cross-posted from: https://feddit.online/c/euro@feddit.online/p/1817064/germany-tightens-sick-leave-rules-medical-doctor-note-required-from-day-one-telephone-s
Germany’s Chancellor Merz:
We can no longer accept the extraordinarily high levels of sick leave in our companies.
We are abolishing sick leave by telephone and introducing the requirement to submit a medical certificate from the very first day of illness.
We know this is a tough decision. But we can no longer afford this competitive disadvantage caused by prolonged absences from work.
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My Dutch doctor would flat-out refuse. Something about patient doctor confidelity…
The employer never gets to see the diagnosis and is also forbidden from directly asking the employee. That won’t change in this reform either.
But the workload for doctors will skyrocket if employees with a common cold cannot simply call off from work without going to the doctor.
(Not to mention the fact that the doctor will then declare you sick for a week instead of people staying home for just 1-2 days)
Oh yeah! If the doc says one or two days (it’s a cold), but it lingers a bit, that person gets to come back to the doc on day 3. A smart doc will just write it for a week and tell you to rest up good.
Where is this assumption coming from that employers will know about any medical details? It’s just a note that says „Person shall rest until X. Signed, Dr“. This has always been the case and will continue to be so.
The change is mainly about WHEN employees will have to get this note and HOW they should get it.
Even that, a typical Dutch doctor just won’t do that. Probably because they know all too well what the effects would be, so confidentiality is a nice cover.
But the employer needs to know how long you are gone somehow… I don’t understand the issue here.
A doctor may not even confirm if a person is a patient of his/her, nor is he/she allowed to confirm, or deny, sickness of a patient. Privacy was an important thing before the internet took over. But some remnants remain. An employee can tell his employer “I am sick. I don’t know for how long. Deal with it”.
I don’t think it’s a big deal as long as they don’t see actual medical details, but I see your point. And if this works out then I’m all for it.
Though my point was that this specifically is not what the article is about.
We know this is a tough decision. But we can no longer afford this competitive disadvantage caused by prolonged absences from work.
The disadvantage:
Country Average Weeks/Days per Year Finland ~4.8 weeks (~24 days) France ~4.1 weeks (~20.5 days) Portugal ~4.0 weeks (~20 days) Germany ~3.9 weeks (~19-20 days) Belgium ~3.9 weeks (~19.5 days) @avidamoeba @Beep
And yet their overall hourly productivity is higher than a lot of countries with longer hours & less vacation.Is this days taken or days available to take?
It is days taken, always. There is no illness days limit per year as is common in the USA. In Europe, if you’re ill, you’re ill, for as many days as you are ill.
Though at some point you’ll get put on some plan of the government and stop being a “burden” to the employer. At least, that’s in my country - I don’t think that this is necessarily aligned across the EU, let alone Europe.
Same here (Switzerland), via a compulsory (for the employer) insurance.
It’s about sick leave, so there’s no limit on “available” days. If you’re sick, you’re out.
In short: days taken.@No_Eponym @avidamoeba
You think people take less than is available & volunteer to work for free for the rest?I think any policy made on assumptions is poor policy. There are employers that offer unlimited sick days. How could that be if people always take the maximum amount of time off? We know people feel compelled to come to work while ill. Absenteeism is hard to measure and quantify, and if it is being driven by factors like environmental hazards or actual medical illness then simply restricting paid leave is unlikely to fix the productivity problem and may actually make it worse.
So, good policy should show a) how many days off people get b) how many they actually take c) how many can be shown to be due to medical issues (seriously ill people will seek medical attention, even in America, and that can be quantified). If these basic data are lacking, then the policy has about as much a chance of succeeding as throwing darts in the dark.
That’s definitely a thing, though, even in Germany. Way too many employers are complete idiots in this topic, like why would you want someone with a contagious disease to come to work? It’s technically not legal to fire or not promote an employee or not extend their contract because of that, but good luck proving it.
Plus unpaid overtime is demonstrably a thing, too.
Thanks for the numbers, where do they come from btw?
I hate this passionately, for so many reasons.
They talk about how socialism breeds “nanny states”. How is this ultra conservative move not nannyism?
Did all of these fucking people go to school in the 1890’s?
Right so the problem here is that you suffer from this left-wing thinking that there should be consistency in words, actions, rules.
While conservatism is about having an in-group who the rules protect but do not bind, and an out-group who the rules bind but do not protect. There not being equality and consistency is the point.
And, almost comically, the people who create all the wealth through honest work are firmly in the out-group, and not to be trusted.
Exactly right.
I’m just lashing out at the blatant hypocrisy, but honestly, what is the point? What is that quote- they know they don’t make sense. They don’t have to. They’ll just swamp you with whatever because really, they just don’t give a shit and will take whatever they can from everyone at everyone’s expense.
Greed for power and resources, egoism, stupidity. They have a rather barbaric mindset.
I’m with you.
IIRC this flawed arrangement is in common with Japan, and often leads to sick notes made for days or more just to make sure the patient doesn’t have to go get one sick leave note per day, meaning unexpected vacations, commonly.
So already knowing how that works, is this just performative politics by Merz?
