- cross-posted to:
- piracy@lemmy.dbzer0.com
- privacy@lemmy.ca
(Cross-posted from: https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/26559848/)
Some significant news for Telegram users!
See this article for some interesting backstory context on Pavel Durov and Telegram: https://www.spiegel.de/international/world/the-telegram-billionaire-and-his-dark-empire-a-f27cb79f-86ae-48de-bdbd-8df604d07cc8
Since the post article is in French, here’s an auto-translation:
Pavel Durov, the founder and CEO of the encrypted messaging service Telegram, was arrested around 8 p.m. on Saturday evening as he got off his private jet on the tarmac of Le Bourget airport. The 39-year-old Franco-Russian was accompanied by his bodyguard and a woman.
The arrest was carried out by the gendarmes of the GTA (Air Transport Gendarmerie). Registered in the RPF (wanted persons file), Pavel Durov came straight from Azerbaijan. He had over his head a French search warrant issued by the OFMIN of the National Directorate of the French Judicial Police, issued on the basis of a preliminary investigation.
Why was he under threat of a search warrant?
The Justice considers that the lack of moderation, cooperation with the police and the tools offered by Telegram (disposable number, cryptocurrencies, etc.) makes it complicit in drug trafficking, paedophile offences and fraud.
This search warrant ran if, and only if, Pavel Durov was on national territory. “He made a mistake tonight. We don’t know why… Was this flight just a step? In any case, he’s locked up!” a source close to the investigation told TF1/LCI. Since he knew he was persona non grata in France, Pavel Durov used to travel to the Emirates, the countries of the former USSR, South America… He travelled very little in Europe and avoided countries where Telegram is under surveillance.
And now?
Investigators from the ONAF (National Anti-Fraud Office attached to the Customs Directorate) notified him and placed him in police custody. He is expected to be presented to an investigating judge this Saturday evening before a possible indictment on Sunday for a multitude of offences: terrorism, drugs, complicity, fraud, money laundering, concealment, paedophile content…
“Pavel Durov will end up in pre-trial detention, that’s for sure,” comments an investigator to TF1/LCI. “On his platform, he allowed an incalculable number of misdemeanours and crimes to be committed for which he does nothing to moderate or cooperate,” said a source close to the case.
His pre-trial detention at the end of his indictment is indeed in no doubt. Pavel Durov, a billionaire, has substantial means to flee and his guarantees of representation will hardly convince the judges.
A net with international resonance
For the investigators, this international sweep has various objectives. First, it makes it possible to kick the anthill, impress and deter the perpetrators of crimes and offences who exchange, until now, freely on Telegram. Secondly, they aim to put pressure on European countries to step up joint work to make secure messaging on terrorist cases bend.
Indeed, Telegram is a hive of criminal content. At the moment, the platform is in the news with the illegal broadcasting of Ligue 1 matches. But on this encrypted messaging service, many accounts are used by organized crime. Beyond terrorism, the most dangerous pedophiles communicate on Telegram to exchange content. “It has become for years THE number 1 platform for organized crime,” comments an investigator.
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I don’t care much for the guy, but the fact he gets arrested for the service is a bad sign for private messaging in Europe.
I think you and most people in this thread have been mislead by the article because of the closing remark.
Beyond terrorism, the most dangerous pedophiles communicate on Telegram to exchange content.
But it isn’t the private stuff he is being prosecuted for though AFAIK (although it might have been reported by “traitors” within those chats).
Unlike Signal, there are public chat groups and channels and I presume these are the ones which got him into trouble for propagating illegal activity.
From another article…
terrorism, narcotic supply, fraud, money laundering, receiving stolen goods and others… he allowed an incalculable number of offenses and crimes to be committed, which he did nothing to moderate
The platform has faced issues of misinformation and hate speech, especially antisemitic speech following October 7, 2023.
So platforms are now liable for everything people post? This seems like a free pass to censorship and authoritarian control.
The platforms should be held liable when those groups can easily be accessed by anyone, and moderation would be “simple” as the conversations aren’t even encrypted. We aren’t asking for more of Telegram than Youtube or Facebook
What do you mean ‘now’? Even 4chan had to remove illegal things, this isn’t new.
