Choosing not to reproduce because it’s unethical to force more humans to live as indentured slaves under capitalism on this dying hellworld… is basically the opposite of fascism?
That you also consider antinatalism cringe though makes me think you either just don’t understand what any of these words mean, or that you’re an Overton centrist who’s just one little push away from becoming/owning a trad wife and feeding your offspring into the meat grinder to make billionaires happy.
How do you figure you have the authority to force someone into existence? Like, for real. To me this feels like the most selfish act possible. I can’t see any reasons that would stand up to scrutiny to have children other than “cause I wanna”. And yes. It’s forcing them. It’s not “a gift”, since a gift can be declined.
I know several new dads who would be absolutely livid at the thought of someone calling them “selfish” for what they’re currently submitting themselves to XD
A lot of us had shitty parents and find it easy to transpose those traits onto all parents. But there at least as many parents out there for whom it’s absolutely the largest sacrifice they’ve made in their entire lives. It’s them pouring all of their collected love, knowledge, and material means onto someone else so that they don’t leave this Earth having only taken from it.
And if their kids grow up anything like me, they’ll be grateful for that choice and happy to be alive.
Ok but this kind of doesn’t answer my question… Also to the point of “don’t leave this Earth having only taken from it” yeah, it’s even worse, cause now there is a whole new person that will also take from the earth.
And if their kids grow up anything like me, they’ll be grateful for that choice and happy to be alive.
And if they don’t, they might not be. That’s kind of my point. A HUGE gamble like that is totally okay to take for yourself but not for someone else, without their consent.
This is like having a tantrum about vegans because you think vegans want to stop you from eating animal products because they think it’s wrong.
Antinatalism is a personal philosophy, nobody is forcing anyone to do anything. I have chosen not to procreate because my experiences have brought me to the conclusion that it is unethical.
You can go ahead and make more people or torture animals if you want, I’m not part of that. Neither the vegans nor the antinatalists can actually stop you, combined we’re probably only a few million worldwide. We’re judging you for your choices, but that’s about it.
Is it some kind of psychosis? Like how do you just decide words mean something completely different and flat out keep refusing to listen, learn and change your view after numerous people politely keep pointing out the definitions you’ve decided upon, are objectively wrong?
Lol wait did you actually take the time to read through all my comments? Seems like that ego you’re so proud of abandoning got a little bruised, buddy.
I know reading comprehension can be hard, so I’ll spell it out more explicitly for you. Like you, I’m trying my best to be vegan. And like you, I neither have nor want children. The difference between us is that I don’t think everyone who hasn’t given up hope on humanity is a terrible person.
There’s various reasons for antinatalism IMO, and the two biggest ones are because people think they cannot (and never will be able to) afford children, and also because they recognize the suffering the children would go through.
Like, realistically, your children inherit a lot of your traits, and if you’re suffering in this world, what reason is there to believe that it will be different for your (hypothetical) children?
And also having children is vastly expensive. It costs $100K dollars upwards just to raise them to puberty, and that’s optimistic estimates assuming no future inflation. And then there is the whole uncertainty of the future labor market. So, would you rather spend that money to bring another suffering being into this world, or would you rather say “fuck it” and enjoy your own time on this planet instead?
Emotionally-founded movement masquerading as ethically-founded
Driven primarily by resentment
Distinctly Malthusian
Condemns a fundamental process of biological life
Primarily advocates abandoning the world before improving it
Adherents frequently direct their anger at mostly non-political actors
Yeah it’s disturbing that you’re getting so many downvotes simply for being bold in your stance here. I mean I do understand why… There are strong and often unexamined emotions at play here. But it’s still disturbing. Antinatalism isn’t eugenics but it sits right next to eugenics in a logical process. It’s positions on ecology and it’s emotional social resentment place it on a pipeline to fascism.
Is “antinatalism” some kind of organized movement or something? Because I think the reason that they’re getting downvotes is because it comes off as saying “your personal choice to not have kids makes you a eugenicist and a Nazi, kids are the best thing to ever happen to you in life and everybody wants them, even if they say they don’t.” It certainly came off that way to me, but I’ve never heard the term before. I just don’t want to bring another life into this hellhole of a country on this burning world that we continue to do nothing to fix.
