• fmstrat ( fmstrat@lemmy.nowsci.com ) English
            2·
            1 year ago

            Wut? You’re responding to a trend graph for Fedora’s immutable (Atomic) forks.

            Built on Fedora’s rpm-ostree system, Bazzite uses an immutable design with atomic updates and rollback functionality.

            https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bazzite_(operating_system)

            But yes, since the trend chart is showing immutable distros and how Bazzite is growing, I am saying the fact that Bazzite is immutable has nothing to do with it’s growth.

            Edit: Reading again, I realize you might not know that Fedora Atomic is the immutable base. 😉

            • j0rge ( j0rge@lemmy.ml ) 
              5·
              1 year ago

              The Bazzite team doesn’t control the wikipedia page, just the official documentation. Someone made up the term “immutable design”, that’s not a thing it’s just a container. There’s no need to confuse people just call it bazzite or a container. Atomic is a fedora brand name, it’s not a thing to classify things under.

              As you can see from the comments in the thread all this does is confuse people.

              Source: I work on bazzite

              • fmstrat ( fmstrat@lemmy.nowsci.com ) English
                4·
                1 year ago

                “Immutable”: A term to describe Linux operating systems that do not follow the traditional filesystem layout where every single file can be removed by the user with root privileges. It is more nuanced than this in the case of Bazzite, but is still considered “immutable” from the point of view of the extended Linux community. The Bazzite team would not describe Bazzite as an “immutable” operating system.

                https://docs.bazzite.gg/General/terms/

                I’m a big fan of Bazzite, but as stated in the docs, “immutable” is a term the community uses to describe it.

                Education is the key to reducing confusion, not pretending a system architecture doesn’t exist or matter.

              • fmstrat ( fmstrat@lemmy.nowsci.com ) English
                0·
                1 year ago

                Pretend your running a live OS off a read-only USB, yet any changes (app installs, config changes, etc) you make are saved to the HD. A new version of the OS comes out, so you write a new ISO to your USB, and upon booting it, all you changes are applied on top.

                This is a simplistic view of immutable distros, but thwy wrk more like snapshots. It allows for rollback. So you install v1, then v2 is a newer snapshot of the base OS, v3 is another, always building.

                The catch is they often require apps to run under things like flatpak so you don’t have to alter the OS packages. Personally, I’m not a fan for a daily driver, but it’s great for distros like Bazzite.

  • Destide ( sirico@feddit.uk ) English
    36·
    1 year ago

    Gaming will always take the lead—gamers are usually quick to chase the newest and shiniest things. Bluefin/Aurora adoption takes a bit longer because developers have to adjust their workflows, and there’s still this odd stigma around atomics. People assume you “can’t do things” on an atomic distro that you can on a traditional one, when in reality it’s mostly the same—just a slightly different approach in certain areas. Like with Nix, once it clicks, the pros far outweigh the cons. Personally, Bluefin has made me a more organised and efficient developer.

    I can’t upload the images for some reason but here’s the current numbers for the ublue spins

    • Bazzite: 26k users -> bazzite.json
    • Bluefin: 1.9k users -> bluefin.json
    • Bluefin LTS: 40 users -> bluefin-lts.json
    • Aurora: 1.3k users -> aurora.json
    • j0rge ( j0rge@lemmy.ml ) 
      12·
      1 year ago

      Bluefin/Aurora adoption takes a bit longer because developers have to adjust their workflows, and there’s still this odd stigma around atomics.

      Bluefin maintainer here, our target audience are container people, not people who want to adjust their workflows. The people we cater to don’t have an opinion on “atomics” because no one’s ever heard of that term. They’ve heard of docker or podman though.

      • TyrantTW ( TyrantTW@lemmy.ml ) 
        4·
        1 year ago

        Thanks Jorge the good work! I had been using silverblue for years and now I’m running machines with bazzite, bluefin, and ucore os. I really, really enjoy how easy to manage atomic distros are, and how they steer you towards better practices (in dev and sysadmin) by design. Thanks!

