More dataisdepressing than dataisbeautiful

      • I’m pretty sure women don’t want to date people who have any sort of disposition that leans towards hating them or believing that women are lesser than men.

        Unfortunately, a lot of men learned that way of thinking early in life(from family and/or media) and it ruins any attempt at a relationship, then they blame women and run to the very people who set them up to fail for validation, or find new ones like that sex trafficker with the pizza boxes, or that canadian psychologist who sugar coats sexism online. Repeat ad nauseum.

        •  Echo Dot   ( @echodot@feddit.uk ) 
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          I have an old high school friend who is very much into the whole Andrew Tate thing. His parents were separated, I don’t know the details as to why, but I do know that his father was a lot more stable than his mother, and I do sometimes wonder if he had lived with his father, if he would have turned out better.

          He also thinks the earth is flat because… otherwise a ball would roll off a table. QED.

          So not exactly firing an all cylinders to begin with.

          • “Divorced dad energy” is one of those meme things that everyone likes to make fun of when a dude does anything, but no one likes to address that same poison when divorced moms act like fools.

            My mother would drag me to various groups that would absolutely shit on “men” constantly, and I got to hear that constantly. It was weird growing up in that environment, but luckily for me it was before the redpill trash all over the internet. Managed to find some good friends in high school

        • That was the mainstream 70-80 years ago. Late 90’s and early 2000’s largely (not completely; nothing is perfect) corrected that, although there was still work to be done. For a brief couple of decades, society enjoyed unadulterated equality underpinned by meritocracy.

          Nowadays men are checking out because modern society overcorrected to the point of them feeling rejected and hated… and unfortunately shithead lowlives like Tate capitalize on that. There are also academics like Peterson whose messaging is too nuanced for the average liberal to comprehend without bias (that’s legitimately difficult to do especially when one’s doctrine actively teaches and encourages ignorance and rejection of opposing views) - kind of like the reverse Tate fanboy, i.e. flaming liberal commie/socialist that would rather dump oil on priceless paintings in museums and run around naked while screaming in people faces while blocking major arterial streets in a busy city in the name of climate change or veganism or some other shit. So on one hand you have Tate fanboys (borderline classical Nazis) and on the other extreme of the spectrum you have overgrown narcissists (basically grown-ass adult toddlers that never developed a proper superego, to use Freudian parlance). I wouldn’t expect an adult toddler with deep-rooted indoctrinated biases to be able to consume or critically analyze any kind of nuanced opinion that did not 100% align with their own… heck, one SJW blue haired leftie with a law degree told me that Peterson’s original argument was that he did not accept trans people, and were genuinely surprised to learn that his sticking point was about compelled speech (weaponized anti-misgendering legislation), rather than being or nor being transgender.

          So from the “incel” perspective (and I am usijg that term rather cynically here, as today’s “incel” is basically the 90’s average 20-30 year old man with classical liberal leanings) on one hand, you have people screaming at you how you’re the problem, you’re a nazi, an incel, blah blah blah, and on the other hand you have people who remind you of the “good old days” when you could settle down, buy a home with a picket fence, a car, a dog/cat, a couple of kids and live your damn life in peace… with a bit of 40-60’s sexism/nazi-ism (depending on who you listen to) sprinkled in. Now whom are you going to listen to as a cis white straight male (the majority of males, BTW)? Hmmm… I wonder…

      • In the age of social media I imagine people are actually a lot more antisocial than we used to be…. And if young men and young women are all online more now and actually go out to interact in person less than we used to, this would make it a lot more difficult for young men to interact with the young women long enough to ask them out….

        • Online is heavily skewed in women’s favor unfortunately. I had a female coworker that had 100+ matches on bumble and kept complaining how hard it was too keep track of. She wasn’t even very pretty and she had an empty pot for head. Meanwhile male coworkers really struggle. No surprise This will make some males bitter and lash out. Even if they do find a partner Worst part is if the social skills are bad it is a bad relationship. I hope we are not seeing a universe 25 style collapse.

