffering in coming years.
How has voting stopped that result, or the ongoing genocide again?
Hahaha you don’t vote to try to destabilize the system. You realize a large percentage of Americans never vote right? Not voting isn’t special at all !
Their username can answer this question
terrifying comment
It’s not funny anymore. Stop voting for Trump ironically.
Just… Stop. Please.
Who is ironically voting for Trump?
He’s desperately trying to stop things, but he is completely powerless and that’s not his fault, but also he has actually gotten tons of great stuff done and you’re just ignoring it, and you should ignore the bad stuff he’s done because his opponent will do worse, but most importantly any good stuff he hasn’t done was impossible for him to get done, and that’s why you should vote for him
Realistically, what are you gonna do? The time for another candidate came and went, so all intents and purposes you’ve got either Biden or Trump.
Refusing to vote en-masse to stick it to the DNC sounds great, but is it worth giving Trump the keys to the castle?
The guy who’s repeatedly given open support towards Israel “war”, told them they should “get the job done” - hell his only condemnation towards them is the fact Israel recorded any of it.
Trump being in would only change things for the worse, and that’s just with Gaza - I’d argue the status quo is better than the alternative.
Though it’s fucked we ended up in this situation in the first place.
I know trump would be worse, but this post is just expounding on how shitty biden still is. Being 5% better than trump isn’t good and he knows he could be better but he’s not.
5%? Who hurt you? It’s way more than that. More like 95%.
You have a literal elderly criminal idiot vs a seasoned politician elderly idiot who won’t fuck the country over like DJT did.
But then again I have been on 5 continents and know for a fact Americans are the dumbest people when it comes to having coherent awareness of their situation.
Ironic you’re calling me an idiot when you can’t see the damage neoliberals like biden have caused and continue to cause. For starters, guy is literally enabling a genocide. He can’t even bring himself to call trump and his goons in the GOP fascists. I do mutual aid work with various organizations and I see the suffering these so called progressives in government allow to continue year after year while spending billions on bullshit like police and the defense industry.
I know i’m not part of this ongoing debate, but it seems like you’re both right for different reasons. From an american standpoint, biden is significantly better, because of the social programs and liberal motivators he puts in place. As far as directly effecting american lives, biden helps and trump hurts.
From a global capitalist perspective, they’re both the same, with biden being slightly worse because those same social benefits pacify the left into apathy towards stopping global war, genocide, destabilization of exploited countries, and the rise of global surveillance.
Since we are forced to choose, biden seems better for america, but how does any real change happen if we’re all given our treats to stay obedient.
I am very aware of that damage. You seem the unaware one, with regards to Trump.
You flip the monopoly board.
That’s what you do.
Too make sure it doesn’t get worse faster*
I will never vote for Joe Biden again.
I’d like to ask why, but I’m not sure I want the answer.
Biden is the architect over 52 years in politics of an astounding number of this nations problems and many that affect me personally. He was a bridge too far in 2012 after I learned he wasnt just Obamas weird acting old guy vp.
I can’t comprehend how anyone was able to vote for him in 2020 and it’s deeply disturbing that anyone would support him now.
You can’t comprehend Trump?
…mmmmm
If you believe that trump is an existential threat, saw what happened last time he was declared the loser of an election, recognize that the right is making plans to enact their policy through administrative action (project 2025) and you think it matters how you vote I frankly don’t know what to say.
I mean, sure, vote for Biden if you can keep your lunch down long enough, but that shouldn’t matter one whit compared to how well you prepare for an enhanced replay of January sixth.
I do not believe trump is an existential threat. The right can’t gas up the slow slouch into fascism because it would necessitate fucking up the stock market shell game bag and they won’t do that.
We’re going to get the same shit as last time except this time his administration will have done their homework and won’t have to seethe as wall materials get sold off for scrap value.
Trump isn’t an existential threat??? He is the goddamn reason Biden is president…
Plus he’s Putinz pissboy puppet.
I swear to god.
Hey, you remember that country we spent fifty years undermining and sabotaging that finally succumbed in the 90s and was sold off for scrap? Well it’s back and it’s in control of one of our political candidates!
Russigate is a busybox for sequel brained liberals. It’s qanon for the actblue set.
…just 50 years?
So you’re so into politics you just can’t help yourself.
Neat.
Im voting for him because he is the best president of my lifetime with the possible exception of carter.
I’m curious what you think makes him better than Obama?
Obama got almost nothing done in his first term mainly do to trying to work across the isle. Biden was not shackled with this given how clearly republicans have made it that they are not going to work in good faith at all.
Biden isn’t working across the aisle? Several of Biden’s initiatives have been bipartisan. If anything, I think his greatest achievement has been getting bipartisan support during the most politically divided times since the civil war.
Every time I see a vote its mostly party line with possibly a few “defectors”. Its crazy how partisan it is now
Of all the strawmen that bear no resemblance to the the real thing people are saying this is a big strawman one
Voting is about picking your opponents, not your teammates.
That is very sad
Is it?
I figure it’s just how democracy has to work. Governance is too complicated to just set it and forget it every 2-4 years.
Even if you somehow elect an ideal candidate, you’re still going to disagree at some point during their term.
There are plenty of no-win scenarios, opportunities to trade a short-term loss for a long-term win, etc. where you might agree on goals but not tactics and you end up having to petition/protest them.
And that’s in the ideal case.
You might as well assume that whoever ends up in The Room Where It Happens, they’re going to sit down on the opposite side of the table from you — not next to you.
I guess that’s kinda cynical, but I really don’t mean it to be. I think it’s just a more healthy way to frame participatory democracy. Your job is not done at the ballot box. That’s just to set the parameters for the real work.
It all comes down to the biggest pain of current elections: strategic voting. If there was an ideal candidate you wouldnt vote for him because you d vote less bad so that more bad does not claim the throne. There are numerous systems which solve this problem but somehow both less bad and more bad dont have any reason to establish them. Of course there are many other faults with current voting systems and especially US system. If you want a proof that the system is fucked and needs to be abolished look at 1992 usa elections - not only did 19% of votes equate to 0(!) spots in the house or senate, there is a reasonable arguement to be made that the fact that Ross Perot entered the election has changed its outcome (spoiler effect). It is sad that US elections have reached an equlibrium where there are only two possible candidates who dont even have to try. After all “47% of the people will vote for the candidate no matter what” (intentional misquote)
So much reasonable discourse in these comments.
Define reasonable discourse
To Democrats it means refusing to say “third party vote” in favor of terms like “spoiler” or “protest vote” while claiming voting for Trump is a mainline leftist position, then yelling “nuhuh trump lover” if you point out its false.
Welcome to another Hexbear brigade thread…
the genocide?
it’s already happening…