@EldritchFeminity@infinitesunrise I’m not sure if it’s organized, but it does describe a specific school of thought that isn’t just “I don’t personally want to have kids.” Antinatalists generally believe that it’s unethical for anyone to reproduce. The core argument is usually that since you can’t consent to being born, you can’t ethically impose it on someone against their will. It tends to go hand-in-hand with misanthropic ideas such as that humans are destructive to the planet/fundamentally cruel or that life in general just sucks. Ultimately, the thesis is that humans should extinct ourselves. Given the current state of the world, it’s gained some traction amongst groups of people trapped deep in despair right now. (Which, let’s be real - there are a lot of on Lemmy)
Exactly. I don’t have ideological bases for my personal preferences, which I then promulgate to strangers online.
Have your heard of Cappucinism? A frothy espresso drink is the only kind of coffee to take with breakfast! I spend so much of my time telling others that I barely have time to wazz up the milk! Huaaagh I can’t stand Americanists, you bitter assholes are a crime against humanity. Might as well be intermittent fasters and skip the whole meal!
I get that hope is scarce these days, but hope is always a leap of faith. The point isn’t to make the jump, the point is to jump at all.
I don’t think there’s some central antinatalist org yet, but there are smaller organized groups. I first encountered the whole philosophy when a group called Stop Having Kids put up billboards and tabled on the street here in Portland.
I think your stance on childbirth is fine, it’s the same as mine. It’s a decision for ourselves that we don’t feel we’re prepared to equip a new human to operate in the world when it’s in this state. But take our stance and make it an organization, if it’s anything more than a support organization for people who’ve already made that choice then it’s going to be about telling others to not have children too, and arguing that they’re doing an ethical wrong by having kids.
Antinatalism is cringe (and also fashy)
Choosing not to reproduce because it’s unethical to force more humans to live as indentured slaves under capitalism on this dying hellworld… is basically the opposite of fascism?
That you also consider antinatalism cringe though makes me think you either just don’t understand what any of these words mean, or that you’re an Overton centrist who’s just one little push away from becoming/owning a trad wife and feeding your offspring into the meat grinder to make billionaires happy.
I’m an anarchist and a trans woman but ok
Antinatalism is ecofascist eugenicist bullshit
From one anarchist trans woman to another:
How do you figure you have the authority to force someone into existence? Like, for real. To me this feels like the most selfish act possible. I can’t see any reasons that would stand up to scrutiny to have children other than “cause I wanna”. And yes. It’s forcing them. It’s not “a gift”, since a gift can be declined.
I know several new dads who would be absolutely livid at the thought of someone calling them “selfish” for what they’re currently submitting themselves to XD
A lot of us had shitty parents and find it easy to transpose those traits onto all parents. But there at least as many parents out there for whom it’s absolutely the largest sacrifice they’ve made in their entire lives. It’s them pouring all of their collected love, knowledge, and material means onto someone else so that they don’t leave this Earth having only taken from it.
And if their kids grow up anything like me, they’ll be grateful for that choice and happy to be alive.
Ok but this kind of doesn’t answer my question… Also to the point of “don’t leave this Earth having only taken from it” yeah, it’s even worse, cause now there is a whole new person that will also take from the earth.
And if they don’t, they might not be. That’s kind of my point. A HUGE gamble like that is totally okay to take for yourself but not for someone else, without their consent.
You need to look some of those words up.
If you choose not to reproduce, that’s fine, regardless of your reasons. It’s no one’s business.
But explain to me how you pick and choose who can or “should” reproduce without sounding like a eugenics enthusiast
Well, no one should. Phew, that was easy.
This is like having a tantrum about vegans because you think vegans want to stop you from eating animal products because they think it’s wrong.
Antinatalism is a personal philosophy, nobody is forcing anyone to do anything. I have chosen not to procreate because my experiences have brought me to the conclusion that it is unethical.