          • I can’t remember which app it was, but I tried online dating over a decade ago. I noticed I wasn’t getting very many responses to any messages I sent out, and it was basically after saying yes to everyone and I had spent some time on the app, so I got to the point where I just messaged everyone a generic opener….

            I talked to my female roommate at the time and I got a couple generic photos of her, she was a young mid 20’s woman who was very pretty but idk average for a young beautiful woman.

            I created a new profile for myself, and also a second profile for her, I let her choose the most attractive photos of me and I chose some dorky not very attractive but still cute I guess photos of her….

            She had ten messages before we were even able to upload the first photo after just creating the account.

            This doesn’t mean that she got messages from guys who were someone she would consider dating. It just means she got a lot of messages. I think guys don’t realize how many messages the women get. They have to wade through hundreds of “hi how are you doing” messages before they can even start a conversation. Whereas the guys have to send out messages that are unique and capture the attention of ladies to get a conversation started. Neither is ideal, it’s just how it is

          • I wasn’t specifically talking about online dating, but women are generally more desired by men than vice versa, whether online or in person.

            I can’t imagine online dating to be useful than for more than a handful of people in my opinion.

            I was more saying since we are all online more, we are all interacting in person a lot less, which allows for more organic interactions…

            • Yeah I agree. Wanting to Go back the good old days is what is causing this trend. Though Realistically all the social skills in the world won’t bag you the girl if you are average right now. I knew a few coworkers that wouldn’t even talk to a guy unless he was a 666 man. 6 figures, 6 feet, 6 pack. No surprise they are single. I wonder if their POV changed overtime, they were in early 20s at the time. I know my old roommate lowered her standards super hard over 30 to bag a husband.

      • Well, that and also because the left basically hates them. Hearing narratives like “men are privileged, racist, homophobic, and all the other isms, phobes and ists” combined with DEI initiatives that invalidate and sabotage their hard work and achievements makes them want to disconnect from these groups and modern societal “norms.”

        Why would you date someone who resents and hates you?

  • As women gain independence, frightened men turn to patriarchal solutions. Hence a turd like JD Vance spouting hateful and controlling rhetoric on podcasts and Ahole Tate brainwashing adolescent boys. Fuck these people.

  • When I think of all the women & girls in my life that I care about, I remember that I could never be a conservative. It would be a betrayal.

    Assuming this is accurate, I’m pleased to see men in the UK bucking the trend.

    •  Wanderer   ( @Wanderer@lemm.ee ) 
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      This is out of date.

      People are losing faith rapidly in the left because they don’t seem to be for the everyday working class Briton like they used to be.

      There is a big shift going to Reform now largely because they want to reduce immigration. The left deny the situation and the right have claimed they will reduce it every year then increase.

      People are flooding to the “far right”* because they don’t seen the main parties address the main issue they want addressing and have been talking about for decades at this point, generations even.

      _* not actually far right. But the left love throwing that term around to anyone that has a different opinion to them. They just want lower immigration, which historically has been a left leaning ideology

          • The graph appears to show that from approximately 2010 (Libdem & Tory coalition) onwards for women, and a few years later (when we somehow got a full Tory government) for men, the younger people shown on the graph, said or thought something along the lines of “this Tory government is awful and we need to move in the opposite direction”.

              • I agree that “not voting for the Tories” was pretty much the main driver, but these are not “new options”.

                The Brexit Party’s “surprise” increase this year, was in many ways just returning to the 10-15% that they received as UKIP in 2015.

                In the two elections in between, they agreed to not contest many of the Tory seats, to not risk “splitting the vote” to help keep “evil Jeremy” out of power.

                The Tory vote + Brexit Party vote, added together, is lower than the number who voted for either Boris Johnson, Theresa May or 2017 Jeremy Corbyn. Fewer people voted for Keir Starmer than Jeremy Corbyn in 2017 or 2019 - so technically the biggest change in vote is probably “did not/unable to vote this year”, with an increase of 3 million.

                As ever, “didn’t/unable to vote this year” won yet another successive landslide victory of about 20 million, or about the same as the top three parties added together.

