I don’t see a problem with it as long as no trafficking is involved.
I agree with this. I have found that most women do not however. It has been a great trouble for me, to talk about, when trying to find a new partner.
I think the issue is the portrayal of the types of men who use such services in media. They’re usually not good people.
What incredible acting, I felt like I was there
They don’t want to date a man who is regularly going to sex workers?
- EremesZorn ( @EremesZorn@beehaw.org ) 6•1 year ago
Yeah I’m not sure why or how this would be a topic of conversation when, yknow, dating women.
@Driftking@lemmy.ml What have you been telling these women?
Yeah it should be legalized.
What people do with their bodies is their own choice.
So long as everyone involved consents sans coercion, I do not see why anyone else should care/be involved
This is pretty much my view on people’s sexuality generally.
I don’t care who’s doing what to who as long as everyone involved is a consenting adult.
Does getting paid still counts as “sans coercion” though ?
Do you really feel like you’re coercing a waitress when you tip?
This is an interesting analogy. I do get the sense that many waitresses and waiters hate their job, and do it because of lack of other options. However I do feel that by using their services and paying them, I’m helping them. They’ve made this choice, under a certain amount of coercion from the circumstances and system (which most of us suffer from to some degree, working because we have to), but my helping them get paid is helping them. I do find it important to be nice to them and treat them as real people, even moreso than people with whom my interaction is on a more equal footing.
However there is nuance here in matters of degree. I think I can tell when a place treats their staff well or shittily–it tends to slow in their attitude. I prefer not to patronize a place when I get that shitty vibe.
It’s interesting to think about how this translates to sex work. If I used such services, I would want to feel like the person I paid somewhat enjoyed her job.
Does waiting tables and having sex with strangers feel similar to you? These jobs aren’t comparable from a psychological standpoint. I never heard that it’s common for waiters to be substance users or have PTSD.
Weirdly enough, restaurant workers are some of the highest substance users group. A Google search on this subject is quite surprising.
It’s not even close to sex workers which have the highest amount of substance abuse among all professions.
I suppose it depends on how desperate someone is for money. I am in an industry where client relationships are important, but more money will not make my hard no a yes
Indeed, as I clarified under another comment
Tbh I know little about the topic and was under the (maybe wrong) impression than many sex workers are poor people that need to do it to survive. But then I guess the issue I was pointing is more about our capitalist society than about sex work
Labor as coerced selling of one’s body is an interesting view.
That’s literally all work in capitalism. You use your time and body to do things for other people in exchange for money. We’re all prostitutes, only a few of us have sex for it.
It’s objectively true.
That I cannot say, and seeing as in the vast majority of the US it is illegal, all we have is supposition unfortunately
Negotiating a price is not itself coercion.
All work is exloitation, sexual work is sexual exploitation. Its not exactly consent if the other option is being homeless or starving.
- Hot Saucerman ( @dingus@lemmy.ml ) English47•1 year ago
I want to live in a world where no one feels they are struggling so much that they need to turn to selling their body for sex.
However, I don’t live in that world, so in the meantime I support sex workers, because sex work is work.
The men who use their services? That’s a tougher nut to crack.
My partners brother is heavily mentally disabled and pushing 40, he’s still very much like a child, but obviously does not have a child’s libido. This man has never had an intimate interaction with a woman. He might never get the chance, he struggles to talk to women, even women who have similar issues as himself. I think sex workers could be beneficial for him, in the right context, for giving him intimacy he may otherwise never experience. I don’t think he would ever think/know to pursue a sex worker, but I could be wrong. There’s also the issue of his emotions began to be involved, which leads me to…
I’d be more worried about him finding OnlyFans and blowing through all his disability money each month instead of realizing he’s not actually getting much out of such a “relationship.” He’s the kind of person who a parasocial relationship like that could really damage their already troubling mental health. The same thing could happen with a prostitute, but they are less likely to hang the relationships on fake social cues that say they care about you. He’s not quite advanced enough to understand that these women are being paid to pretend to care, I don’t think.
Also, there’s other types of men who use these services I’m sure aren’t a net positive. There are plenty of conservative men who already view a standard relationship as a sexual transaction (I take care of girl = she give me sex), so they’re not far from viewing everything women with transactional already. Secondly, not only do the already view it as transactional, many of these conservative men turn to prostitutes because average women simply don’t want to date them because of their horrible, outdated views on women’s bodily autonomy. They are already angsty and moody because of women not wanting to date them, and they often are willing to take out their frustrations on the woman they paid to serve them. I see these men as not respecting and hurting the women they turn to for sex work.
Anyway, just some quick thoughts on the subject.
Thank you for putting what’s pretty much exactly my view on the topic into words.
I would like to add though that I expect of men using sex services to thoroughly check and make sure that the women whose service they use provide this service by their own choice, which means they are in no way forced, not by pimps but also not by financial hardship.
With this constraint I’m afraid that many if not most existing sex services are actually probably not ethical to use.
My opinion on them is the same as whatever opinion the sex workers have on them
If you support the sex workers, this is the main answer. If you like them but not their clients how is that supposed to work economically?
I find it weird that someone would want to have sex with someone who obviously does it only for money.