      • Ulrich ( Ulrich@feddit.org ) English
        3·
        1 year ago

        I honestly don’t know what any of that means. I use Bazzite for automatic updates, Gnome extensions, Portal/ujust commands, update rollbacks, and game mode/Gamescope. It’s simply the most usable distro I’ve found. Bazaar is a nice bonus too. Gnome Software has infuriated me for a long time and I feel like a crazy person because no one talks about it.

        I used Nobara for about a month and was constantly pestered with update notifications. There were multiple updaters, I didn’t really understand how to use either of them, and they required a lot of manual input. Eventually I tried to do something else while the updater was running and broke it.

      • jokeyrhyme ( jokeyrhyme@lemmy.ml ) English
        3·
        1 year ago

        I actually just switched from Bazzite to Bluefin on my devices, even my gaming PC

        Mostly because I wanted a more minimal/essential experience with less pre-installed packages

        I’m sure I’m sacrificing a little gaming performance, but nothing noticeable by me so far

        :shrug:

  • irotsoma ( irotsoma@lemmy.blahaj.zone ) 
    7·
    1 year ago

    Ubuntu used to be one of the best gaming desktops that was still very stable and usable for everything else, but Canonical has been ruining it to make it more aimed at business and making more ways to profit, so Fedora has been filling the gap IMHO. Still some better dedicated gaming build distros, but Bazzite is good at being a gaming distro that works well as a productivity desktop too.

  • todotoro ( todotoro@midwest.social ) English
    6·
    1 year ago

    I am a container evangelist, I find excuses to convert my jobs into Kubernetes workloads, and I frequently use the likes of podman for one off apps/processes and development. I use Flatpak frequently to isolate dependencies for the likes of Steam and Heroic.

    I really wanted to like Bazzite or Bluefin, but I can’t deal with the overhead from the rpm os-tree updates. I would frequently notice hitches for my use case (sunshine streaming), and the hoops I had to do to configure Nvidia drivers (for it to then not work as good as other distros) was tiresome.

    I went back to Arch (EndeavourOS), and I improved sunshine performance and had a driver that worked with less fiddling.

    I’m saying all this because, while I’m glad to see any Linux distro grow, I hope it starts delivering what it says on the tin eventually without compromises that I experienced. Markering on it being immutable and container focused is true, but I dont see the benefit (aside from more stability which as others pointed out, is already stable is most cases)?. Right now, its a simple to configure (assuming most defaults work for your setup) distro that is finding a growing niche amongst some users (obviously by the data shown). And thats good enough for now at least.

  • gnuplusmatt ( gnuplusmatt@reddthat.com ) 
    5·
    1 year ago

    The removal of KDE Discover has me considering going back to plain Kinoite on my HTPC. I figure I can build a sysext with the handful of bazzite bits I actually use and keep the unbutchered plasma experience

    • PolarKraken ( PolarKraken@lemmy.dbzer0.com ) English
      4·
      1 year ago

      Would you be willing to say more about what you know / experienced about the removal of Discover? Preferences included? I only noticed it recently, been away from things for a bit, and you sound like your brief info would probably be at least as fruitful as the reading I was gonna look for :)

      • gnuplusmatt ( gnuplusmatt@reddthat.com ) 
        2·
        1 year ago

        the ublue project / bazzite decided to make their own flatpak first app store called Bazaar. Fair enough its their distro. However they created it with GTK4/Adwaita libraries, so its a Gnome native app and looks completely ugly on a KDE Plasma desktop. Also as a flatpak first app store it doesn’t update anything else on your machine like what discover is capable of (cant update ostree, knew stuff etc). This means you have to use the ujust terminal app to access updates, which I dont agree with.

