CAFE by GE for those who are wondering.
We are renovating our house including all new appliances. I have told my partner to make sure we get non smart appliances. This is why.
Yes I can setup a VLAN for it to be on but that’s not the point.
You didn’t buy an oven. You bought a node for someone else’s botnet.
Whenever someone designs or purchases a smart device, this is what they need to be told. Is it really worth the risk for potential harm?
Hanlon’s razor, but its interesting to imagine that some Russian, US, Israeli, Chinese, etc agents infiltrated management at appliance manufacturers and convinced them to make all their devices smart, just so they could build bigger botnets
they’re using the Wi-fi radiation to cook your meals /s
Thats really, really dumb. I can understand maybe wanting the option of having your oven ping your phone when the timer goes off, but what could it possibly need internet access for in order to turn on the heating element and a fan for a set period of time??
It doesn’t need it. That’s exactly the point.
Even though air frying doesn’t need Internet, the manufacturer is restricting that feature as a way to force you to set up the WiFi, so they can then slurp up all your data.
They’re literally holding the feature hostage, as motivation.
Is data on when I turn the oven on, and how long I run it for, even worthwhile? Or do you think it’s sniffing out other info from my network?
I’ve honestly come to the conclusion that some companies have management that actually believes its worth while to collect the most meaningless telemetry data, even after the ridiculous cost of bandwidth, database storage, hosting, etc. which all become more bonkers the larger the dataset. I’ve seen the cloud bills for actual useful data, I don’t want think about how much they must be paying AWS/Azure/GCP to host such worthless data. There’s no way its at all profitable to do so
Is data on when I turn the oven on, and how long I run it for, even worthwhile?
They wouldn’t be holding you hostage for it if it wasn’t.
Nah. Corporations aren’t all knowing godlike beings. They are run by stupid people who make mistakes, just like us.
Some people just want to watch the world burn.
At the bare minimum, they’re going to use that data to figure out, on average, how much use it gets while under the warranty period. They’ll use that to further cut corners on the materials or other design considerations.
I had a bakery/kiosk mix of shop, where I baked bread every morning for 13 years or so. There was a customer who questioned my oven, because she actually does not know if it really radiates. And how I can be this sure about it. Its a damn oven! Like one in every household, just a bit bigger. People are really this dumb. Besides, it wouldn’t be legal… oh man still upsets me. Not because of being accused for, but it upset me that people like her have the right to vote.
they’re using the Wi-fi radiation to cook your meals
You’re thinking of microwaves.
The microwave region extends from 1,000 to 300,000 MHz (or 30 cm to 1 mm wavelength).
Source: https://www.britannica.com/science/electromagnetic-radiation/Microwaves
2.4Ghz, and 5Ghz are microwaves. Your typical microwave oven operates at about 2.45GHz due to resonance frequency of water. 2.4Ghz wifi is literally a typical microwave’s neighbor.
The difference is sheer amount of power and shielding. Not the type of radiation.
It may very well be. However, with how matter-of-factly you said it, some people might not think it’s a joke.
The water resonance thing is a myth, AFAIK. Strong absorption is actually a bad thing for a microwave oven, because then it would only heat the surface. The way they work is effectively bouncing the radiation through a barely-absorbing dielectric thousands of times, to get the effect really even.
The frequency is probably just an easy one to build magnetrons for.
The frequency is probably just an easy one to build magnetrons for.
The real reason is that that range is reserved for consumer devices so that it doesn’t interfere with actual ISM sanctioned communications as enforced by the FCC. We just also decided to put wifi in the same range cause they’re stingy releasing frequencies for public use.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISM_radio_band#Frequency_allocations
But research was done on it cause of course it has been.
https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/0031-9120/39/1/006
This article deals with the generation of microwaves in the oven and includes the operation of the magnetrons, waveguides and standing waves in resonant cavities. It then considers the absorption of microwaves by foods, discussing the dielectric relaxation of water, penetration depths of electromagnetic waves in matter and, in considering the possible chemical changes during the microwave heating, multi-photon ionization or dissociation.
So you’re likely right that it’s not water resonance, but chassis cavity resonance. I can’t say that I’ve read deeply into it. And thinking about it I remember hearing something about some of the high level stuff that I just read in relation to this article. I probably ran into it in passing and just failed to recall it. But to be frank, I’m okay just calling it voodoo wizardry in of itself. But I have to understand wireless communications stuff for my profession, and it’s well known that it’s basically the same range as wifi 2.4ghz/bluetooth/other consumer standards that sit in the same crowded space.
