Why is it that compared to other mental illness’s like depression, ADHD, autism and anxiety people seem to be so hostile to NPD? I always see things about ‘mental health awareness’ yet this is never applied to personality disorders.
Just look up “narcissism”, “NPD” or “narcissistic personality disorder” and the results are about how dangerous people with NPD are and how to spot somebody with NPD or if your ex boyfriend is a narcissist etc… etc…
I was watching this video earlier by a YouTube user ‘ShortFatOtaku’ called “Low IQ Twitter Discourse Awards!” and there was this one guy on twitter who said that if you claim advocate for the mentally ill you such do so with personality disorders as well. A statement I completely agree with:
https://youtu.be/3EJedJ8MhNA YouTube
ShortFatOtaku response with “wow your going to let that narcissist kill you and take everything from you?” I shouldn’t have to explain how bad faith and unhinged that is.
Why do people think this way about narcissists? Having NPD doesn’t make someone an inherently bad person. As someone who has NPD I haven’t abused or manipulated anyone ever. Sure, I struggle with empathy, I have to make an effort to think about other people and ok I have a never ending need for validation but that doesn’t mean I’m a bad person I understand I have a problem I didn’t choose to be like this. Manipulation and grandiosity are awful traits that I have but they don’t define me. I’m a good friend, I’m a good sister, I’m a good coworker and there are people out there who benefit from my existence. NPD doesn’t have to define me I’m more then my diagnosis.
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Oof… This is a tough one. First, I’ll point out that this post is EXACTLY what I’d expect from a narcissist. Woe is me, zero accountability. Assuming you’ve actually been diagnosed by a psychiatric Dr, they didn’t diagnosed you with NPD on a whim. You were diagnosed with NPD after you did something, or more likely after a lot of times doing harmful things, and finally taking some initiative to figure out what’s wrong with you. Maybe friends or family had to really push you towards getting help. Maybe your just young enough that seeking mental health help is normalized, so you were able to go for it.
“As someone who has NPD I haven’t abused or manipulated anyone ever.” -As someone with NPD you wouldn’t be able to recognize if you had ever done these things. This entire post is pretty manipulative actually.
NPD is a very tragic illness. One of the worst parts imo is that, almost always, one of the symptoms is the person not being able to truly recognize their own disorder. This can be dangerous, and also infuriating. A person’s entire life can fall apart around them, and they are incapable of doing the self reflection necessary to understand why, let alone do the work to fix the problem. People will spend years trying to “save” a loved one, to get that person to recognize that it’s THEM who is the problem and needs to do the work, just to get to the exact same spot a decade later because that person CAN NOT recognize it. Recognizing there is a problem is the first step towards fixing yourself. Since NPD usually precludes the person from being able to recognize the problem in themselves, it becomes impossible for them to save/fix themselves. It’s truly insidious.
All those things you listed would make you a bad person if you didn’t try to correct them. And maybe you actually are. I certainly hope so.
Edit to add: asking someone with NPD to be able to self reflect and do the work to change, is like asking a paraplegic to run a marathon. It might seem to others that the person is REFUSING, when in reality they literally cannot physically do so. However, unlike the paraplegic person, a person with NPD causes harm to everyone around them, and the only thing a healthy person can do is cut toxic people from their lives. It’s not the person with NPDs fault (one of the other great tragedies is that it is almost always a result of shit parents) that they are toxic, but they are toxic none the less, and unable to stop it. I’m sorry you ended up this way, I truly hope you can let yourself be treated.
As someone with NPD you wouldn’t be able to recognize if you had ever done these things.
Since NPD usually precludes the person from being able to recognize the problem in themselves, it becomes impossible for them to save/fix themselves.
Asking someone with NPD to be able to self reflect and do the work to change, is like asking a paraplegic to run a marathon… they literally cannot physically do so.
This isn’t true. What are you even basing this on?
Hatred and stereotypes from TV.
