Ie not vegan@lemmy.world.
Edit: I am going to try to start my own for now here https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/c/plantbased
What do you mean by “militant and rude?”
Not accepting that people need time to adjust and maybe go vegan in smaller steps. There is even hostility towards people who look for fake meat or dare to say they like the taste of meat even though they still want to avoid eating it. Just generally being assholes and gatekeepers.
That’s been my experience too. I’m trying to eat less meat and find alternatives that work for me, but it apparently has to be all or fuck you for some. I know it’s not everyone, but somehow they seem the loudest and it’s not very helpful.
This is a natural consequence of always being attacked by non-vegans, patience is thin and communities are maintained by the ones who remain. Unlike, say, gaming, veganism is constantly attacked, so it’s harder for them to be more inclusive than a gaming community would be.
Seems a bit like a vicious circle to me. Hate against vegans leading to a hateful reaction, leading to vegans being perceived as assholes, leading to more hate against vegans etc. I guess it’s understandable, but it also seems counterproductive for spreading veganism.
Anecdotally, as a vegetarian I can say that the most vicious attacks against my lifestyle were not by meat eaters but some vegans (online-vegans to be precise, all I’ve met IRL were nice people). That’s despite me certainly never attacking veganism, I even think it’s morally superior to vegetarianism.
It’s certainly a contradiction, understanding the true nature of the problem is the first step to fixing it.
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Yup.
Eventually, maybe less aggro people will join and the cycle will break. Being ovo-lacto-veg is cool now. Or maybe not, because veganism isn’t based on ideas that modern people already agree with, but rather suggests a whole new system for how animals should be treated. Like, they’re against continuing to keep dogs as pets.
Also, a lot of people that join fringe movements have a personality that craves conflict, and it becomes an outlet for it.
Non-carnism isn’t really so fringe anymore, but that’s pretty new, and may not have reached veganism specifically.
This is the thing. You will find that close to 100% of the people defending militant veganism here are militant about other things as well. Some of these names are pretty familiar.
Previously I found that they were staunchly anti-anything but vegan and carried over said rudeness from the reddit communities. As a vegan myself it was a big turn off. I asked about this and they banned me. Reminiscent of lemmygrad on anything but their specific MLM ideology.
Lemmygrad aren’t MLM, they are ML with Dengist sympathies and are anti-Gonzaloist, but regardless most Vegans on the fediverse are Vegan because of strict ethical and moral reasons and believe in full animal liberation. It’s hard to take a half-way stance on that matter with that frame of mind, which can manifest itself in “rudeness.” Additionally, most Vegans experience tons of hostility, making them more defensive by default.
That makes sense about lemmygrad’s odd takes.
As a vegan I fully get that, but most vegan communities are hostile at best.
I wouldn’t say Lemmygrad has odd takes for being MLs, they are extremely consistent with most organized ML parties worldwide. I’d need to know what you mean by “odd,” the fact that they have an ML line or their interpretation of ML, the latter of which is very standard from what I have seen.
Back to Veganism, I haven’t experienced hostility, and I think it’s generally going to be that way unless you bash veganism or defend antiveganism or non-veganism, hence the point of a vegan community. Just my 2 cents.
That’s good to know, thanks for sharing! I appreciate your explanations.
IDK, I disagree. I’ve experienced it both on reddit and here. Everyone is vegan or vegetarian for their own reasons, I don’t think enforces a specific ideology or you can’t discuss is fair to newbies or anyone is doesn’t 100% agree.
Regardless, I will look for another not lemmy.world one.
Gotcha. In my opinion, one must understand both viewpoints, that of the newcomer and that of the tired, long-ime vegan. Looking at problems from one side alone is anti-dialectical and results in false conclusions. There will be no perfect community for the new and the old, and communities are made and maintained by the old so it will lean in their favor regardless.
Good application of dialects but they can at least be nice… :/
fuck 'em
who
the rich
I always wonder where people are going that this seems so common. I’ve been relatively low meat for a while, what’s called half-vegetarian/flexatarian. My experience is that most vegans/vegetarians just want to share their favorite recipe.
In my experience, this usually comes from people defending half-measures, which is fundamentally wrong from the vegan point of view, and thus the claws come out. If you aren’t going against the “correct” stance, vegans are very chill, as someone who is low meat as well I am working on eradicating that (which at this point is more of a social problem than individual).
I mean as a grumpy vegan it basically seems like hanging out with someone who’s like “Look, we’re reducing bombing hospitals but we still want to take the land” or something. It is a fundamental disconnect which still frames other living beings as things you can extend or revoke consideration from depending on how much you want what you get from killing them.
Would fewer non human animals be exploited in a meatless Monday world? Yes. Would that world still be an unimaginably cruel and hideous Holocaust of suffering created for selfish reasons by beings who know better? Yes.