There’s several ISM bands, though, pretty evenly spaced. The 13.5MHz one is used for passive RF chips like on credit cards, for example. They’re skinny, but for purposes where bandwidth doesn’t matter they can be. For other purposes bandwidth is scarce enough there has to be tight regulation.
Actually high water absorption happens in mm wave bands up in the hundreds of GHz (and THz too, if we could make a decent transmitter). Those fucked up riot control devices that make your skin feel on fire work based on that principle, because the heat will only go deep enough to hit pain receptors. Presumably, they stop working if you get a water mixture of any kind on the window, too.
That could work if you amped the waves up and trapped them in a confined, isolated space, no?
Maybe if you could amp up the wattage by a 1000 fold, sure
We’re not trying to be efficient, we are trying to be innovative!
Listen, the Behemoth probably wouldn’t even survive a shot from the wifiaser.
I for my part would rather like to use the microwave for Hi-Power WiFi (and you can hold a bag of popcorn into the datastream for nutrition too!)
I’m not sure if that’s possible, but if, not in this size. You would probably need an oven in the size of an entire truck maybe? It probably needs lot of energy for both, isolating and transforming/amping the signal. At that point the power going in to transform the signal could be used more efficiently otherwise to achieve the same goal without Wi-fi (as those small microwaves proves it).
That’s a big, honking “no” from me.
It’d be one thing if the “smart” features were there but only supplemented the basic functionality. It’s another entirely for those basic features to require an internet connection.
Out of curiosity, did the product description indicate the internet connection was required? I’m soon to be replacing some appliances and want to know what to look out for (besides all mentions of “wifi” or “smart”).
did the product description indicate the internet connection was required?
That’s an important question.
That said, we were recently appliance shopping and none of them said that it was required, but a couple of the negative reviews mentioned it.
We ended up choosing one of the very few that didn’t list wifi or an app as a feature. Hopefully there isn’t a stealth modem hidden in there somewhere. I guess we’ll find out next week when it’s delivered…
Thanks for the additional insight.
A coffee maker, I’d just return. But a dishwasher, refrigerator, oven, etc would be a huge hassle I’d want to avoid. I think my best bet, like you said, is to just look for one that has absolutely no mention of w-fi or “smart”.
Why the fuck does an oven have a touch screen? That’s a horrible idea. Good luck cleaning your kitchen without accidentally hitting “buttons” on the oven! And heaven forbid food splatter turns on your oven broiler.
How about the motherboard dying before the oven does
I don’t love touch screens on ovens either, but you just press the lock button and then you can clean to your hearts content.
I would hope it’s a special, heavy-duty kind at least.
They’re on everything because it legitimately just is a good way to get lots and lots of controls and displays on a limited space.
I would hope it’s a special, heavy-duty kind at least.
I’ve seen an expensive microwave with a capacitive touch panel right above the door (and the door was the classic oven style, so attached by the bottom edge). If you ever had a phone with crappy moisture detection, you know where this is going.
You put your food in the microwave. Turn it on and let it heat the food up. Open the door, take the food out and close the door again. Congratulations, your microwave has probably just turned itself back on, because it detected the humid hot air rising from the briefly opened door as you touching the screen. And because most of the touch screen is “touchable”, there’s a pretty good chance this gust of humid air can successfully pick a cooking/heating mode and confirm it.
The microwave randomly navigating its own touch screen happened pretty much every time, passing all the menus and turning on was successful about 10% of the time.
In short, I wouldn’t expect a microwave interface to have any thought put into it.
Oh my god, that’s horrible.
Yeah, the touch screen is awful, but just try finding a decent induction range without one and without spending twice as much for the privilege. (It seems that induction ranges are the most popular for this unfortunate design trend.)There’s not really any choices out there. You can lock the screen, which is great for cleaning. Just don’t do that while you’re using the oven or range because it turns everything off and cancels the bake.
I do love everything else about my induction range though. Cold searing stuff is faster and easier to get right. I can bring a pot of water to a rolling boil in about 4 minutes.
Smart appliances are such a ridiculous scam.
I can totally see a point in some of the features.