In the US platforms are shielded from liability with the exception of CSAM
Just like how municipal governments are responsible for every crime that occurs in city limits!
Wait a minute
I think it’s even more of a French thing than an EU thing. France is known for implementing censorship and stuff recently.
If you don’t care for the guy, you will nearly certainly lose privat messaging in Europe. Maybe, it’s even too late by now.
No. Pavel Durov is a nut and he is not out there saving private communication. Signal is offering the most accessible e2ee messenger right now. Telegram has questionable security on their optional e2ee chats which is also not the default.
But the people trying to save e2ee in europe are activists and politicians. Patrick Breyer has done excellent reporting on the chat control plans of the EU.
Durov is just some dude peddling his mid messenger
Signal is offering the most accessible e2ee messenger right now.
Doesn’t matter. In the reach of EU, some law about Chat Control. If they make this into law, no provider within the EU will have a choice in this matter.
good thing Signal is US-based. I hope it will remain possible to use their service in the EU though…
Telegram is good for citizen journalism (like what’s going on on the ground in Gaza and Ukraine), funny videos and memes, tech support, and casual conversation. Never privacy though.
The fact that governments want to shut down Telegram and arrest its founder shows that Telegram is pretty good for privacy.
I wouldn’t go that far
And definitely much better than discord, contrary to what some say
I’m pretty sure no one actually says that
What should be alarming is what thus means for other services. Can you get arrested for running a Matrix server in France? It seems like this is very slippery
I personally don’t like Telegram as it is centralized, not private and is to close to the Russian government. However, it should be allowed to exist.
If you own a house, can see crime is being committed there and take no action to stop it you are a criminal and should be arrested. If you own a farm, can see crime is being committed there and take no action to stop it you are a criminal and should be arrested. If you own a school, can see crime is being committed there and take no action to stop it you are a criminal and should be arrested. If you own an office building, can see crime is being committed there and take no action to stop it you are a criminal and should be arrested. If you own an internet service provider (ISP), can see see crime is being committed there and take no action to stop it you are a criminal and should be arrested. If you own any land, can see crime is being committed there and take no action to stop it you are a criminal and should be arrested. If you own a public forum, can see crime is being committed there and take no action to stop it you are a criminal and should be arrested. If you own a public messenger (because Telegram is very much not private or encrypted) can see crime is being committed there and take no action to stop it you are a criminal and should be arrested.
I don’t see this as a slippery slope.
Why not? Unlike whatsapp and signal, telegram private chats are not synchronized. So if you lost your phone and started a new one, the chats will not magically recover as in whatsapp. Because recover is unsecure. So the telegram is quite private.
or do you mean that encryption is not enabled by default in every chat? This is not an indicator of the messenger’s privacy.
Although Tox takes them all by the head, of course.
Russia banned Signal, but not Telegram, to make sure their citizens couldn’t plan any subversive activities against the state.
That’s all we needed to know for sure.
On the other hand, Durov was arrested in Europe, but the developers of the signal somehow does not.
Well, for some unknown reason, drug dealers still choose telegram. And they don’t just have an unfounded choice, but the profit depends on the messenger. Or say you that Durov was arrested for no reason?
P.S. in Russia now testing system for ban all messengers don’t hosted in Russia. They next after youtube. Telegram too. Information from first hands. =)
Signal doesn’t provide such open and easily found chat rooms.
It’s really much more a messenger (with group chats, but those you have to manually set up)So it’s not an “open” place like telegram and with that not as attractive for advertising illicit services or products.
besides that, Signal is the technically much more secure variant. No discussion about it.
So it’s not an “open” place like telegram and with that not as attractive for advertising illicit services or products.
As telegram. If you think that some drug dealers create public chats with sell drugs, so… you are wrong. All work with darknet. In telegram all of them use only private one-by-one crypto chats.
besides that, Signal is the technically much more secure variant. No discussion about it.
If you want protect yourself for random network administrator on your network line, of course. If you want protect from anyone (government for example), of course not. Not necessarily in a bad way. Privatecrypto chats one-by-one are equally protected for the Russian opposition and for drug dealers. This is freedom of information. And that’s why Durov was arrested. and not because he can hack chats something but don’t do that. I think in really because that he can’t hack chats and don’t approve hack / insert backdoors for anyone.