You can go ahead and make more people or torture animals if you want, I’m not part of that. Neither the vegans nor the antinatalists can actually stop you, combined we’re probably only a few million worldwide. We’re judging you for your choices, but that’s about it.
I do neither of those things. Scroll through my comment history and find something else to judge me for, bud.
Is it some kind of psychosis? Like how do you just decide words mean something completely different and flat out keep refusing to listen, learn and change your view after numerous people politely keep pointing out the definitions you’ve decided upon, are objectively wrong?
Lol wait did you actually take the time to read through all my comments? Seems like that ego you’re so proud of abandoning got a little bruised, buddy.
I know reading comprehension can be hard, so I’ll spell it out more explicitly for you. Like you, I’m trying my best to be vegan. And like you, I neither have nor want children. The difference between us is that I don’t think everyone who hasn’t given up hope on humanity is a terrible person.
@I_Has_A_Hat@lemmy.world your comments don’t show up on the blahaj end, sorry I didn’t see them until now.
I can understand that argument a lot more than the ones that come across as very defeatist and nihilistic, thank you.
I already didn’t like it, but you’ve talked me into liking it even less. Nevermind the angry arrow clickers.
What specifically don’t you like about it?
thank you
There’s various reasons for antinatalism IMO, and the two biggest ones are because people think they cannot (and never will be able to) afford children, and also because they recognize the suffering the children would go through.
Like, realistically, your children inherit a lot of your traits, and if you’re suffering in this world, what reason is there to believe that it will be different for your (hypothetical) children?
And also having children is vastly expensive. It costs $100K dollars upwards just to raise them to puberty, and that’s optimistic estimates assuming no future inflation. And then there is the whole uncertainty of the future labor market. So, would you rather spend that money to bring another suffering being into this world, or would you rather say “fuck it” and enjoy your own time on this planet instead?
Yeah it’s disturbing that you’re getting so many downvotes simply for being bold in your stance here. I mean I do understand why… There are strong and often unexamined emotions at play here. But it’s still disturbing. Antinatalism isn’t eugenics but it sits right next to eugenics in a logical process. It’s positions on ecology and it’s emotional social resentment place it on a pipeline to fascism.
Is “antinatalism” some kind of organized movement or something? Because I think the reason that they’re getting downvotes is because it comes off as saying “your personal choice to not have kids makes you a eugenicist and a Nazi, kids are the best thing to ever happen to you in life and everybody wants them, even if they say they don’t.” It certainly came off that way to me, but I’ve never heard the term before. I just don’t want to bring another life into this hellhole of a country on this burning world that we continue to do nothing to fix.
@EldritchFeminity @infinitesunrise I’m not sure if it’s organized, but it does describe a specific school of thought that isn’t just “I don’t personally want to have kids.” Antinatalists generally believe that it’s unethical for anyone to reproduce. The core argument is usually that since you can’t consent to being born, you can’t ethically impose it on someone against their will. It tends to go hand-in-hand with misanthropic ideas such as that humans are destructive to the planet/fundamentally cruel or that life in general just sucks. Ultimately, the thesis is that humans should extinct ourselves. Given the current state of the world, it’s gained some traction amongst groups of people trapped deep in despair right now. (Which, let’s be real - there are a lot of on Lemmy)
Exactly. I don’t have ideological bases for my personal preferences, which I then promulgate to strangers online.
I get that hope is scarce these days, but hope is always a leap of faith. The point isn’t to make the jump, the point is to jump at all.
I don’t think there’s some central antinatalist org yet, but there are smaller organized groups. I first encountered the whole philosophy when a group called Stop Having Kids put up billboards and tabled on the street here in Portland.
I think your stance on childbirth is fine, it’s the same as mine. It’s a decision for ourselves that we don’t feel we’re prepared to equip a new human to operate in the world when it’s in this state. But take our stance and make it an organization, if it’s anything more than a support organization for people who’ve already made that choice then it’s going to be about telling others to not have children too, and arguing that they’re doing an ethical wrong by having kids.