New polling suggests Canadians are rapidly warming up to the idea of joining the European Union

I am asking myself if the Canadian population knows what that means to them. At irregular intervals, the EU is given more powers in order to have more power. There is currently a debate about whether the 27 armies should be converted into a European army. This would also affect you if you are part of the EU. In many areas, Canada would lose its powers and passing them on to the EU. This can be seen very clearly in financial policy. You would have to adopt the Euro as your currency and the European Central Bank would make interest rate policy. Of course there are more positive things, but you have to understand and accept that you would lose some of your independence.

  •  Daniel Quinn   ( @danielquinn@lemmy.ca ) English
    34•3 days ago

    I’m a Canadian that’s lived in the EU, and then moved to the UK just as they Brexited. Your statements here are inaccurate.

    At irregular intervals, the EU is given more powers in order to have more power.

    The EU is a collection of independent states who, through an ever-evolving complex array of treaties between those states have formed a cohesive union to pursue their collective interests. Each state makes its own decision to become a party to a treaty or not, and so what you might see as a singular union from the outside is actually a patchwork of agreements when you look closer.

    At no point is the EU “given” power, nor is it taken. However, in the interests of the union in general, many of these treaties have non-negotiable requirements. Notoriously, membership in the customs union requires the freedom of movement, goods, and capital. Additionally, there’s considerable pressure to applying members to join the Eurozone as that simplifies a lot

    There is currently a debate about whether the 27 armies should be converted into a European army.

    This is a great illustration of my point above. The EU does not have its own standing army. Instead, the member states have not seen any value in forming one… that is until recently when Russians started invading nations on its borders and the cohesive structure of NATO started falling apart. Now people are talking about it, and if the idea proves workable, some of the EU states will likely propose and possibly sign a treaty. It is highly unlikely that membership in the EU would automatically include membership in a defence union.

    Canada would lose its powers and passing them on to the EU.

    This is sort of true, but no more so than how we’ve given up our rights with other treaties. For example, were Canada to join the Schengen treaty, we’d have to allow passport-free access from Schengen member countries, in exchange for our rights to do the same. To reference a treaty you might be more familiar with, under NAFTA, Canada enjoyed a stable market for its oil exports to the US, but under that treaty, Canada’s hands were tied when looking for non-US markets for that same oil. Like any treaty, it’s a relationship with give-and-take, hopefully to the mutual benefit of both parties.

    You would have to adopt the Euro as your currency and the European Central Bank would make interest rate policy.

    This is likely, though as a member of the EU and Eurozone, Canada would have seats in the European Parliament, respresentation in the the European Commission, and would therefore have some influence on things like interest rate policy.

    Conversely, consider the benefits of joining the Euro vs. our current situation where our currency is effectively tied to the US dollar because our economies are so tightly coupled. Consider the implications of tariff-free trade without currency conversions between 27 rich countries.

    Of course there are more positive things, but you have to understand and accept that you would lose some of your independence.

    This is the classic eurosceptic line: “but muh indententz!” It’s a claim made in a vacuum of ignorance about how the world actually functions.

    All EU member states are independent for some value of that term. Canada is economically and politically dominated by the US. They’ve bullied our government, crippled our industries, and even killed national projects like the Avro Arrow, and yet we still think of ourselves as “independent”.

    We live in a community of nations, and with that comes living with the understanding that we can’t just invade other countries and take whatever resources we like. That’s a restriction on our independence, but we don’t see it that way because it’s normalised. Similarly, Italy can’t stop Germans from moving to Milan and setting up sausage restaurants, and the Dutch can’t sell their own feta-like cheese and call it “feta” because it wasn’t made in Greece. Sure that’s an encroachment on their “independence”, but it’s a move that makes sense as it also means that Italians can live in France, and the Dutch can secure the rights to the name “gouda” in the markets of 27 member states.

    It’s not about giving away your independence. It’s about forming a super-state with like-minded nations to grow your power as a collective and making that decision as an independent state.