                Anyway, apologies for the tangent. The graph is particularly looking at younger people, who are on average more left leaning, and have become more so in the last 40 years. Though the recent mainstream politics/media shift towards the far right is absolutely terrifying, I don’t think it’s reflected in the young people shown in this graph.

      •  Echo Dot   ( @echodot@feddit.uk ) 
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        Look I don’t know how to tell you this but just because you live in a bubble doesn’t mean everybody else does.

        That is not “a big shift in the UK towards reform”, don’t be daft. They only have 4 MPs only two of which ever bothered turning up, they are about as politically relevant as my underwear.

        Also Reform absolutely are far right they are basically Nazis, albeit brainless lazy incompetent ones. You need to go outside and interact with normal members of the human race rather than whoever it is you’re talking to on the “I’m not racist but…” Facebook group

          •  Echo Dot   ( @echodot@feddit.uk ) 
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            You’re taking data out of context. You can make it say anything when you do that.

            Labour won with fewer votes than they got in the last election which they lost. That tells me that this was mostly a protest vote people weren’t voting for any particular party that were voting for not to the conservatives.

            But in the 2025 election the conservatives won’t be in power and so there won’t be a protest vote against them. If reform do well in those elections that would be evidence of a shift until then the balance of probability is simply that they were the obvious processed vote for the right-wing inclined that did not want to vote for the conservatives.

            You cannot draw any conclusions from the results of such a politically unstable period.

            Additionally I’m not letting you off the hook for in any way trying to suggest that the reform party are in any way shape or form anything but a bunch of bigoted misogynists. How dare you suggest that they are simply a right-wing political party that the other parties are trying to lambast in an attempt to discredit them. They are far right extremists, stop trying to defend them.

            • The average person wants lower immigration plain and simple.

              That’s what reform is largely winning votes on. Something that historically has been a left view.

              They are no where near as bad as everyone makes out. People are trying to paint them as Nazis.

              • Nigel farage literally (as in he actually did this) posed in front of a poster that was styled on Nazi propaganda. The only people making them out to be Nazis are themselves, they are being Nazis and people are pointing it out, that’s not people defaming them, that’s people pointing out that they are being Nazis. People like you are allow the hard right thrive, the bigots and racists are allowed to exist because apologists like you make excuses for them.

                Please be better. Or if you can’t be better at least stop spreading your uninformed opinions on the internet, no one needs to hear the opinions of a Nazi apologist.

                https://images.app.goo.gl/pL7xhiTGuwQPxKaKA

                Here is a link in case you might want to possibly educate yourself. I recommended it because currently you sound like a tit.

                • Wow being against uncontrolled immigration is so Nazi.

                  Literally no other person could think immigration should go down for any reason or any amount without being a Nazi.

                  I’m really glad you showed me a photo of someone concerned with immigration when it’s the number one issue in the country. Really proved that, that guy is a Nazi.

                  I do think he’s a dickhead. But Nazis and reform are different.

    • People like you are why we cannot discuss political ideas without being put into a bucket and given some horrific label. Being conservative doesnt make u sexist some conservative views are sexist same as some progressive view are sexist. Stop spouting hate like politics is a football team and practice critical thinking where you can take ideas from all perspectives.

    •  jol   ( @jol@discuss.tchncs.de ) 
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      Also hard to believe the American average is +20 leaning lib. The country is represented by a fascist party and a centrist party, and anything more left than the centrist party is considered “far left”.

      • The Y axis here is not an absolute international political compass. It measures which political party each person favors, and judging by that country’s local standards categorizes that party as either left or right.

        A rising number in the US chart means a larger number of people prefer democrats over republicans. It doesn’t mean that people’s stances are necessarily moving further left. Similarly, it’s no coincidence that the inflection point where UK numbers rise by a lot correspond to Brexit: the party seen as responsible for the unpopular change lost a lot of support, but that doesn’t mean the population has so sharply moved drastically more progressive in such a short time.