Experience… And perhaps a little over zealous. I was trying to convey that it’s not the person with NPDs fault, but I think it came across as hopeless.
Here’s a quick grab from a Google search:
Targeting the Defenses That Sustain Narcissism
"Treating narcissism can be complex and multi-faceted. That’s because many of the hallmark behaviors of narcissism are the very ones that create enormous barriers to change.
Creating a therapeutic alliance in the face of defensiveness, denial, and a lack of self-awareness can sometimes feel like a hopeless cause. It can also seem uniquely challenging to execute even the gentlest intervention without activating the client’s defenses."
They asked why people are so hateful towards people with NPD, and I tried to explain it as simply as I could. With experienced, professional help, there’s hope for people with NPD… But the disease itself is resistant to treatment, and almost any lay person trying to help is likely going to burn out fast.
“Oof… This is a tough one. First, I’ll point out that this post is EXACTLY what I’d expect from a narcissist. Woe is me, zero accountability.”
accountability for what? Being born? Should I have known as a fetus that I would have a personality disorder one day? What did you expect me to do? Refuse to be born.
“Assuming you’ve actually been diagnosed by a psychiatric Dr, they didn’t diagnosed you with NPD on a whim. You were diagnosed with NPD after you did something, or more likely after a lot of times doing harmful things, and finally taking some initiative to figure out what’s wrong with you.”
How do you know? You think your some expert because you watch some psych2Go and pop psychology slop? I know how I treat people and I have never received any complaints from anyone I know about how I treat them and no one else convinced me to seek therapy.
“NPD is a very tragic illness. One of the worst parts imo is that, almost always, one of the symptoms is the person not being able to truly recognize their own disorder. This can be dangerous, and also infuriating. A person’s entire life can fall apart around them, and they are incapable of doing the self reflection necessary to understand why, let alone do the work to fix the problem.”
While I agree with most of what you said I do disagree with the “not being able to truly recognize their own disorder.” part. For me it’s not that I can’t recognize theres something wrong with me it’s that it hurts to think there’s something wrong with me. Maybe it’s true for most other narcissist but not for me. A another big problem is that personality disorders are not like diseases. They can’t be cured and you live with them for the rest of your life. I really wish I could get rib of my NPD and be like everyone else but I’m suck with this burden.
“People will spend years trying to “save” a loved one, to get that person to recognize that it’s THEM who is the problem and needs to do the work, just to get to the exact same spot a decade later because that person CAN NOT recognize it.”
Again, how do you know? There are plenty of people who live normal lives with NPD. Believe it or not the real world isn’t some Amazon bookstore romance novel where the big bad narc will kill and eat you. NPD is a disorder like any other so it may put you in a disadvantage but it doesn’t define you. I understand there’s something fundamentally wrong with me and I need help. My narcissism is a awful thing I live with but I won’t let it define me.
“However, unlike the paraplegic person, a person with NPD causes harm to everyone around them, and the only thing a healthy person can do is cut toxic people from their lives. It’s not the person with NPDs fault (one of the other great tragedies is that it is almost always a result of shit parents) that they are toxic, but they are toxic none the less, and unable to stop it. I’m sorry you ended up this way, I truly hope you can let yourself be treated.”
For someone who’s accusing me of being manipulative you sure are doing a lot of gaslighting. You’re probably never read a psychology book in your life and the only experience you have is pop psychology videos on YouTube and horror movies but I suppose it’s not the choice of a stupid person. They just can’t help themselves but however a stupid person is a stupid person and all you can do is disregard everything they say. I truly hope you can let yourself be treated.
I’m a mental health clinician.
You asked why people reject people with NPD… I tried to explain it. Your response was even more like what you’d expect from someone with NPD than your post was btw. You could have been curious, I am after all, just an internet stranger; who gives a shit what I think? But you went hard on the defensiveness.
You aren’t born with NPD. It’s a defense mechanism against trauma you went through when you were younger. So I am really truly very sorry you went through whatever you went through.