Bullshit.
If you want protect yourself for random network administrator on your network line, of course.
Telegram and Signal both use TLS. They are identically secure from transport-level attacks.
If you want protect from anyone (government for example), of course not.
Of course yes. If you want a more private group chat, or an actually useful 1-on-1 encrypted chat that works across multiple devices, Signal is the only option (out of the two, there are way better alternatives like XMPP and Matrix). For 1 device-on-1 device E2E chats, Signal and Telegram are about the same level of security, except Telegram’s protocol sees less scrutiny from the crypto community.
As telegram. If you think that some drug dealers create public chats with sell drugs, so… you are wrong. All work with darknet. In telegram all of them use only private one-by-one crypto chats.
LOL. I see drug ads on the street all the time. The one time I checked, it pointed to a publicly available Telegram bot.
Not “somehow”. The authorities know Telegram can indeed backdoor their service, since they know it already is. They also know Signal cannot.
Thus, since Telegram can but refuses, he gets arrested.
an interesting assumption. how can private encrypted chats be hacked? On custom self compiled clients if you think that client have hole. I learned telegram protocol and don’t find any case. XD
Your .ru domain makes your comments in this discussion meritless.
custom self compiled clients
…
That’s why I started a domain in the ru zone. I can create domain anywhere else of course. If for you the nationality of the talker somehow affects the security of third-party software, then so be it. In the end, you can always not trust my words but familiarize yourself with the protocol.
оо рекабушники в эфире. Реддит ещё там блокировать не собираются?
А кто его знает. Тут как ветер подует так и заблокируют. По телеграмму / ватсапу и т.д. хотя бы предупреждали телеком операторов ещё месяц назад.
Unlike whatsapp and signal, telegram private chats are not synchronized. So if you lost your phone and started a new one, the chats will not magically recover as in whatsapp.
That’s not true. Signal stores all messages on device.
or do you mean that encryption is not enabled by default in every chat? This is not an indicator of the messenger’s privacy.
Encryption on Telegram only works in 1 on 1 chats and is turned off by default meaning no one use it.
That’s not true. Signal stores all messages on device.
Ok. Signal win one point.
Encryption on Telegram only works in 1 on 1 chats and is turned off by default meaning no one use it.
so, I use the telegram crypto chat to get a credit card pin from my bank. do you want to do this with signal? =)
in 1 on 1
and in turn, this means that the FSB log collector is not connected in the third place. =)
P.S. Do you understand the absurdity of the situation? telegram is not safe enough, but for some reason it is preferred by drug dealers. The lives of these people literally depend on the messenger. and the European Union was so unable to cope with this that it arrested the developer for complicity.
telegram is not safe enough, but for some reason it is preferred by drug dealers. The lives of these people literally depend on the messenger.
Most people are technically illiterate. On top of that, most criminals are idiots (otherwise they’d have calculated risk/reward ratio rather than only looking at the reward side of things). The reason it is used by drug dealers is (1) Telegram is convenient, (2) Telegram is not moderated so they accumulate there due to “moderation selection”, (3) Law enforcement didn’t care enough to do anything about that. Now that (3) has changed and (2) is on shaky grounds, I expect a lot of them will move elsewhere.
Definitely I would do so in Signal and never Telegram. What a question
OK. Thanks for answer.
Encryption on Telegram only works in 1 on 1 chats and is turned off by default meaning no one use it.
It also only works in the mobile clients
There are way better options. Use Signal, Simplex Chat or even Matrix
Signal not good enough after check protocol.
Matrix is overkill. But I was hosted it some time ago.
So, I will check Simplex Chat. Thanks.
Chats are only synchronized in Signal on actively linked devices. If you link a new device, your chat history will be completely blank at first.
and this does not prevent you from connecting the FBI log collector in the background. He will always be active.
I live in a country where, when crossing the border, they can request a phone for check chats, so I can roughly imagine how it works. Government has a much higher level of access. if the account is restored via SMS, this means that any FSB employee can connect your account to himself. if the conversation is not one-on-one, it means that the FSB log collector is somewhere in third place. This is the reality. I don’t understand why you think that your government collect data somehow another. may be from really bad people’s, but with same methods.