    • oh yeah, South Korea has gone off the rails recently. lots of news stories about men assaulting women for the assumption that they’re feminists, anti-woman politicians being elected, women losing their jobs for being (or assumed to be) feminists, it’s all Very Not Good.

      • It’s very easy because the Tories have recently decided that the reason people don’t like them is because they’re not fascist enough, so they’ve doubled down and decided to be more fascist. At least trying to be, but it’s difficult to be fascist when you lost power due to being awful fascists.

        Weirdly people didn’t want that, and so now they’re even less popular.

          •  Echo Dot   ( @echodot@feddit.uk ) 
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            In the north of England certainly. Not sure how much people in London care about Thatcher.

            I was thinking more recently about Boris and his various illegal activities. Oh and the crashing of the economy by the disability hire. Or the fact that our most recent excuse for a Tory prime minister basically allowed the Extreme right-wing free reign because he was incapable of standing up to them.

    • Anti-feminism has taken a huge hold in SK. it’s partially related to the draft, but that’s nothing new. women have been getting increased respect over the past decades, esp in sharp contrast to the pre-war era when women didnt even deserve names beyond “X’s mom”

  • It’s weird that the axes of where “centre” is remain stable over time. Can you imagine comparing “left vs right” between the 1890s and the 1920s? Like a bunch of stuff happened in between, history happened, and that tends to redefine left, right and centre.

  • The important thing here is to know how did they measure young people’s political ideologies. I wouldn’t expect it was self-perceived as currently, people have a hard time admitting they are conservative compared to admitting they sympathize with a conservative party.

    If it was determined by a questionnaire, it would be interesting to see what questions were included. Maybe the questions weren’t well planned and that’s it. Maybe they equalled feminist takes to progressive liberal ones, which is something that can be discussed. In this case, I would be picky about the origin of the graphics.

  • The gap sounds plausible, but I highly doubt the overall positions relative to 0.

    E.g., the Federal Republic of Germany has had conservative chancellors for 51 years out of the 75 since it was founded. We did not have a constant left majority (I assume that is what they mean by liberal, since the actual sense of the term doesn’t make sense as an opposite to “conservative”).

    Edit: I fucked up, this is only about people below 30.

      • Older men are generally already in a position of benefit, locked in a system where they cannot be taken down from their position of power. Reforms are coming at the beginning of the chain (entrance to university, internships and early job opportunities). Young men in families where their father/grandfather were in systems that benefited them - and also nepotism - have the understanding they will need to do very little to succeed. They have not put the effort in because they were told they would not have to compete.

        Have a look at old laws for where you live in the world. Find out whether your mother or grandmother actually had the opportunity for higher education, or even whether she could get/keep a job after she had children and then form your own conclusions from there.

  • Sauce, for those interested - https://www.ft.com/content/29fd9b5c-2f35-41bf-9d4c-994db4e12998

    In the US, Gallup data shows that after decades where the sexes were each spread roughly equally across liberal and conservative world views, women aged 18 to 30 are now 30 percentage points more liberal than their male contemporaries. That gap took just six years to open up.

    So it might be worth taking it with a pinch of salt because I’m betting it’s using the very dumbed down “liberal vs conservative” 'murican political view. Maybe skew all results down 3-6 points.

    •  s3p5r   ( @s3p5r@lemm.ee ) 
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      For anyone else also interested, I went and had a look at the links Dessalines kindly provided.

      The source on the graphs says “Sources: Daniel Cox, Survey Center on American Life; Gallup Poll Social Series; FT analysis of General Social Surveys of Korea, Germany & US and the British Election Study. US data is respondent’s stated ideology. Other countries show support for liberal and conservative parties All figures are adjusted for time trend in the overall population.” Where FT is financial times.

      It’s not clear how the words “liberal” and “conservative” were chosen, whether they’re intended to mean “socially progressive” and “socially traditional” or have other connotations bound with the political parties too, and whether the original data chose those descriptions or if they’re FT’s inference as being “close enough” for an American audience.

      Unfortunately the FT data site is refusing to let me look at them without “legitimate interest” advertising cookies so I can’t tell you much more or if there’s any detail on methodology.