Finally, another web engine is being developed to compete with Chromium and Firefox (Gecko), and they’re also working on a browser that will use it.
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The devs have some problematic views, mainly transphobic and misogynistic.
Also, the use of AI-generated images on their website.
So?
For many small project is AI images or no images at all.
When you do not have money you are not hiring a 2000€/month artist to do imagery for your website. You go online to copy something or nowadays you can use AI to wrap it up. It’s a tool at people’s disposition like anyother.
And before anyone comes talking about copyright laws… shall I present them my 10 TB hard drive of pirated media? Human culture is to be shared, not gatekeeped.
What’s wrong with that?
For one, AI datasets often break copyright law, frequently appropriating from artists. Executives are also trying to use it to eliminate the jobs of artists, and I feel it’s wrong to try and obsolete something people love doing.
In addition, they take a lot of power, not helping in the way of the needed changes to follow climate goals.
Clarification: Copyright laws can be annoying, and I don’t always agree with them. However, it also protects smaller artists. I think there are many cases where piracy is totally fine, though, like if a company vaults an animated streaming show and gets rid of all other ways to watch it.
Interesting. I am an artist, but I find it helps me make better art. Faster too.
But all my work is copyleft and I give zero shits about so-called “copyright infringement”
Normal people boycotting AI models will not stop executives from being hostile to artists.
Especially people who would have otherwise not paid for art.
No, they will just hire artists who know how to use AI too
I do break copyright law every single day of my life. And so far the only harm I’ve done is avoiding Disney a free pass to kill my wife.
Copyright law is bad. Sharing is caring.
Also I’ve make AI images with Stable Diffusion self hosted on my N100 server that takes way less energy than a normal computer being turned on for hours using Photoshop, so I saved the world by doing AI images instead of manually painting them.
oh noooooo not the copyright infringement!
Executives are also trying to use it to eliminate the jobs of artists, and I feel it’s wrong to try and obsolete something people love doing.
Luddism, much?
The lesson of the Luddites is to fight the industrialist who wants to take away the pleasures of being human in the name of enriching said industrialist. Time and effort saving mechanisms should benefit the laborer, and no one else. That their movement has been labeled as being resistant to human progress or uninformed of the benefits of industrialization tells on our society’s propaganda mechanisms and our failure to teach our own history
I fail to see how is traing AI on publicly available images hurting small artists?
You don’t have to write if you don’t have time, link to explanation is good for me.
I basically use generated images in places that would not have any ilustrations before. There is no budget. When I have money for an artist I hire an artist.
Is this because they used “he” instead of “they” in the build instructions? … They changed that and acknowledged the mistake. Surely that’s enough. It’s the fucking build instructions. I think we can probably find it in our hearts to forgive them.
[edit] Just in case people think I’m joking. I’m not. As far as I’m aware, the critical incident that that has resulted in people calling Ladybird devs anti-trans is that they wrote ‘he’ instead of ‘they’ in the build instructions. That’s what caused the original outrage. And as far as I’m aware, there have been no other incidents. But please, if there is something of substance that I’m not aware of, post about it here.
To be clear, nobody was outraged by the devs using gendered language. The outrage was because they rejected multiple PRs to correct it under the guise of it being “political”.
That’s literally it. People are getting angry over unsubstantiated information for 0 reason
The problem was more the fact that the devs viewed using anything other than ‘he’ as political, not the presence of gendered language itself. The devs themselves made a big deal about changing it. The way I see it, it’s not even about trans people. How about just women? Is including women in software developent considered political? One would hope not, but here we are…
I wouldn’t read too much into it. Using “he” instead of “it” is a mistake that a person might make if English is not their first language. It’s pretty easy to imagine that someone working on a browser would not be interesting in messing around with the pronouns in their build instructions. They made an error, and they didn’t think the error was important (which in itself was another error). But it is fixed now. Surely no harm done. They were not actively trying to impede anyone’s progress or deny anyone’s rights, or even say anything negative about anyone at all. They simply made a mistake in their use of pronouns in their build instructions. The mistake is now fixed. And although its fair to take it as a ‘warning’ that maybe there are objectionable views lurking in there, it certainly is not evidence of such views. I really don’t think it’s fair to hang this mistake over them. I’m sure that pretty much everyone in this thread has made worse mistakes throughout their lives. I know I certainly have.
I get the mistake. Wouldn’t even call it one tbh, just an oversight. But when someone points it out normally one doesn’t reply with “don’t force your political views onto me” as if non male devs was some weird “woke” concept. A simple “whoops, missed that” would have been perfectly fine and everyone would’ve moved on. With that said, having followed the whole debacle I can say it could have been handled better by both sides.
Such accusations should really be followed by a source.
This was resolved and the PR was merged
No, it wasn’t. You might say that the issue was sidestepped, because it says “it”, rather than “they”, now.
I guess it was an overreaction by mastodon, though. Even if I understand the initial criticism.
‘It’ is gender neutral so it was resolved
You claimed the PR was merged.