        I think technically you could layer it back in with rpm-ostree install kdediscover - however this pulls back a couple of hundred meg of plasma dependencies, which if you’re not aware, when you update your system would be redownloaded and reinstalled with each new ostree snapshot, slowing down the update process even further. I I tried doing it as a sysext (myrepo) but it keeps segfaulting and I havent worked out the issue edit: I have fixed the segfault issue and readded the ostree backend. Sysexts are new experienmental alternative to package layering which hold a lot of potential (check out tim ravier’s development of them here https://travier.github.io/fedora-sysexts/)

        • quarterlife ( quarterlife@lemmy.sdf.org ) 
          3·
          1 year ago

          You don’t use the terminal to do updates, updates are automatic by default.

          We also completely removed discovers ability to update OSTree. It’s never been present in a single build of Bazzite.

          This is why I don’t pay attention to people that complain about toolkits. You don’t like the way it looks so you make up absolutely disingenuous points to argue about it.

          • gnuplusmatt ( gnuplusmatt@reddthat.com ) 
            2·
            1 year ago

            I also said ublue is free to do what they want, why are you attacking me for suggesting I want to put something back the way it was? I never asked for your attention, I’m not pestering the developers about it, instead I attempted to author a fix for anyone who also is not a fan of the change.

            Yes, I dont like a core system tool not being part of my desktop, I dont want my updates to fire via a timer, and I have updated my ostree via discover on my bazzite box. I understand a lot of your target audience does want those things, an appliance type experience - I even suggested 2 posts up that perhaps bazzite was no longer for me as the target audience.

            I appologise for drawing your ire

            edit: FYI I’m not some bad faith poster, having defended bazaar - Also my particular bazzite box has been rebased between Fedora and Aurora, probably accumulated some artifacts in the process, which may explain why my discover had not been previously hobbled. Have a good night

  • dyinoffmuha ( dyinoffmuha@lemmy.cif.su ) 
    3·
    1 year ago

    Never really understood the appeal of “immutable” distros.

    There’s not a single distro out there that does everything right and won’t require manually editing some fuckup on the developers’ part. Why would we want to make it harder for us when the time inevitably arises?

    spoiler

    I’m just assuming it’s because people are stupid and like to fit in with other idiots. The average computer user today definitely has difficulty thinking for themselves and making their own decisions, so whenever someone else comes along and tells them a different way of doing things, they immediately assume that person is right.

    • skilltheamps ( skilltheamps@feddit.org ) Banned from community
      6·
      1 year ago

      Go on and keep using your distro another few years, and you’ll recognize the patterns of what keeps breaking. And then try some others for some years, and you’ll find that you can at most pick between smaller issues on a regular base on rolling ones, or larger batches of issues on release based ones. And some point you’ll find that every user creating a custom mix of packages that are all interdependent on another is quite the mess, and the number of package combinations times the number of configuration option combinations is so large that you can guarantee some of them will have issues. On top you have package managers rumaging around in the system while it is in use, and with a mix of old code that is still loaded in ram and new code on disk behaviour for these transients is basically undefinded. Ultimately you’ll grow tired of this scheme at some point, and then running a byte-to-byte copy of something that has been tested and doing atomic updates is quite attractive. And putting a stronger focus on containerized applications not only enables immutable distros for broad adoption in the first place, but also cuts down the combinatorial complexity of the OS. And lastly, to be honest, after so many years of the same kinds of issues over and over again, the advent of immutable+atomic distros + containerized desktop apps brought a couple of new challenges that are more interesting for the time being…

    • EarlGrey ( EarlGrey@discuss.tchncs.de ) English
      11·
      1 year ago

      Bazzite is the option for Windows converts that want a gaming focused Linux desktop. A lot of people are going to nitpick it to death, because they want “Literally Windows but without Microsoft”. Which isn’t happening while Linux has the market share it has. You either accept a few annoyances (while advocating for those annoyances to be fixed), or go back to Windows and accept Microsoft’s authoritarian control of your computer.

      Bazzite is a solid desktop that’s going to be really hard for a regular user to break, comes with Steam, Lutris, and Heroic built in, proprietary nvidia drivers installed, and is based on Fedora (Modern, stable, well supported).

