I’m having conflicting thoughts about religion in shaping human history.
As an atheist, it seems obvious to me that if there were no religion from the start, the world would have been a better place than it is now. There would be no religious wars, honor killings, more freedom, no religious leaders abusing their powers, no waste of labor and money on religious things, etc. It may seem that we would be more educated and have better understanding.
My whole conflict arises from the fact that “fear is a better driver than education and reasoning.” As no system is efficient and perfect, the absence of religion would have caused more crimes. Religion promotes fear (the concept of an afterlife, hell) if you do something wrong. If there were no religion, humans may have committed numerous crimes without fearing consequences. You could say that it is due to religions that numerous wars have happened in history. But that is a tiny percentage of the whole population. Most people lived happier with religion as it introduced morals ,ethics and consequences for wrongdoing(big factor). One would think and question before doing something wrong.
You could also say that if we were non-religious from the start, we would have had better education, reasoning, different type ethics and morals etc. But as I said earlier, no system is efficient, and since non-religion doesn’t promote fear if you don’t get caught by others, there would be more crimes without fearing consequences if they don’t get caught by others, which was easy in the old days.
So, I’m thinking if religion did better in the early days.
And I know that nowadays it’s a different story, and non-religion is obviously better.
You must log in or register to comment.
I’m an atheist, and obviously a lot of evil things have been done in the name of religion, but I think there are some incredible things that have resulted from it, too.
People were given solace in times of sorrow. They were given a hope for justice in times of tyranny. The art of the Sistine Chapel, or Buddhist temples, or incredible songs that resonate because of their religious imagery. You wouldn’t have Hallelujah or Spirit in the Sky, and on the other hand you wouldn’t have Imagine - or at least it would hit different. Some addicts rely on it to help them fight addictions.
Some religious traditions helped with sanitation and preventing the spread of disease in a time when we didn’t have other tools to make people understand.
So in the end I think religion has done and continues to do tremendous harm and is mostly an evil force, but there are some incredibly beautiful and important things that came from it that are worth celebrating.
I want to add to this. I’m not a psychologist, but I have heard a couple times about the term “third place”. It’s this concept that most people have a “place where they live”, a “place where they work”, and then a “place where they socialize”. It has been theorized that the modern working-age population is having trouble with stress and mental health in large part due to the dearth of “third places”.
The “third place” can be, for example, a restaurant or bar that you frequent (think the pub from the TV show Cheers), a book club, a sports club, or, crucially, a church or place of worship.
For Christianity at least, knowing that you were going to see and socialize with the same group of people (who share at least 1 major interest in common with you) every Sunday is apparently quite good for mental health. So, although I am no proponent of certain Western religions in general, I do think their decline has contributed to some of the mental health crises. How much? I cannot say.
That’s a really good point. Lemmy has sort of become my Third Space and Reddit before that. I moved away from home for 5 years then moved back and then covid hit. I haven’t had anyone to hang out and socialize with other than my wife and kids in a long time.
I used to be active in the kink community and we’d go to munches, which were really just a bunch of people united by a sort of bohemian stance towards sexuality getting together and talking about mostly anything else. Religion or secularism was mostly irrelevant. I really miss the kink community for that reason more than anything, you know, particularly deviant. But also being transgressive was fun, too.
Online just doesn’t hit the same.
Faith and Religion are two different things. Yes, I think the world would be far better without Religion. But faith gives people strength to overcome challenges that otherwise may destroy them. Faith doesn’t require you pay anything, money, time, etc into it. Faith is a personal thing between that one person and whatever they happen to put the faith into. Faith doesn’t require you to kill someone else because they don’t share that faith. Faith doesn’t require you study some fairy tale written by storytellers thousands of years ago. Religion is the opposite of all that, and for it’s survival requires you to spread the virus by any means necessary.
You really nailed it. I’ll take it one step further though - religion as a concept is not the problem. Having gods, holidays rites and rituals - that’s all good.
It’s religion as an organization, when it gives people power which they can misuse when we start having problems.
Your way of saying it is way clearer though.
Power-hungry people need to make up rules to control others, religions are a convenient tool for that, but they’re not the only one.
It’s pretty naive to think we wouldn’t have just found a different excuse to burn people alive.