Jumping to transphobic and misogynistic for not wanting to use inclusive language in some repo documentation is a big jump. He didn’t ever dead named anyone or refuse to use some person preferred pronoums. Its just not wanting to use inclusive language on documentation. Most, if not all, documentation I have ever read in my life don’t use the newest trend of inclusive language.
By they way accusations were written it seemed like devs were actually exposing hate speech or something like that.
Let’s not be like that, ok? At least I choose not be like that. You can destroy people lives with such accusations over basically nothing, be better.
I know that we are near Americans elections as it always makes the whole internet jumping, and throwing knives to find “the enemy”. But it could be as simple as inclusive language might be confusing for non english speakers, or might the trend change over time and it’s just a bother to keep updating with the lastest trend. Do you know how many versions of inclusive language did we have in my language? We started using ell@s, then ellxs, then ellos y ellas, then elles, then ellos, ellas y elles. It’s too volatile and little to be that mad over it. Specially when there’s people out there who truly hate anyone who is not a cis str male and is doing true hate speech over that.
If there’s more evidence of devs being evil, I will aknowledge it. But for such a little inconsequential thing (again it’s not even being against someone chosen pronoums, it’s just general documentation) I refuse to spread hate towards other human being.
Meh, that just killed my interest in the project. I was really looking forward to their first release. Now I don’t care anymore.
So do you have any evidence for this instead of just dropping it with no source?
Oh gosh here we go again, as in Braves case.
Making a donation to a campaign that the majority of Californians voted for is unforgivable.
It almost like a bot is posting this sentence every time SerenityOS is mentioned.
Using “he” insted of “they” is not enough to call someone transphobic or misogynistic. It’s like you become fascist and are targeting people for one different opinion. Which is not even true.
There are real problems transgender people are having, ladybird browser must be low on that priority.
There are real problems transgender people are having, ladybird browser must be low on that priority.
Are you trying to tell me that Ladybird inadvertently referring to a computer process ‘he’ instead of ‘it’ is not a high priority problem for transgender people? What could possibly be worse? :p
(But seriously though. I find it really weird that people are still upset at Ladybird about this. It makes me wonder if there’s some social manipulation going on. Like, is anyone actually upset about this, or is it just an excuse to attack the devs?)
It was changed to they later, to the lead dev, in german they/them is a neopronoun, and “he” is gender neutral is those situations, i assume he thought it was the same in english
I couldnt really care less about my chefs personal view as long as the meal is ok.
You’d be comfortable eating food prepared by a Nazi? I sure as hell wouldn’t.
Don’t put all all Ladybird devs in the same basket, there’s currently more than 1000 contributors.
Ok, Andreas Kling said some untasteful things a few years ago when it was mostly his project, but I don’t think it’s fair to dismiss the whole project for this reason now.
Then it’s good you won’t touch it. Ain’t it?
Hot take: Since it’s a BSD licensed browser at some point in the future, there’s going to be a company that funds it brings it to mainstream with their flavor, and then will over throw chromium in time. Replace an ‘evil’ with another ‘evil’.
Yeah not a good licence at all for an independent browser. Idk if Servo MPL is a good license either. Do you know of any web browser that is GPL?
WebKit/Blink are mostly LGPL.
Definitely not what you want, but Gnome web (Epiphany) is GPLv3 according to flathub.
Its better than a BSD style license which is what I was mainly critiquing
Luckily Gecko still exists. And who knows, maybe Servo will make it one day (but the odds are stacked against both them and Ladybird anyway).
I feel you… Fingers crossed dude. It’s gonna be a bumpy ride
Servo hype
Sounds fun, but I wish there were more people who’d invest in making Firefox’s Gecko more easy to use (stretch goal: revive Proton, which is Electron but Firefox) instead of pushing a ton of effort into inventing a new thing.
That said, this is coming from SerenityOS (specifically, the founder and basically the entire community concentrating on building its browser instead of hacking the OS, resulting in a split), so I understand that it might be a lot harder to port large codebases to a new OS instead of than starting a new one.
Edit: It’s Positron, not Proton
Well we wouldn’t want Proton, it would be 2000x less lightweight than electron! /s
It seems to me that Tauri is maybe a better direction to invest resources in than a direct electron-but-Firefox. Its lighter weight and better sandboxed, and can presumably be configured to run with a Gecko engine instead of a chromium-based webview. I have no idea its status, but geckoview does seem to exist.
Ah shit we need photon. Light as light itself
Proton and photon is just the Firefox browser’s GUI style. Proton is the previous one, photon is the current one where everything is bigger and curly.
These people started it and are doing it for fun.
Fixing few decades of technical debt is not fun and a big question would be if their code would even be considered for existing engines.
It us so much fin it already has over 1000 contributors. It got us 1k more people that understand browsers deeply. I think that’s a huge win whatever happens with browser itself
You don’t have to fix technical debt to just incorporate the engine unless you’re porting it to an entirely new operating system.