It’s the fun part of using doctors as truancy police - they have no reason not to just recommend two weeks off for everyone who walks through the door. Because honestly most people could use it.
Japan may be a good comparison on the rule side of things, but culturally how sick leave is taken, I am not sure.
On the one hand people in Japan seem to be more concerned about not getting others (or themselves) sick, seeing as they constantly wear face masks (already pre-pandemic), on the other hand the work culture seems more cut-throat so they may have more pressure to come in even while sick, not sure.
He’s just helping the commoners. He’s such a sweet gentleman!
Crazy. In the Netherlands the employer is not even allowed to ask what disease you have. If they want to know if your sick leave is legit they have to get an independent doctor involved.
Yes it’s easy to abuse the system but hear me out, what if, the employer is nice to it’s employees? They’d be unlikely to abuse sick leave.
The certificate doesn’t say why one is sick, and the employer make not ask.
Still, requiring at first day is dumb on sooo many levels…
Same in Germany, the doctor does not say why, just that there is an inability to work due to illness. On top of that it is illegal for the employer to even ask.
Lots do ask, of course.
Hey doc I have a cold. I’m also really burned out from work so it wouldn’t hurt if you required me 2 weeks off paid that my employer just has to accept.
Doctors note mandate suddenly and inexplicably reverts
Fucking dickass fascist.
“Good morning, oh no I’m vomiting my guts up, can barely go 20 minutes without explosive diarrhea, and I’m bed-ridden from excruciating abdominal pain. Better get to the doctor so I don’t have to go to work today.”
What the fuck kind of hellhole is this? The billionaires are rich enough already.
Competitive advantage my ass.
Worth noting that there already are many employers in Germany who demand a notice from the doctor (and not one via telephone) from day one. In fact, I’ve never had one that does not, both public and private.
It’s still stupid to codify this idiocy into law for everyone.
And who is supposed to deliver the note from the doctor to the employer? The sick person? What if they’re contagious?
If it were me, I’d cough all over the note before handing it directly to the bossman
It’s transmitted electronically these days.
In the past, you could just hand it in later once you were healthy or send it by mail.
I mean, that’s how it’s been in Italy forever. Some doctors are willing to diagnose you over the phone, but they risk legal repercussions, so either they come visit you at home when their office visiting hours are over, or you drag yourself to their office, potentially infecting a lot people.
That sucks
This will backfire.
Before I retired, I got put on what my employer called a “sick leave letter” which means they thought I was abusing sick leave. Which was ridiculous, I had used only about 20% of the sick leave I had earned during my career and had a huge bank of time, but they said they thought there was “a pattern” because it was often in conjunction with my weekend. This sick leave letter required a doctor’s note every time, instead of only for prolonged absences.
You know what doctors don’t tell you? They don’t tell you to “suck it up and get back to work as soon as you can drag yourself in”, which was my M.O… You know what they do tell you? They do tell you to take at least a week off, two if you can.
As I said, I had a huge bank of time. After two times where 1-2 days became two weeks, which I gladly took and turned into vacations, I started asking if they really wanted me to go to a doctor (which involved me spending about an hour going down the road to urgent care and spending a $20 copay to get a note for two weeks) or if I could just take a day or two. They, smartly, told me not to bother, which I required in writing. The sick leave letter expired eventually and I never heard any bullshit again.
TL;DR: Doctors tell you to take more time off than most people take on their own.
Well this is a step backwards.
Small step backwards for Germany, but a giant leap forward for contagious diseases.
That’s the spirit!!
In Germany, we say “Merz leck Eier”.
Or jokingly twist it into “Mehrzweckeier”, which is pronounced almost the same and translates to multiple-purpose eggs. The literal meaning is irrelevant - it’s a reaction to someone getting persecuted by the state for using the original insult (Merz lick eggs/balls).
is this the step where Germany reduces bureaucracy? or is it coming later
Social services is an investment with positive ROI, you can’t afford to save in on it
Social services is not an investment. It’s a public service. We do it because we have humanity and dignity, not because of money.
Both.
People with money brains can be sold on an investment. They won’t want to do anything that they won’t get a return on. People with empathy don’t need to be sold on helping people.
If only it actually worked. I get the impression that making poor people’s lives worse is actually the point, and the capitalists don’t really care that much about their absolute amount of money. Or they’re just neck-deep in counterfactual propaganda about how business and economics works. Hell, why not both?
For some, yes. But those are the sociopaths and those are relatively few. The rest are fed propaganda but can be convinced.
IDK. Most working class people can’t be convinced to join a union or vote left of center, and that seems way more obvious than convincing managers to give up power.
While I wholeheartedly agree, that will never be a selling point to a capitalist.
We do it because it buys us social peace. Less criminality means better life.
Piece of dog shit fascist
our companies
Is this policy limited to people who work for the government, or does it apply to everyone? Seems like a lot of extra work for the Dr. No one wants their co-worker to come in with food poisoning or a cold, gross.
That’s okay. A lot of people will needlessy suffer and instead of being sick for just a day or two, my doctor will probably give me a note for a whole week or longer. This will certainly help to be on the job more often. Brilliant. /s