Even today, I know some people who dedicate themselves to helping their community or open source, in the name of religion. It gives them a zen and feeling of purpose.
I also know people who have no friends or support. They’re locked up in their apartment, letting themselves rot day in and out. If those people were religious, at least they would be going to church.
Atheist btw.
As a life long atheist, the simple answer is no.
The longer answer is:
Humans have a brain that is effectively an extremely good pattern recognition engine, we are wired to find meaning in things, we anthropomorphize everything with no regard for logic or sanity.
Humans are hard coded to make religion or religion adjacent things.
To imagine a world without religion, would mean that we are talking entirely different brain structures, basically we wouldn’t humans anymore.
In saying the above, I think religion has had its time, it has had a good run. It now causes far more problems than it solves. Having a belief system based on an imaginary sky daddy, really doesn’t add much to the modern world.
Side note: why do people anthropomorphize their food, it is really messed up.
This right here. If we didn’t have religion, practically the first thing we’d do is begin hallucinating about one. There’s a “religion”-shaped hole in every human brain, basically, even though things that we wouldn’t necessarily readily recognize as religious patterns could come to fill it, wholly or partially. Our pattern recognition/reconstruction and predictive modeling systems will always generate hallucinations that, like most heuristics, are fundamentally not reality but MAY nevertheless offer sufficient utility (or the feeling of utility) that the synaptic connections they comprise will end up self-reinforcing.
The amount of vigilance it would take to continually purge these cognitive patterns would be more expensive and exhausting than most of the potential dangers of letting them exist.
But it’s possible to mindfully decide to cultivate the features and aspects of what emergently congeals there such that it’s more likely to be harmless, such as certain hobbies, fandoms, habits, or ritual-esque behavioral patterns.
Reflecting on our experiences against an anthropomorphized hypothetical observer to gain insights we would otherwise miss shows up even in places like computer programming - see “rubber duck debugging” - sufficiently strict religious sects would most certainly decry this activity as idolatry to a false god, even if YOU clearly do not classify a rubber ducky as a god. Because, again, the root of religiosity is group consensus of a socially shared memetic hallucination. what they perceive becomes a component of their beliefs even if it doesn’t become a component of yours.
This leads me to often consider spirituality, magical thinking, ritualistic behaviors, and religiosity in general as a bridge between our animalistic impulses and instincts vs. our sapience, or whatever you might label “higher” cognitive functions that enable abstract decision differentiation.
Religion hasn’t had its time so much as it is rapidly evolving along with the rest of society.
Religion does not have to mean sky daddy or even have to imply belief in the supernatural.
Religion isn’t really evolving fast enough. It is being out competed at every turn, the fastest growing religious position in a lot of places is ‘no religion’.
What are we doing instead, various fandom’s…
Even without religion exising, I think people will still eventually gravitate towards something similar. It’s a part of human nature that we are still yet to break away from as a species. Sure, atheism and agnosticism are becoming increasingly prevalent now; but it’s still a very small minority globally and it will probably never become the norm.
I think when people are afraid and confused they tend to depend on narcissistic psychopaths to do their thinking for them. That’s the part that’s nature. The reason so many people are afraid and confused is because we are trying to live in a highly unnatural way in a world guided primarily by narcissistic psychopaths whose only concern is to outdo the other narcissistic psychopaths in the world using their people as a resource toward that end. Religion is one of uncountable tools in this dynamic. Removing it would disempower some narcissistic psychopaths and create opportunities for other narcissistic psychopaths. Afraid and confused people want the assurance from the narcissistic psychopaths regardless of whether religion is an option.
Humans are volatile by nature. If it wasn’t religion it would be race I’d it’s not race it would be accent and if not that then something else. Everyone one could be gray blobs and there will be someone saying "Actually We’re the Grayest and the Blobiest”.
Peace will only be achieved when humanity is unified and if that happen we stop being human and something else.
No, it’s not religion that makes people self-centered assholes that like to kill, rape and pillage. Religion is just a handy excuse to hide behind.
However, structured religion does hold back scientific progress by prohibiting to question the status quo.
Without religion, the world would be pretty much the same, but maybe we would get disintegrated by advanced laser tech instead of being shot with a bullet.