There was a gpl licensed browser engine someone by hobby is writing from scratch. I think theese companies supporting ladybird just do so because of license that they can proprietarify(like chromium)
How is it progressing so fast compared to Servo? Isn’t Servo being developed for a longer time?
Servo was partially integrated into Firefox and discontinued
Servo is now an active project managed by the Linux Foundation.
Which means nothing honestly
I think Ladybird has way more promise
Basically everywhere I go on Lemmy you’re there spouting ignorant bullshit, garbage takes, rage-bait and misinformation. You’re inescapable. This is the perfect example. You know what you’re saying is wrong. You know you’re being dishonest. Do you wanna know how I know? Because I literally told you as much less than two weeks ago when you tried spreading the same lies. But you didn’t care back then and you still don’t care now. The only thing you seem to care about going by the other things I’ve seen you post is pushing your favorite projects, and you will use all of the arguments available to do so, including the ones that you just entirely made up. You think LadyBird is the better project and are trying to spread the belief that Servo is dead to make others buy into the LadyBird hype further. But, of course, Servo verifiably isn’t dead and in fact the Servo team writes up monthly blog posts detailing their progress, which show the project developing at a healthy pace. And to top it all off, when these facts are pointed out to you, your only comeback is “means nothing”. Clearly you’re not the kind of person to let facts tie you down.
Heh, I thought about blocking them like a thousand times, but they are sometimes sharing neutral or interesting information so I’m just trying to ignore this type of comments
Only reason I unblocked them was in case I needed to refute their claims anywhere. Suffice to say though, for anyone reading this, a good rule of thumb is if Possibly Linux says it, decent chance its untrue
Maybe I made to many assumptions. All I saw was on the about page they said they started under Mozilla and moved to the Linux foundation. Maybe I’m to quick to jump to conclusions but it doesn’t look like it has that much momentum. To be fair neither does Labybird. The big thing about Ladybird is that it is completely independent and already has a decent amount of funding. Maybe Servo is bigger than I realized. At the end of they day we need diversity.
I didn’t mean this as a personal attack. It seems like you have some previous knowedge of Servo which is completely fine. You are welcome to block me if you so wish. At the end of the day you don’t have to care about what I say. While I don’t suspect this will turn into harassment I will note that I will block you if you start trying to “chase” me across the fediverse. I have had issues in the past where someone starts going though and replying to every one of my comments everywhere.
Tom Servo?
We don’t have anyone actively working on Windows support, and there are considerable changes required to make it work well outside a Unix-like environment.
We would like to do Windows eventually, but it’s not a priority at the moment.
This is how you make “critical mass” adoption that much more difficult.
As much as I love Linux, if you are creating a program to be used by everyone and anyone, you achieve adoption inertia and public consciousness penetration by focusing on the largest platform first. And at 72% market share, that would be Windows.
I hope this initiative works. I really do. But intentionally ignoring three-quarters of the market is tantamount to breaking at least one leg before the starting gate even opens. This browser is likely to be relegated to being a highly niche and special-interest-only browser with minuscule adoption numbers, which means it will be virtually ignored by web developers and web policy makers.
Linux users tend to give much better bug reports than Windows users (if they do at all). That alone is probably a good enough reason to do Linux first. There are many more good reasons when the first goal is getting it functional and not getting as many users as possible (who will probably hate it if they’re not a technically skilled user because there will be bugs).
You’re making an assumption their first priority is the number of users. I would suspect that isn’t true, and they’re aware Windows has more users.
LadyBird is an unusable pre-alpha-quality web browser. The fact that they haven’t bothered porting to Windows yet is both thoroughly unsurprising and entirely meaningless. In its current state, it wouldn’t become popular either way. But I guess Linux users have this weird inferiority complex where everything must instantly be dropped to port to Windows even when it makes little sense to do so.
i’d like to see a revival of webkit and an open source browser that uses it
WebKit isn’t dead and is being used by GNOME Web.
I used luakit for awhile. Really fun to only use keyboard, but definitely lacking features that makes “modern” websites not suck so hard
There was a gpl licensed browser engine someone by hobby is writing from scratch. I think theese companies supporting ladybird just do so because of license that they can proprietarify(like chromium)
I agree. However, things are so bad in the browser market that even a proprietary browser could be good news if they don’t become a duopoly and actually compete.
All the code is hosted on GitHub. Clone it, build it, and join our Discord if you want to collaborate on it! We’re looking forward to seeing you there.
So much for freedom when everything is done thru proprietary services under US jurisdiction.
I don’t know if it’s a good idea to build a new engine from scratch… Maybe it is but I don’t know, behind an engine you need to have support and development, so this thing needs to be improved and supported along the versions to be safe, so I don’t know if it’s a good idea or not 🙃
Repost but still cool
Also I am surprised at how many sponsors there are and how many industries are represented. The project isn’t that old
It’s interesting to see a new browser engine aside from Gecko and Chromium, especially with all the conundrum surrounding the Manifest v2 support.
I want manifest 3.2