P.S. on telegram you have only one-by-one crypto chats. Protocol can’t connect anyone else.
Signal has been pretty throughly audited by data security experts. It’s as secure or more so than Telegram. It uses end to end encryption, same as Telegram. If you’re crossing the border, unlink your device, delete the app, and relink it later. Your account can’t be restore via SMS. I’m not sure what you mean by that. I’m sure my government can collect any data they want if they’re determined enough, but Signal is about as secure as it gets if you’re talking civilian digital communication.
I’m sure my government can collect any data they want if they’re determined enough
Exactly. But telegram destroy basic tracking paradigm. You can register on really fake number for example, byed thought TON coin. That’s why Durov arrested in the first place.
And that really good for drug dealers. Or for russian opposition who don’t go out from Russia.
P.S. And experts check only Crypto part, by the way. What really happening on signal servers who known. In that part telegram con’t connect anyone to 1to1 chat (but maybe can hack keys. But I cant approve that after check client source code), but signal can convert that chat to 3 persons and connect logger without problems.
This is a global push to destroy systems the government’s can’t control. He fact he was arrested says everything.
You know you are an authoritarian country when you arrest CEOs of messaging apps.
But’s not just a messaging app. Telegram is a public forum (non-private and unencrypted btw) where they know crimes are being committed and are taking no action to mitigate them.
If you let people commit crimes in your house you are a criminal. If you own a mall and let people commit crimes in it, you are a criminal. If you own a boat and let people commit crimes in it you are a criminal. Same concept here. Pavel Durov created a public forum and not only allows crime to happen, but lies to people telling them its secure and private.
If I were a tinfoil wearing kind of person, I’d think Pavel was in on the whole thing and helping some 3-letter agency because Telegram has been a “privacy” scam from the beginning and it seems criminals are too dumb to realize they fell for playbook similar to Anom, just on a bigger scale.
All CEOs should be arrested actually.
This is a actually pretty worrying
This is a actually pretty worrying
Why?
Telegram is not an encrypted platform, so they’re not going after him for providing end-to-end encrypted services. They’re going after him because they have full insight into what’s going on in their platform and not taking appropriate action and in some cases completely ignoring it. It’s pretty common that if you’re providing a public platform that you comply with authorities. Signal doesn’t have this problem, they have no insight into anything their user base is doing; you can’t be asked to enforce things you can’t see.
So you want so start seeing platforms practice mass censorship? That’s what’s going to happen as they aren’t going to take on risk.
What’s worse is that spells the end of the fediverse and smaller hosted media. The admins who are bold enough to host a Lemmy or Mastodon instance are eventually going to get taken by authorities. It doesn’t matter what country they are in. Admins can’t moderate everything and there will always be content that is illegal somewhere.
So you want so start seeing platforms practice mass censorship? That’s what’s going to happen as they aren’t going to take on risk.
Platforms are already not taking a risk and practice mass censorship. This is why you have words like “unalive” and “grape” becoming part of the American lexicon. It’s not even nefarious. Advertisers don’t want their content near negative content so platforms (without being asked by their government) auto-enforce these kind of policies.
What’s worse is that spells the end of the fediverse and smaller hosted media.
Serious doubt. All the fediverse has to do is comply with the law when asked, it really is that simple. Telegram was specifically not complying with the law, which is why illegal content is so easy to find on there, and thus why they were being targeted.
Admins can’t moderate everything and there will always be content that is illegal somewhere.
Frankly, if you can’t keep your house in order, you’re not taking your responsibility seriously enough. Nobody’s forcing lemmy, mastodon, peertube, pixelfed, etc admins to give free accounts to more people than they can manage.
The law will then say E2EE is forbidden. And then the next step is making Telegram as a prime example to strip out E2EE because “Look how many bad guys we can catch without E2EE”.
The law will then say E2EE is forbidden.
They’ve already been trying to add backdoors to encrypted platforms already.
next step is making Telegram as a prime example to strip out E2EE because “Look how many bad guys we can catch without E2EE”.