Belief in the divine likely comes from our brains’ hyperactive agency detection system: our brains err on the side of seeing agency where there is none in order to keep us alive.
If a branch snaps behind you and you react as if someone did it but it was really nothing, you’re fine. But if it was a human or other animal and you react as if it was nothing, you might be food.
Property crime is largely a factor of poverty, but also social inequality. If you lack a need you will try to fulfill that need. If you feel like you’re unfairly “less-than”, you’re much more likely to engage in prohibited behavior to correct that. But also if you have power or wealth, your brain becomes less capable of empathy making it much easier for you to criminally hurt others - the rich do most crimes.
Religion is just using this evolutionarily beneficial flaw in our brains to justify the unjust social hierarchies which drive crime. So in a roundabout way, religion puts upward pressure on crime.
This is a hard question. I think that we would be better off if more people adopted secular worldviews. But throughout history? I don’t think we can simply say “what if there were no religions” – we’d have to be completely different creatures for it to have gone that way. But I do think we’d be better off if we were that kind of creature.
It’s interesting that every group of people, basically ever, has started a religion. I’m no anthropologist, but as far as I know, every civilization to have ever existed has formed one. Forming a religion is as natural as forming a language. Clearly, it’s a thing we do. Lacking an explanation for our questions, from “what are rainbows?” to “what happens when we die?” we will apparently just fill something in. Everyone did it.
For us to have not formed religions, we’d have to be more comfortable with uncertainty. We’d need to have been better at accepting that we don’t know some things, and we can doggedly look for answers, but we shouldn’t insist that we know something before we really do. And I think our species kind of sucks at that.
If we were better at accepting uncertainty while still pursuing answers, we’d all be better off. And maybe, as a side effect of that, we wouldn’t have formed religions.
When Og and Bog saw the sun come over the hill one morning, and Og was like, “Hey Bog, how do you think that happens?” Bog should’ve said, “I don’t know. Maybe someday, someone will know.” Instead, Bog went off on some real bullshit, and now here we are.
It’s interesting that every group of people, basically ever, has started a religion.
One such example of a group of people who had NOT developed religiosity I’m aware of, interestingly, also did not develop mathematics or written language, because the capacity for abstraction which form the substrate that religions grow upon is ALSO a prerequisite for speculative concepts like symbolic meaning and set theory.
I’m speaking of certain mostly out of contact tribes of humans.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pirahã_people
And even they, despite living with an exclusively direct observation empiricism-based worldview, are still susceptible to collective hallucination (though they don’t cultivate it into an organized system that will ever persist beyond those who directly experienced any given hallucinatory event).
Yes Yes Yes!
No, because religions are a guide for a person or a group. It is also a compass to detect good and bad. That there are people with bad intentions who misunderstand religion is another issue.
What’s the difference between religion and any other belief systems?
Depends on what you define as a religion. Violently forcing beliefs onto others - yes we would definitely be better off without that. Hierarchical structures of power - also yes.
Trying to explain the universe around us by anthropomorphizing natural phenomena? I’m not so sure. It could be seen as useful in the sense of philosophical exploration.
As inspiration for art - it was immensely useful.
Trying to explain the universe around us by anthropomorphizing natural phenomena? I’m not so sure. It could be seen as useful in the sense of philosophical exploration.
Yeah. A lot of religions’ explanations for things are only wrong in the sense that Newton’s Laws are wrong. Later physicists made drastic improvements. Einstein’s equations are strictly more correct, and don’t fail in the situations where Newton’s equations fail (near the speed of light).
But Newton’s work was a way to start understanding, and a set of ideas for Einstein to start from. We don’t despise Newton for those failures, we celebrate the incremental progress.
Lots of religion’s efforts to explain the world act like that, just from before we even had scientic methods.
Edit; And to be clear, I still have no respect for the charred remains of any hard-line Newton fans who attempt space travel without applying newer equations.
I think the world would be in a better place if people stopped believing in fairy tales. This includes religion, Santa Claus, and every other useless nonsense.
Religion, specifically, set the world back by 1000-1500 years. Sure would be nice to live in a time when cancer doesn’t run rampant — but nah, let’s let the imaginary fairy grandpa solve everything for centuries.