I’m glad you have a therapist, and I hope they are a good fit for you to really feel comfortable opening up about your childhood, and how that might have affected you.
Being able to recognize that SOMETHING is wrong is not the same as truly comprehending WHAT is wrong. I worded my original statement poorly, sorry about that. But that hurt, when you think that something is wrong with you, is the reason most people with NPD can’t face it, not even to fix it. To fix it a person needs to be able to not just think about it, but really dig into it. A full embrace of and deep dive into that thing you say hurts just to think about. Most people can’t bring themselves to even think about it, which is why they get so defensive if you get anywhere near it, on purpose or not. Good on you for facing it.
And I know there’s no cure, but with a lot of work there are work arounds you can train into your brain. I really do hope we find a cure someday. For all personality disorders. They are truly horrible afflictions.
One of the hardest parts is that it’s a non-stop 24/7 battle you didn’t sign up for and never ends and ALWAYS feels completely unfair (this is why people with NPD NEED professional help with it). NPD might not define you, but in order to beat it you will have to be defined by your fight against it… You’ll need to be “spacefox3 the narcissist who’s not going to let it win today” everyday. And we both know you can do it.
Neat job. In the context of your profession, do you think Theramintrees YouTube channel is a good resource? “Good” is probably dependent on the audience.
Never heard of it I’m afraid. After a quick skim it seems like he calls out religion for it’s bullshit in a few videos, so I like that. But, I’ll have to actually watch some videos to see what he’s about. Thanks for pointing me towards it.
Yeah he has a few videos that deconstruct different abuse dynamics.
After watching several of his videos, and most of the narcissism ones, I’d say he’s great. I’d certainly recommend his channel to anyone looking for an easy to understand intro to these things. Thanks again for the suggestion
As someone who has NPD I haven’t abused or manipulated anyone ever.
That you are aware of.
Or “…yet”.
The possibility is there, yes. But I think the best way to prevent it is to talk about NPD in a more medical way and focus on effective treatments. Honestly, I haven’t found anything like “DBT for BPD” or “lithium for BD” for this disorder. It’s very much needed.
You should definitely say the same thing to the next black man you see saying he hasn’t committed any crimes. Watching you find out what happens would be fun.
What do you mean by “aware of”? That’s quite the accusation your pushing. You must have some great evidence of my treatment of other people to make such a statement
Nah I won’t be providing any evidence. You’ve just provided it.
You are a failable human, unless you never interacted with anybody else ever you can’t be sure that you never made anybody feel manipulated or abused.
As someone else pointed out, this post is manipulative. You’ve set yourself up as a victim and when people posit that you could potentially have some self improvement, you are doubling down about it.
It’s stigmatised because the term has entered common (mis)usage to describe people who are just selfish
Kinda like how “schizophrenia” is used to describe anyone who’s a bit weird or how “autistic” is used to describe someone with a interest in something.
I love how you were downvoted for a totally reasonable take.
I don’t think that’s WHY it’s stigmatised. It had to be stigmatized before that to be applied to selfish people.
It’s a disorder that is harmful to others and difficult to understand. For others to cope with it requires navigating a complex network of negative behaviors. Manipulation and lack of empathy are the traits of a psychopath, and none of us want that.
The OP lacks empathy but evidentally desires it from others. If you understand why you need empathy, then you understand why lack of empathy is stigmatised.
It had to be stigmatized before that to be applied to selfish people.
Good point. I suspect it was a plot point in Medical Drama #17 or Police Drama #12, thus was thoroughly misrepresented.
Actually, it entered pop culture with Christopher Lasch’s book The Culture Of Narcissism
The Narcissist Scare by Sarah Z — This explains a lot, the term has been wildly misused and thus people don’t really understand what it actually means.
Plus there is a focus on punitive ‘justice’ very much in the systems we live under instead of either trying to understand people and trying to help them either directly or indirectly.