    I’ve lived in Vancouver, Ottawa, Toronto, Amsterdam, London, and Cambridge. I watched the UK tear itself from the Union and have seen first hand what a catastrophic act of self-harm that was, all in the name of “independence”. The UK is now poorer, more xenophobic, and less safe. Were Canada ever offered the opportunity to join the EU, I should hope that we’d do better than the Brits.

    •  NewDay   ( @NewDay@feddit.org ) OP
      2•3 days ago

      At no point is the EU “given” power, nor is it taken. However, in the interests of the union in general, many of these treaties have non-negotiable requirements.

      If you watch the history of the EU and its predecessor and you will see that the EU became more powerful. It started with a coal and steel union and now it is a defense, free trade, law, financial, and securing democracy partnership. Of course this was implemented because the members wanted it, but I think this will end in a United States of the EU. I do not have a problem with it, but many people (especially the people that are political disenchantment) would not like it.

      It is highly unlikely that membership in the EU would automatically include membership in a defence union.

      The European Parliament discusses this topic because of Manfred Weber the chairman of the biggest group EPP. Weber showed its interest in this topic in the German political talkshow of Martin Lanz. The biggest advocate of a European army is Macron the French president. He does have a other view of a European army as Weber, but after trying to create a more European army structure for many years he signaled to be willing to talk about it.

      Canada would have seats in the European Parliament, respresentation in the the European Commission, and would therefore have some influence on things like interest rate policy.

      That is true but the European liberals Renew Europe are not the biggest group in the Parliament. Macrons party lost so many voters to Le Pen (right extremist). The German SPD and Greens lost many voters to the conservative parties. Sweden and Austria shifted to the right as well. The parliament shifted to the right and I think it would not be changed by the Canadians EU election results. The new Icelandic government has now announced that it will hold a referendum on the issue of EU membership by 2027. The polls in Norway becoming more and more positive about joining the EU. This could shift the EP to the left and the centre.

      They’ve bullied our government, crippled our industries, and even killed national projects like the Avro Arrow, and yet we still think of ourselves as “independent”.

      I do not have enough knowledge about the Canadian history of politics.

    •  Dearche   ( @Dearche@lemmy.ca ) 
      5•3 days ago

      Agree completely on the federalization, but disagree on actually joining the EU.

      Frankly, we’re not ready for it. Our industries and regulations have far more in common with the US than the EU, and we’ll need a serious transition period to match their standards. While I do think in the long term such standards are a good thing, it would be economically damaging in the severe in the short term.

      That said, I think the best would be to slowly match their regulations with the hope of joining the EU, without actually committing to it in the short term, but to close our relations with them in the meantime and leave the option open if it becomes more advantageous later on. Matching regulations with a fair and reliable trading partner always helps, not to mention that their regulations are far healthier and environmentally friendly.

    •  abff08f4813c   ( @abff08f4813c@j4vcdedmiokf56h3ho4t62mlku.srv.us ) 
      2•3 days ago

      Absolutely, agreed. The issue here is that Canada may not qualify, as we’re North American rather than European. (While it’s true that we’re right next to Greenland and the French territory of Saint Pierre and Miquelon, neither territory is part of the EU but rather both are considers “overseas” territories of EU members, so being next to them doesn’t help extend the definition of “European”.)

      Also see https://www.europarl.europa.eu/enlargement/briefings/23a2_en.htm - Morocco is just below Spain and Portugal as you can see on this map, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morocco#/media/File:Morocco_(orthographic_projection,_WS_claimed).svg - but it was rejected membership in the European Communities. Sadly, based on geographical criteria alone, the case for Canada being “European” is much weaker than Morocco or Turkey.

      Back in the day, I had high hopes that the CPTPP would evolve into something similar to the EU with its own version of Schengen.

  •  Teno   ( @Tenograd@feddit.org ) 
    2•3 days ago

    The EU needs to change quickly if it wants to survive. All democracies are under pressure. As a European I beg Canadians to focus less on joining us and more on US blue states to join and side democracy alongside Canada. Try to built an North American democratic union. Not all Americans like Trump…give them a choice to pick sth. else.