      The only downside is KDE can be really easy to break if you’re a new user unfamiliar with how customizing it works, but if you leave it default you’re fine.

      • PolarKraken ( PolarKraken@lemmy.dbzer0.com ) English
        1·
        1 year ago

        Just in the name of completeness, I wouldn’t say that’s the only downside. I definitely have some stability issues with Bazzite, only when gaming though. But game crashes, occasional OS crashes, that hasn’t been exactly rare for me. But I will say, gaming is about the one thing in my life I’m almost unwilling to troubleshoot these days. Could be something specific to my setup that is uncommon for others, making my data point unhelpful.

        And by and large, I’d absolutely recommend it for any Windows user who wants an easily transferable user experience and broadly fantastic gaming support with minimal fuss.

      • Natanox ( Natanox@discuss.tchncs.de ) English
        3·
        1 year ago

        Because it sucks? 🙃

        Like, seriously, Manjaro had so many problems already that were completely preventable, makes stupid mistakes, bloats itself up with nonsense and provides no stability improvement over Arch whatsoever (which is a bad thing). On the contrary, it apparently even introduces additional bugs.

        I’m not surprised they accidentally DDoS’ed the AUR, given they also have a docker script that spins up every single time an image is downloaded to push a change to git to increment a counter. Every. Single. Time. A full docker container. From scratch.

        I’d only ever recommend Manjaro to people I really don’t like.

        • dyinoffmuha ( dyinoffmuha@lemmy.cif.su ) 
          1·
          1 year ago

          Nice automated response. Pretty sure that hasn’t been an issue for years.

          Linux Mint’s website was hacked and they served a malicious ISO, but the useful idiot crowd never talks about that.

          The snowball effect is real, and if you can’t see it then you’re probably a part of it.

          The main reason why people hate on Manjaro is because it makes it easy to use a historically complicated distro. Anyone rational person who has been in the free software ecosystem for a substantial period of time will recognize that there are many morons, elitists, and losers who like to make things more complicated than they need to be to feel superior to others.

          Also, people don’t like when another distro is better than theirs, which Manjaro is for the vast majority of rational users.

              • pineapple ( pineapple@lemmy.ml ) English
                2·
                3 months ago

                It’s been 11 months and I haven’t heard any talk about Manjaro for a while, not much about Endeavouros either. I’m sure Endeavouros is still a good choice but Cachyos has become really popular and I have started using it as my first arch based distro and it’s great so far.

    • vga ( vga@sopuli.xyz ) Banned
      1·
      1 year ago

      CachyOS might be the easiest one that gives you something decent. It’s basically an Arch Linux with slightly better compiler optimizations and tweaked kernels. Also a tweaked version of proton in the core repos.

      Started by a German dude so EU++ or something. And of course it’s based on Arch Linux, which was started by a Canadian dude.

      It’s on top of distrowatch too, but I have no idea what that implies.

  • pirat ( pirat@lemmy.ml ) 
    3·
    1 year ago

    Neat!

    I’ve been running Garuda on my main rig for a minute. I thought all would be good but some of my music production stuff has been a bit slow to catch up as far as updates in the AUR vs the official .deb releases (and I haven’t tinkered enough to just make that work myself).

    Being able to install .deb otb seems nice; I was planning on running a new framework 12 laptop on it (which I dream of getting for a new performance rig for my music) but I may install it on my current performance rig to see how it runs.

    How well does it play with nvidia? If it’s all good and I eventually switch on my main rig I’d love to be able to run a local GPU supported AI. I know that for nvidia I have to have drivers that support cuda stuff.

    • marcie (she/her) ( marcie@lemmy.ml ) OP
      3·
      1 year ago

      Nvidia open source drivers are working pretty good, I have no complaints. Local AI stuff can be a little annoying to setup as a beginner I bet, but if you run it through llama.cpp its smooth sailing. I recommend something like StabilityMatrix (app image) if you have no clue whats going on