When I say honor, what I mean is the idea of every individual being called to answer to everyone else. You know, the kind of thing you see from the Klingons. “You are thirty and unmarried, you bring dishonor to us” or “shame on your family for eternity because you were arrested for terrorism” or “what a disgrace you are for not having the skillset of your parents”. This goes deeper than that though, sometimes it’s more subtle, for example you might run into old classmates and all they want to know is how your brother is doing, or people keep telling you that you should live up to your sister or they might put you in some kind of shadow.
People who defend honor will often say “it is the masses who have spoken, enough said” but do you consider this self-explanatory and why? Because I have many questions sometimes that get no answer that seem to undermine the very justification of honor, for example… what defines a member of an honor culture, is the internet seen as a valid method of manifesting an honor culture, does an honor culture that faces a schism and breaks off from another become a dishonorable honor culture or equally valid, who was the first person to believe in certain ideas from which the honor culture got its conclusions, how did said person justify their ideas, is it dishonorable to find loopholes in the rules of the honor culture, are you dishonored if you save the life of someone who is seppukuing, what if this person happens to be the emperor, etc.
When I hear the word “honor” I mostly only conotate it with honor killings where a brother kills his sister or a father his daughter because she dared to date someone they don’t approve off. I’ve not seen it with my own eyes but read about it many articles in Germany and Sweden where Turkish or Afghan migrants did this.
So for me this word has a ver bad conotation.
Expanding on your example I believe “honor” implies that the person doesn’t really believe in anything, doesn’t have an independent system of morality.
They only care about perception among their in-group.
Honor means a lot of different things. And it has been used to commit so many different crimes against minorities.
I think nowadays in the western culture it means individual honor. It means to be trustworthy and to stand by your word. By the classic saying: “A gentleman can settle the bill later”.
The way late stage capitalism goes, honor culture will be left behind. Where every individual is reduced to a number, the concept is disappearing. You pay first before pumping gas. And the only time your wow matters is in the court when you say you won’t lie.
Love the western definition meaning integrity. Loathe the definition meaning group pressure up to violence.
is it dishonorable to find loopholes in the rules of the honor culture
Dueling culture in 18th and 19th century Europe was commonly organized around concepts of “gentlemanly honor”. Even back then, people recognized the need for loopholes.
Consider the case of two friends who got drunk at a tavern, each one declaring how much they loved the other. Eventually, one friend goes overboard “I love you more than you know!” to which the response is “But that cannot be, for my love of you is infinite!”. Soon this becomes an argument over who loves the other more, and eventually they have to settle their friendship like gentlemen: With swords at dawn. If they’re smart and sober up in time, their seconds will work out a solution before the fight, but there are cases recorded where the friends kill each other because honor trumps love.
There were also loopholes which worked to favor the person that society already deemed more “honorable” (wealthy, connected, liked, etc). It was generally accepted that a gentleman of certain standing could honorably refuse another’s challenge to duel if their social stations were different. Think a “new money” banker’s son challenging a minor nobleman over a loan that’s due. It simply wouldn’t look good to have some commoner slaying an aristocrat, even if said aristocrat was an asshole.
imo honor is roughly a synonym for integrity.
yet integrity means different things to different people.
and people also mistake honor and pride.
I associate honor with it being a part of culture and I think of the Japanese way of honor. Like Bushido.
“Japanese chivalry” existed in many forms, many of which were not chivalrous (e.g. it was totally okay for a samurai to strike down someone of a lower class, and to keep heads of their victims as trophies).
The bushido culture that seems pervasive today in their society was derived as part of a nationalist movement in Japan at the time:
Bushido was used as a propaganda tool by the government and military, who doctored it to suit their needs. The original Imperial Rescript to Soldiers and Sailors of 1882 uses the word hōkoku (報国), signifying the idea of indebtedness to one’s nation because of one’s birth. Such debt must be repaid through physical or mental exertion. This idea did not exist in earlier bushido.
No, and I am honor-bound not to explain it.
I consider honor to sorta be the opposite of hypocrisy. Its to lead ones life as one as one espouses and truly believes and be consistant in word and deed. It is not necessarily good but more often sought by good people.
This makes me think of Jeremy in Pure Pwnage, a mockumentary.
His brother keeps getting gifts from their mom because he has good grades. But Jeremy is instead punished and thrown out of the house.
He feels it’s unfair because he is at the top of many game ladders,whereas Kyle is only good with one thing. The guy is basically a kung fu master but there’s this shism between the physical and digital worlds, so people just don’t get it.
The show explores this shism in various ways, including breaking down this wall entirely, allowing gamers to be powerful in the physical world. Kind of like how coders today are powerful, whereas they used to just be a bunch of nerds.