The other day my wife and I got 20 minutes from home before I said “oh shit I don’t know if I turned the oven off”. Turns out I did, but we had to drive home to check. I would have loved to pull up an app that told me it was actually off, or even if I was on be able to turn it off from there.
With that said, it’s not worth all the extra bullshit in my opinion.
And what if someone else downloads the app and turns in on?
Then the cookies are going to be burnt
That’s always a possibility especially when every company under the sun is making smart things on a whim for as cheap as possible. I don’t trust any of them as far as I can throw an oven.
I have a few random smart things, but before I connect them to the internet I make sure they have a decent api that I can use, block external access from the router and set up a little interface so that I can VPN into my home and control stuff if I need to. So in order for anything to be compromised my whole network would have to be owned. Which is still possible but I trust that a lot more than letting 20 different apps for each device have access to anything in my home.
Another way to say this is that a hacker needs only access to your private network to gain control of all connected devices.
IMO this is hardly worth it when the benefits are I can check my oven remotely or I can check what the vacuum is doing.
I tend to not buy connected devices if it can be avoided.
I actually find it very nice to get notifications about my toaster oven being preheated or done cooking, or being able to see how much time is left or remotely stop it.
For OUR best experience ( not yours )
F&&& that. Send it back.
We can’t say the word “Fuck” here? Serious question; why did you self censor?
Do what you like, friend, as I did. Why? I don’t swear a lot in person, and for me, I communicate the same online and off.
Good point. Not everyone swears like a trooper. I’m ex British army so can live with it. But I wouldn’t swear in mixed company or in front of my daughter, even though she is over 21.
To each his own, of course, but coy swearing is still swearing.
Actually I do sympathise. I swear too much (but not more than the average Aussie) and wish I could train myself to use some other intensifiers in my language but most of them lack intensity. By Jove! My word! Sweet zombie Jesus! Drokk!
So basically you paid money to store someone else’s oven. How long before we are installing vending machines in our kitchens instead of fridge and stove.
Straight out of Unauthorized Bread from Doctorow
Here’s a link to the story for those interested.
That’s an awesome idea. I’ll have my engineers build it into our next product line.
Stole it from my character in “Shadows of Doubt”
But they told me I can just not connect it to the internet and it’ll be just like any dumb device.
Eventually these things will come with modems built in so you can’t even do that.
My APAP machine has a sim card and unless I am careful to not disable airplane mode every time I start it up, it will send all of my health data to company that I have signed no agreement with.
I explicitly declined to agree to the privacy policy of the company that sold it to me.
If I find my data in a breach, lawyers will be involved.
Hopefully you don’t live in the US where your insurance company can buy that data and use it to deny you coverage or raise your rates.
They already do it with cars why not CPAP machines.
Cars already do that with having their own cell connection that you can’t turn off. It’s dystopian.
My microwave is a 1977 Amanda Radarange. It can boil a cup of water in ⅕ of the time a modern microwave can.
Now granted, it has zero fancy settings and a simple number pad that does nothing but set how long you want the microwave to run.
But honestly, this simplicity is a large part of it’s charm. No connectivity needs, no features locked behind paywalls, no extraneous bullshit or never-used features. Just a tool that does only one thing, and does it exceptionally well.
I got a “retrowave” in mint green. It’s dumb, uses a turn dial to set the cook time, stands on little feet like it’s from Rocko’s Modern Life, and looks like it’s from the 50’s. Have a matching toaster and eventually want a matching fridge.
It’s been 4 years and no issues which is more than I can say about a lot of other new appliances we’ve gotten for the house.
For dumb appliances with a fun aesthetics look up 'retro (name of appliance here) and you’ll get all the brands who make stuff like that. It’s the only way I’ve been able to avoid smart garbage so far.
The fridge will likely operate far less efficiently than a modern fridge unless you have it rebuilt.
With that said, a rebuilt fridge - with a more efficient cooling system and better insulation and all seals redone, etc. - does not cost significantly more than a new midrange fridge.
Really!? That’s a bit of a life hack. Good to know.
Usually mass-produced is a fraction of the price of anything bespoke.
Well, most of the fridge is already there. You just need to disassemble, sandblast the metal and paint (if the paint is in poor condition), replace the insulation with closed-cell spray foam, replace the refrigeration system with a modern Freon-free system, reassemble and put new seals on.
