- cross-posted to:
- europe@lemmy.ml
- cross-posted to:
- europe@lemmy.ml
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Full service mentality. Love to get up in the morning, go to school for free, have all the amenities they are used to and certainly someone else really should do something so they can repeat that day tomorrow.
I served, I am on the reserve list, I am one of the ones that will go and do something if necessary. But no, you go ahead and do you, everything is taken care of, no need to take over any responsibility other than paying your club membership. I mean, taxes, sorry.
Oh wow, are we sure this is the mentality that we want to see in military personnel towards the people they’re supposed to be protecting? Yikes.
that we want to see in military personnel towards the people they’re supposed to be protecting?
I’m not sure where you’re from, but, at least in Germany it wasn’t “the military” and “the rest of the people that they work for”. Because many people had served, at least until 2005/2006-ish, the idea that we all would stand together in case of conflict and a lot of people in civil life would go back temporarily and do their service at the front was much more common.
As I said, this has been widely replaced by a service expectation. Thrown money in the magic military box, get protection, precisely as you’ve said.
Si vis pacem, para bellum.
In Finland we have mandatory conscription. It is a very good way of getting a military, whoch is dofficult to use for expansionist adventures, but very good for defence.
It is not cheap. Putting a million people through the training represents a significant loss of GDP, but imagine trying to attack a country where half the population has even some serious military training.
It is a very good way of getting a military
It is a very effective way of getting a military, allright. But good? No! It’s like “slavery is a very good way to build some pyramids”.
The conscription military only works when people feel their country is worth defending. There are plenty of people who declined to serve for moral reasons. There are plenty of reasons to criticize the system (gender equality rises to mind).
I think part of the reason the Finnish political system serves the people more than some others is because it needs to. We have our problems of course, a lot of the population is old, so prioritizing young people doesn’t always happen the way it ought to. Still, most people are OK with going, very few support abolishing the system because we know we all are needed to make attacking us fucking suck.
What I never understand about this reasoning…when “most” people feel this way, why is it compulsory and needs fines? If everybody and their grandma is happy defending the country, they could go voluntarily. Who cares about the threefiddy people who don’t go? They would be shitty comrades in the trenches anyway. So, why are people forced, then?
Tragedy of the commons, no individual downside encourages freeriding.
I think there is value in Finland’s system, when Russia clearly is a huge threat to Europe.
Maybe every part of Europe should have a system like that. Perhaps everybody, rich or poor, and perhaps even older as well as younger (not kids or pensioners though) could be trained to contribute in some way to national defence. This could include training for building weapons in factories for example. Look at how important Ukraine’s weapons companies are currently, when it comes to their national defence.
Germany got rid of it 15 years ago
Germany is no Finland though, Finland also largely have had mandatory conscription due to not being a member of NATO;
Germany would have an easier time maintaining an army alike the way France does, a fully professional large army and riot police basically being intended for maintaining occupied areas (Gendarmerie). Germany can in theory have a 1 million strong force, fully volunteer based. While Finland can have 3 million in the reserves, by forcing everyone and their nan a mandatory conscription service.
Conscription is the cost effective option if you think numbers is everything, but for larger countries you’ll get stronger militaries by keeping soldiers stay in professional lifetime careers
The current regime makes politics for old people, dances around “difficult questions” and acts surprised if they are called out for it; For one, only men get draftet, but this is okay, because of reasons; In the past you could aquire stuff like drivers licences or certificates when you did your mandatory service; Now you get nothing, only wasted time;
Swede here, I went to muster back in the early 2000s, but my hearing was too bad, and I was failed out.
At the time I was happy, I wasn’t ready for it, but these days I think it would have been a great source of self dicipline for me.
Eh, in either case, from what I have heard/read, mandatory conscription will also boost social cohesion of a population which makes sense.
Good. Slavery, forced work and stripping people off bodily autonomy is not a European value, and people who are forcing authoritarianism down our throats are no different than Putin supporters. I will fight for values, not for the flag and a song, and if Europe loses its course, its no longer worth defending.
So, assume the Ukranian people had all followed that principle. What would their daily lives look like now?
Well, all the men (like half a million of them?) who were involuntarily conscripted, kidnapped from their homes, tortured to comply and killed in action would prefer to be alive.
Alright. So in principle, the whole world should bow to the one head of state that is bound to exist somewhere that does not subscribe to these high ideals. Got it.
But…not forcing men to fight, doesn’t mean that there’s no army? I’m confused.
But anyway, if your country is attacked, but nobody (or too few) want to defend it voluntarily…maybe, that is kind of a vote with the feet, that either your odds are very bad anyways or that people rather chose to live in occupation and deem it less bad than fighting and dying ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
You say you are fighting for values, but if you’re not fighting for the nation or the union of nations that represent those values, it’s just empty rhetoric
What values? Genuinely. Which nation or union of nations is upholding good values? Germany? If you protest against genocide there, you will be beaten and jailed by the same government that wants to send you to die in Russia (again).
That’s one way to say, “the nation-state must be part of your identity”. I’m not into fighting wars for the wealthy.
It’s a conundrum, isn’t it? If one of my values is “people should not be involuntarily drafted into the army”, what to do then?
People who call military service “slavery” are in the same category as those who say “taxes are theft”.
Yes. Wage slavery is also a term they would use.
I fuñly agree with them that it shouldn’t be necessary
I also understand how the world is and that currently a tiny few oligarchs and dictators are willing to burn the world to rule over the ashes and unfortunately there is really only one way to stop that
:(
I don’t get the arguments of our youth. On one hand they say „I‘m not going to die in war for ya“ and on the other side they say „Putin will not attack us because we have way more weapons“
One has to fight for its rights, it’s not given as a present. If a neighbor country is aggressive and unpredictable, one has to serve in military service or civil service. Same as all young men in Germany did as well.
There is “no war, but the class war” because wealthy young men never see combat. Decision makers do not send their own children to die. Putin is also sending the poor.
There is “no war, but the class war”
Perfect, so we just lay down and take whatever power desires to rule our place? You really think that Germany right now is a dictatorship and any other government would have no detrimental effect on your actual live whatsoever?
True. It’s like this for the entire humankind.
Still, standard people nowadays have far more rights and autonomy than in any other time. This was fought by our ancestors in last two centuries. Even the pure possibility to elect a leader, who decides about war, is a pretty new phenomen. If you do not fight for those rights at all needed levels, it will taken away by the wealthy.
So look, this article is about young people fighting for their rights.
I won‘t place hedonistic motifs in the same line as a fight for rights for people.
I don’t know how staying alive and not getting killed is hedonistic.
It’s about your individual being and avoid suffering. Others don’t matter.
They should protest in Moscow and Washington, perhaps also Tehran…
Let’s be honnest with ourself. We are on lemmy. We are commenting from our home confort about something we don’t have to live.