Allegedly, it is a difficult neurodivergence to live with in a healthy, non toxic way. However, I’ve never personally seen that from anyone I know officially diagnosed with it, in fact they are well aware that they have it and are trying to do better, a lot of people are armchair psychologists and love to diagnose with no proof, misattributing it to other things, either trauma or the systems we all live under which causes people to act in terrible ways.
For those who have genuinely been affected by the actions of those who genuinely have it though, I suspect they feel as if they have to see as everybody with it as exactly the same to try to defend themselves. However, in actuallity this likely just makes people worse because not having community or people to point out when you are doing harmful things or getting you help is likely going to make people act out or seek out others who will reinforce their beliefs instead of encouraging them to get help in ways that actually work instead of the vitriolic hating ways most do to them. Though yes, I get that people shouldn’t have to be around those that do them harm but by seeing anyone of any group as all the same it may be doing more harm than good instead of getting to know individuals.
Personally, I think a lot of the systems we live under don’t help with the behaviour of anyone with neurodiverse conditions nor those that need protection from actual toxicity because they are stagnating and do not allow those that need help to get it due to being alienating and often lacking the resources they need to get help.
As others have written it’s deconstructive towards other people plus NPD are hard to make understand their behaviour is problematic. In their view you are the problem if you have a problem with them. Depression, ADHD and other things do not have that trait. With them you can talk them into therapy and about potential problems they are causing.
You’re doing a lot of generalizing in this post. You seem to think you know though profess of everyone ever diagnosed with NPD.
If you are interested in NPD you could really read up on the topic. If you want to know if you have npd symptoms I would suggest to ask people who you trust and who know you well. Ask them, then listen carefully, and if 3 independent people tell you what they think of you, believe them.
Do not ask them suggestive questions, but try to ask fields or topics that npd people can have symptoms or indicators in.
I already know I have NPD and I’m not risking my friends and family finding out about my diagnosis. You’ve seen the rest of this thread haven’t you? NPD is so stigmatized that it would ruin my social life if it came out. All I have is my social life
I haven’t seen this thread. I read only the top comment, then wrote mine.
If you know you have npd you are about 2000 times better than most people who have it, as you have said it’s not a good thing to be diagnosed with it and yet you acknowledge that you have it. That’s like you are able to acknowledge that you are not unfailable or perfect.
If you really care about your friends and family you should look into therapy.
Thank you for your comment. We need more people like you. People who can see past my diagnosis and understand that I’m a person with flaws like anyone else.
Yet I still think you would massively profit from therapy :)
I’m looking into getting a therapist soon
Self defense
From what?
I believe ignorance is a common reason even among professionals. They only think of the grandiose traits; they confuse the vulnerable traits with BPD or MDD; and they think it has to be close to ASPD to be diagnosable.
My loved one developed NPD by having a terrible childhood and early teenage years with undiagnosed AuDHD. Bullying, rejection, isolation, school failures, etc. The solution was to start lying, manipulating, trying to get something (anything) going their way, seeking validation… They received a depression diagnosis only at first 🫥.
Did you know people with ASD score higher in vulnerable narcissism traits? That means this story could be common. Traumatized neurodivergent children are already at higher risk of developing mental disorders.
But no, nobody talks about NPD this way. It’s always about grandiose traits being dangerous for others (which can be part of the experience, but there’s so much more). I hope it changes someday.
People don’t understand that medicine is about helping the patient. They read the diagnostic criteria for NPD, and they don’t understand that those things are only medically significant if they harm the patient. They think the criteria is a list of bad behaviour that hurts others.
Teach people what medicine is, and the stigma disappears.
A major component of NPD is it’s harm to the sufferer’s interpersonal relationships. I think the behaviors that contribute to this, though diagnostically and medically relevant, are generally deservedly stigmatized.
This is, of course, different from the armchair diagnosing someone with NPD just because they exhibit some of these behaviors, which I do think contributes significantly to the stigma of mental illness.
Ultimately, someone with NPD is more than their diagnosis and can certainly be capable of interpersonal relationships that are worthwhile to all parties involved.