It’s going to be hard to ban E2EE globally. If they do propose laws to ban encryption we’ll just need to fight back. The issue with Telegram is completely unrelated to E2EE as they’ve implemented it so poorly, I wouldn’t conflate the two issues.
Telegram never was and never will be a secure messaging platform. Anyone using it as a such is an idiot.
I never said it was
I and many tens of thousands of others use it for accurate and timely war updates. Where are we expected to go if Telegram starts censoring everything?
This could be catastrophic for the war effort online.
Edit: I should note that with the exception of illegal things, like child pornography, being made aware of to the owner of the platform they should have to act on that. That’s excluded from the ramifications this will have on important matters. Any platform should be made to act IF they are made aware of such activities.
Thanks for the reply. Yeah, losing Telegram as a platform for updates would be pretty unfortunate. Is there something unique about Telegram that prevents alternatives from being used? Is it the group size? Its ubiquity?
There are open groups on Telegram in which people post that they want to see person XY dead… Everyone who joins the open group can read it anyway.
They decided not to moderate this and not to delete illegal content once reported, although it’s easily possible without breaking encryption.
IMO, this has not much to do with privacy.
This is like posting that we should kill someone on Reddit and nothing is happening.
It still isn’t a great future to look forward to
Does that mean that French Lemmy admins are now liable for everything that is said by others? That seems like a huge liability and it is impossible for them to catch everything. Also what happens if someone criticizes the French government? Do they have the power to have random comments removed?
This is like posting that we should kill someone on Reddit and nothing is happening.
Have you been there in early 2022? Tons of “we must exterminate Russians”. Or in 2015 or so, go to /Europe, see what they say about migrants. You might wanna lower that high horse of yours
They wouldn’t even have to break encryption to moderate, message groups cannot be (end-to-end) encrypted on Telegram, as secret chats only support one-to-one conversations
I don’t see how that’s his problem.
People who think it is, should report for their duty in Kursk as soon as possible.
I’d totally be on board with this if the moderation was aimed purely at such cases.
I’m afraid it will be used to oppress minorities and suppress political opinion. Are we going to keep putting people in jail for their political opinions?
Are we going to keep putting people in jail for their political opinions?
Yes and it will not change because that’s how the vast majority thinks now.
And the majority thinks this way for what reason?
Because “Fake News” and missinformation has been framded as a danger for our societies for a long time.
I believe it’s a much more complex topic than that.
I believe it’s a much more complex topic than that.
I think, most likely, you overestimated the consideration of the majority. I may be wrong, though. Most opinion I read or heard about are more emotional drived.
Durov, as a citizen of France, recently sent them away when they asked for access, and then flew to them to test the strength of democracy. Imbecility and courage.
He just left Azerbaijan after meeting with Putin. I think he decided he’d be safer in French custody.
He wanted Uncle Vova to hide him from the bad guys, but he sent him away, there was no meeting. Pasha went to a foreign land.
You’re right, Putin declined to meet with him.
Source?
https://turan.az/en/politics/putin-refused-to-meet-with-pavel-durov-in-baku-783760
Apparently he didn’t end up meeting with Putin, but that had been the plan.
But Telegram does give data to law enforcements afaik. So even that is not enough nowadays? Even more sad to see it right after the election. EU citizens really have to reconsider their voting choices now.
It’s own fault, you shouldn’t have taken the citizenship of this stinking pad… You should have taken the citizenship of the Emirates or India or Brazil, for example… Having French citizenship now is a disgrace.
You don’t seem to know what you are talking about. Are you a child or on a primary school or something? Read more.
He has dual citizenship - French and UAE.
I was too lazy to just google it, but he has citizenship in Russia, the UAE, France, and Saint Kitts and Nevis.
India is also attacking encryption and I am not sure about Brazil. If he set foot in India he also would of been arrested.
You were right. After the arrest, it caused a backlash in India. An investigation was launched against the encrypted messaging app to find out whether it violated Indian laws.
If we are being honest I wish I was wrong. I wish seeking privacy from mass surveillance was for paranoid people
Got carried away with democracy and attempts to feel like someone. So what kind of moron do you have to be to get EU citizenship? Thought he would run away from the democrats and liberals. Well, he’s an idiot and that’s it.