An old fridge can be quite simple, structurally speaking. It’s in the 70s and 80s when fridges started getting compact, difficult to repair, and disposable.
Other than the frame, what components aren’t being replaced? I’ll admit my fridge knowledge is mostly theoretical.
Oh these are modern appliances with a retro aesthetic. Everything inside is all brand new including energy efficiency…just minus the smart features
That’s fine if you like the appearance of “retro” appliances, but that is certainly not the only way to avoid smart devices. Most microwaves, toasters, etc sold are not smart devices.
Eh, its a very easy way to avoid smart appliances and a surprising amount of people don’t know they exist.
If it’s not for you, that’s okay, but someone else might find it useful and maybe wants that aesthetic.
Does it let you control the power level at all? If it does then no issues. If it can’t, hardly an issue.
what is that thing wired into a 600v line??
Maybe just one without proper breakers?
Yes! The Amandas were the best.
It’s only a matter of time before corporate WANs like Amazon sidewalk and/or the ever decreasing cost of cellular modems and IOT contracts mean they won’t even ask anymore.
In the mean time, these things are usually programmed with minimal effort. I have to wonder if there’s an actual unlock process or if giving it a completely isolated subnet would satisfy the check.
It’s only a matter of time before corporate WANs like Amazon sidewalk and/or the ever decreasing cost of cellular modems and IOT contracts mean they won’t even ask anymore.
Then it’s time to heat up the soldering iron and disable the wireless connectivity in hardware.
which is great until you realize that if it cant connect to a server somewhere to download the latest Ad manifest it crashes the OvenOS and now your warranty is void AND you can’t bake a cake.
In that case it would be unusable in any remote area without cell service too.
doesn’t seem to have stopped them from locking functionality that does not require an internet conneciton behind an internet connection, so i don’t see why they would care.
At least an integrated modem wouldn’t set my local network at risk. They might still collect sensible data with microphones, cameras and share usage profiles etc. But from my perspective that’s at least technically decoupled from other devices.
I bought one of those ge induction ovens to swap out a gas one. The only smart feature I liked was the ability to turn my oven on to preheat from my phone. Guess what feature just doesn’t work no matter the tech support help i get with it.
I worked for a phone manufacturer a few years ago. We’d get callers who were referred to us by shitty IOT vendors who wanted to insist their buggy apps just didn’t work because our phone broke it and not because their crappy IOT “features” were clearly tossed together by lowest bidder contractors they stopped paying 2 years ago. The number of IOT devices I just referred the customer to the Google Play reviews and read them the first 5 reviews that all detail various bugs in the companion app was concerning to say the least
Please say there isn’t a subscription
Stop! The MBAs can only get so erect
Why the fuck can’t we make things hot without the internet? FFS
Fire: “I got you, bro.”
A fire is what you may get when a hacker decides to turn the oven on for you.
It’s like playing Zomboid, but you don’t actually have to break into the house to put your clothes in the oven and turn it on.
Closer to how the first Megaman Battle Network starts as the scenario cmnybo mentioned is exactly what happens.
I wonder if they will eventually make a toilet bowl to connect to the Internet. Can’t flush until you connects to the Internet just because…
There are toilets that analyse your waste and send the results to your doctor. They ID you by scanning your anus since everyone’s anus is unique. Maybe one day the results can be sent to your kitchen and your fridge and airfryer can deny you access to unhealthy foods when your toilet tells them to.
Jesús fucking christ some guy made the Adult Swim skit into a real product?
This wasn’t supposed to be real
And GenAI isn’t part of this. Not enough hype, no VC will fund it.
More likely to be bidets.
AI will analyse video of dirty bums and generate the exact pressure and aim required to get them clean.
For that to work some people have to get too much pressure. Your clean ass will have been built on the live lost to excessive bidet pressure.
You’re supposed to use water and your hand to wipe.
Some people are so gross
Use your hand like a savage?
No thanks
I use 2-3 squares of toilet paper to wipe and dry. I don’t want to run the electrical wires to hook up a fancy bidet with a hot air blower
Lol I hope you are right. Or else I will have to make sure the Internet is working before going to washroom.
This is from 10yrs ago. Adult Swim joke skit.
And no one took their idea to the market yet. Shame on those large companies
It’s so you can have the New Turkey Mode
