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“Sorry sir, we have to deport you back to your impoverished, war-torn country, because wolves pee on trees”.
Very compelling.
Also, countries need authoritarian governments because lobsters pee on each-other’s faces.
The modern notion of nation States, with clearly defined borders, and mechanisms of violence to enforce them, only arose around the 17th century.
Wolves don’t build border walls, have customs checkpoints, or leave refugees to drown in the Mediterranean.
This isn’t a “science meme”, it’s a falacious attempt to cloak reactionary rhetoric in the aesthetic garb of scientific rigor.
Pretty sure their borders aren’t made up of countries, taxes, and slavery.
Aside from like not having a country name or formal procedures, I think you’re probably mostly wrong actually.
oof
They overlap significantly. In addition to what’s seen in the image, the wolves’ territories will move around due to various conditions. There are no fixed lines that could be likened to states’ borders, only vague areas that can be likened to respecting personal space. Compare the wolves’ ranges with the white line indicating the national park border also seen in the image, which does not move around based on vibes.
The top quote is refering to borders as a state construction. Nobody denies the existence of boundaries between things in general
Nobody denies the existence of boundaries between things in general
I do, I refuse to admit the existence of rivers!
Settle down, Heraclitus!
If you look closely enough, we’re all composed of 99.99% empty space by volume…
I feel like OP is trying to use science to justify the current militarized borders and state appointed violence against the people who cross them. It’s a terrible comparison because natural territory boundaries are nothing like that. No creature in the animal kingdom has crap like I.C.E. and Border Patrol.
those aren’t borders, those are territories arrived at by wolves interacting with each other and deciding to keep the peace. has nothing to do with formal borders imposed on us by states
You just described a border.
Hint : the important part here is deciding, instead of imposed. If i go camping in a field, there is no border between me and my neighbor, but we will tend to hang around our own tents more. This is built on nothing more than will, as opposed to borders.
I mean we’re on Lemmy in /c/sciencememes, i.e. (pedantic fuckweasels)² 😆
Yes but humans are not wolfs. Each behave differently.
Primates also have territories, and chimps, one of our closest relatives, have wars over them.
and bonobos, chimpanzee’s closest relatives have found evolutionary strategies that work without wars. we have changed our ways of eating and living before, we can again. all we need, as a society, is the imagination to remake ourselves as we have before
That’s not accurate. Humans behave very predictably in most cases
The generally and predictably do not like borders and keep crossing them. You know, passwports in modern society.
I must have totally forgotten that I’m a Wolf. I’ve always thought that I’m a Human. Crazy. Good to know that now. But I want that Friedrich Merz pisses on all of them trees at the German Border, because thats how the natural way to mark ur territory just works. And everything from nature is always the perfect and correct bahaivor for everyone!
Exactly. Wolves are also one of the species that practice infanticide. Clearly there is no point in being better, and we should just replicate everything we see in nature.
Whenever someone makes an appeal to nature, you know you’re in for a treat.
Human communities have borders and territories though
Yeah but we’re not wolves 😄🏴
And yet, we have had countries, kingdoms, territories and empires for thousands of years.
At times all defended by literal walls as to keep people out.
How are people pretending they do not know this?
Just because it happened in the past doesn’t mean that it’s a good idea. Actually, the appeal to nature “argument” against borders does, IMO, provide evidence that the conclusion (borders are evil and should be dispensed with) holds, but it is not an argument in itself.
IMO a better argument is the reality of the misery and oppression that borders create: they cage humanity and the ecology and thus limit our potential, and they only serve to benefit the local capitalists, and proletarians pay the price in blood and tears for those who try to assert their right to move. And then to this, we append the positive examples from nature as empirical evidence that suggests the conclusion, with the caveat that just because something is natural does not mean it is optimal or good.
Am I allowed to immigrate across countries if I engage in a match of melee combat with the leader of said country and perform well? Murder optional.
You have my vote, melee matches to the death preferred. I think the first two matches should be Trump, then Bibi. Is there any way we can expand this to billionaires before filling out the rest of the tour agenda?
This is actually fascinating because it demonstrates a social construct created by animals. Not all animals have the same intelligence, and in nature intelligence is typically found among animals living in groups. It requires intelligence to live and cooperate with others. To me it seems that these animals actually used their intelligence to preserve socially constructed zones for the general good of multiple groups of wolves, likely by staying where the right smell is and not going where the wrong smell is. Hopefully none of the wolves discover the prisoner’s dilemma and become a wolf emperor by suddenly invading and enslaving their unprepared neighbors.
I’ve read that humans, chimpanzees and wolves are the only animals that have shown a capacity for genocide.
Dolphins will get there one day too.
Ants also wage war, with some species only stoping when the enemy colony is completely destroyed.
In that case, is it even a border if people aren’t frequently peeing all along it?
“… and that’s how I got arrested by border control.”
I guess that’s why Parisians are so patriotic.
I love how people call it natural when anyone but a human does something.
That is one literal definition of natural, yes.
“Territoriality” implies defense of an area, and many researchers create maps that help graphically illustrate the range, or territory, of a given wolf pack.
However, the area defended is not as clearly defined as a map may indicate. Territory shifts can occur seasonally or year to year.
Also notable is that neighboring territories may overlap. However, while the same area may be used by several packs, use will not occur at the same time.
Everybody is against borders until it is what they see as their land that is treaded on.