I think the behaviors that contribute to this, though diagnostically and medically relevant, are generally deservedly stigmatized.
Sure, but only one of the nine diagnostic criteria is a behaviour. Most of them are feelings. Oftentimes bad feelings cause bad behaviour, but a bad feeling isn’t enough evidence to call someone an abuser. If we start telling people they can’t feel certain ways, we’re basically inventing the concept of thoughtcrimes.
And yeah, people with NPD are very often attacked by neurotypicals for their thoughtcrimes.
Same with adults who have a sexual attraction to children. They didn’t choose to be like that, and if they make sure to not act on those impulses, they shouldn’t be demonized. Conversion therapy has been demonstrated not to work, but if there’s any way they can receive help with their impulses rather than condemnation and vitriol, that seems it would be more helpful.
So your saying I’m a pedophile?
I wasn’t implying any specific individual.
Some people like and/or need having something to blame. npd just happens to be an easy target.
How do you cope with NPD?
Also, what kind of things can other people do to support someone with NPD?
“How do you cope with NPD?”
Self reflection helps and listening to other people with NPD gives me a lot of insight into myself.
“Also, what kind of things can other people do to support someone with NPD?”
Just be understanding and don’t come the conclusions like everyone else in this thread
The thread is a bit of a dumpster fire…
I’ve been mulling over your actual question a bit. I could argue that some of the stigmatisation could just be that it’s really easy to dislike someone who’s self centred or selfish, that NPD can present similarly (gross assumptions on my part there, sorry) makes it easy to dislike someone with NPD.
Disliking someone makes it very easy to stigmatise any and all of their traits. It becomes a feedback loop.
Anyway, I hope you manage it well and hope you can surround yourself with supportive people.
Personality disorders as a rule are some of the most difficult mental health issues to treat, and Narcissistic is one of the hardest.
Because the narcissist generally manipulates others to achieve their goals, it is one of the more “outward-facing” disorders, and therefore affects others. That’s why you experience “hostility” as opposed to having mental illness like depression, autism, or depression, which affects the person who has it.
Another problem with treating narcissists is they have a complex and often distorted relationship with truth, characterized by a lack of self-awareness, grandiose fantasies, manipulation, and projection. They may use dishonesty and deception to achieve their goals, but can also adapt to situations where honesty is necessary.
Narcissists are highly sensitive to criticism and rejection, which can lead to defensiveness and denial when confronted with the truth. They may become aggressive, hostile, or even violent when their grandiose image is challenged. It could be the root of this post itself.
Narcissists are incapable of understanding and relating to others’ experiences and emotions. This makes it difficult for them to comprehend the harm caused by their dishonesty and lack of truthfulness. They are their own worst judge.
Recognizing and understanding these patterns is crucial for dealing with narcissists and setting boundaries to protect oneself. We shouldn’t soft-sell NPD. It’s a part of the “Cluster B Personality Disorders (of A, B, and C),” which are the most harmful because they aren’t as apparent as Cluster A, who generally are odd enough to draw attention, and they are not needy or anxious like Cluster C.
Cluster B is:
- Antisocial personality disorder: characterized by social irresponsibility, disregard for others, and manipulation
- Borderline personality disorder: marked by emotional dysregulation, unstable relationships, and impulsivity
- Histrionic personality disorder: characterized by attention-seeking and excessive emotionality
- Narcissistic personality disorder: marked by self-grandiosity, need for admiration, and lack of empathy
I just wanted to say that I think it is probably difficult to have a disorder that is stigmatised so much. It makes it harder to acknowledge it and work on it. You do that anyway, which shows strength. I agree that disorders do not make someone a bad person. How you act and what is the effect on others is what is important for that. We all make mistakes. What is important is to acknowledge them and learn from them and to prioritise the needs of people we might have hurt so that they can heal. I think that defines whether someone is a good person, whether they have NPD or not.
It’s probably because you call them ‘anxiety people’