Okay, but if you live in a world where hospitals are being bombed continuously, and you can push for bombs to not be dropped on Mondays, why would you ever not want that? Sure, it still won’t be the reality you want to live in, but it’s a step in the right direction. And if you can get people comfortable with Mondays, then that creates a much easier platform to talk about, “look that wasn’t so hard, why don’t we also include Tuesdays, and Wednesdays, and keep going from there”.
In my experience, the majority of people I interact with who aren’t vegan feel like the going 0 to 60 on full veganism is way too difficult and intimidating, especially when all their friends and family still eat meat.
Like I empathize with the moral dilemma militant vegans find themselves in, but if the world doesn’t match your ideals, is throwing a tantrum and vilifying people the best way to change hearts and minds?
Not wanting to rehash the same arguments over and over again when if you were genuinely interested you could find thousands of crystalised dialogues on the internet going over them is part of the reason we ban shit like this on vtc.
Yep, that’s what I’m trying to get at! Thank you for putting it in better words!
You’re all through this thread being very sympathetic to vegans 🤨 I wish you luck following your heart as I think it is probably a kind one.
Would fewer non human animals be exploited in a meatless Monday world? Yes.
I wouldn’t count on it
This attitude is the entire problem. You know exactly what OP means, but you pretend like the reputation the vegan community has nothing to do with the community itself.
I just want to say I love militant vegans, so long as militant means they are organized and actively creating the world they want to live in. if they are just preaching, I would not say they are militant, just evangelical.
and, to be clear, I’m neither. I just find militancy admirable.
How do you see vegans organizing and creating this world without preaching? How do you spread an ethical diet? Like that one dude saying struggle sessions and party line… for a diet, what
they can organize among themselves. affinity groups that practice direct action are like my favorite political orgs.
Direct action? You’re implying something beyond ethics and diet. But what? Honestly don’t know! ;)
animal liberation front did some good work. earth liberation front, just stop oil… you get the idea I hope
Ah! I do understand the point of those of course :)
You can spread an ethical diet by making the ethical choices more affordable, and more available, today, in capitalism.
Just like anarchists who build things like: community gardens/farms, neighborhood affinity groups, etc etc.
Great point.
That reminds me Foguangshan nuns near Nanhua University in Taiwan. They sell vegetarian meals for 1 dollar so that the ethical choice is the affordable choice.
Also, look into your local fnb. Mine is Freegan and vegan.
Oh that’s cool! Why’re they always getting arrested tho? I don’t want to be but also do dumpsterdive on occasion
They’re usually getting arrested for illegally feeding the homeless
The entire “problem” with veganism is that almost anything which starts with such an inflexible moral imperative ends up becoming militant, specifically because that rigidity quickly becomes at odds with more practical and functional versions of the idea.
Like so many similar ethics, veganism doesn’t really concern itself with creating a practical or actionable roadmap for how food supply chains can be iteratively modified towards the goal of reducing animal suffering. Militant moralists, in fact, tend to avoid such things specifically because they demand a framework of accountable progress. Demanding radical and unrealistic measures be taken, and then condemning those who express skepticism or hostility of this idea is much easier. Like a religion.
Eh, veganism is quite clear in that it doesn’t support the use of any animal products. If one doesn’t live by that fully everyday there is still benefit to doing it in part.
You’re also wrong about vegans not being concerned about supply chain ie how people get there food and how it affects people and animals.
There’s no problems with morals lol. Are you going to argue that not killing is like a religion?
You can’t think of any valid reason to kill?
There’s a lot of ideas that I agree with, but that are made into a religion. I think it’s because abstract ideals aren’t very motivating on their own.
True!
the entire problem with your comment is that you are using vague language and not defining your terms. as a result, you have presented unfalsifiable theory.
no one should believe anything you’ve written here.
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more non falsifiable vaguery
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There are a couple vegan specific instances that you could try searching for, I can’t point them out for you right now. But in my experience at least, they seem to be pretty reasonable.
Oh yeah good point! I’ve run into them too but can’t remember their names.
Vegantheoryclub.org is one, and while technically not Vegan focused, Hexbear.net is explicitly pro-Veganism.
vegan theory club is probably not what the OP wants. We are friendly and relaxed but we maintain this by a zero tolerance stance against anything except veganism.
So vegans can freely chat and talk in good faith and safe in the knowledge they won’t have to defend themselves or stumble on something miserable, but if you want a space shared with carnists then uh. Yeah maybe hexbear is better?
The vegan community on lemmy.ml is technically larger, but I don’t know if it’s any less “militant and rude.” (I put that in quotes because I have no personal experience with that community)
I’d be interested in seeing an example or two if you have the time