Now that you mention it, isn’t it odd that it feels weird? I wonder exactly where the line starts to come into focus between something as innocuous as paying for a meal and something as taboo as paying for sex? Obviously that’s a question of culture, but it’s entertaining to think about nonetheless…
Like, there’s definitely something kind of unusual about this specific taboo. Speaking from the perspective of modern western culture, I’d say that the following things which share some characteristics with prostitution are all individually qualified as being relatively socially acceptable:
- Paying for therapy (i.e.: buying the service of social comfort)
- Paying for a massage (i.e.: buying the service of physical comfort)
- Having a one night stand (i.e.: receiving the service of sexual comfort without buying it)
- Buying a sex toy (i.e.: buying sexual comfort without involving a service worker)
I posit that there’s something uniquely specific about the direct intersection of service, money, and sexual pleasure which makes prostitution uniquely uncomfortable for (modern western) people to think about. I might be overthinking it, though. Perhaps these three things are already uncomfortable topics to really think about so we naturally want to resist the idea of combining them?
Some people view sex as a means of expressing affection and connection, rather than as a means of having an orgasm. They would have no issue buying a sex toy to get their physical needs met, however hiring a person wouldn’t make sense to them because of the lack of emotional connection.
And some people don’t view sex that way. And sex work isn’t just about having an orgasm. That’s what masturbation is for. My understanding is that people who frequent sex workers do it for the human connection. That doesn’t mean an emotional connection, but human touch and physical intimacy are important for all human’s mental health. I’ve heard stories from sex workers where the customer doesn’t even end up wanting sex but to talk a bit and have someone hold them for a bit. Usually they prefer the respectful ones who just want sex with a human and leave though.
Yes, this is what I was getting at.
Rest assured, it is not necessary to explain the concept to me. I just like exploring the underlying why that leads to the how. My intention was to provide food for thought, not provoke the internet into explaining for me the joys of sharing romantic sex.
I think the reason is that for some people sex is not the same as any other activity you can do with your body and I think it’s not just culture but actually a neurobiological reaction.
It’s probably just odd because we know awfully little about how our brains, our hormones and whatever feelings are work. And sex is really one thing that taps into all three of these areas we don’t understand yet.
To give you another example, we can’t really explain why some types of torture are so devastating to us.
We value interactions differently because we intuitively want to be careful with things that could potentially influence us in major ways. Personally I believe buying sex feels so uncomfortable for some people because for them bonding and intimacy is connected with it. That clashes with buying it from a stranger. Also it seems kinda pointless or deranged then. Like buying a birthday party or a Christmas Eve with strangers.
Well sure, we can take it as a given that sex basically exists in its own special category. Biologically speaking, it’s an impulse older than almost any other. I think that’s self-evident enough without any need to tap into mysticism.
(Content warning: sexual violence in human history, abstract)
With that being said, it could also be argued that r-word is also deeply ingrained within human biology, particularly in the context of warfare. Even if we discount the (extensive) evidence within the anthropological record demonstrating this, there are clues baked into human physiology which seem to indicate that the human species itself is uniquely adapted to perpetrating r-word when compared amongst the other hominid species.
(Content warning concluded)
I apologize for bringing such a nasty subject up at all, but it’s useful to weigh such things when talking about the deep biological roots of sex and how it makes us think/feel. I personally believe that it’s too limiting to describe sex as an implicitly pure thing which only becomes wrong when certain impure people corrupt it. Please don’t take that as a doomer statement! I personally see it as a triumpth that, through culture, we can collectively transform an act as ambiguous as sex into an idealized and pure expression of interpersonal love. I nevertheless do still try to be mindful of the capacity for sex to exist outside of the box we’ve crafted for it, though.
I have considered it for exactly that reason. My family is healthy and happy except for that my wife completely lost her sex drive after childbirth and finds sex not just to be a chore but to be completely revolting.
I don’t want to tear my family apart just to get laid. I’m not interested in loving some other woman or having an affair, I love my wife and my daughter and I have no need for another relationship.
However it’s been years of celibacy and what I do need is sex, but without romance and with a professional who as they say “you don’t pay them for the sex, you pay them to leave afterwards”.
I dont care
So long as they treat the women properly, and said women is not being forced to work as a sex worker.
I have very mixed feelings.
On the one hand, I don’t think that there’s anything inherently immoral about sex work.
On the other hand, a large amount of sex work is not voluntary and consensual.
There are a few sites where (legitimate) sex workers can advertise. Prices vary considerably, but you’ll typically see prices starting at $400+ for “full service”. They typically have specific limits laid out, what things they do and don’t do, and usually require some kind of screening for their own safety. If you go to sites where clients can review sex workers, you can find listings for $50-$100 for full-service sex work with “new girls”, frequently Asian. These women–most of the people exchanging sex for money are women—in those listings do not screen clients, do not have pre-stated limits, frequently do not require the use of barriers, and always work for an “agency”. It is clear to me that these are not women that are doing sex work consensually. People that frequent these sex workers are complicit in their abuse. (Willing sex workers can and do work through agencies; that makes their client screening less onerous for them. But they still have clear limits, and not rock-bottom prices.)
Given how many women, esp. at the lower end of the pricing spectrum, aren’t doing sex work consensually, I would not have a good opinion of a person that chooses to use them. I could not accept someone that knew that they were trafficked and didn’t care, or chose to ignore the probability that they were doing sex work involuntarily.
I would have no opinion either way about someone that chooses to use a professional domme; that, at least, is a segment of the market that’s unlikely to involved trafficked victims.
I know you probably mean prostitutes or “escorts”, but aren’t porn actors also sex workers? I watch porn all the time, so do a lot of people. I feel sorry for the sad sacks who aren’t “allowed” to look at porn because their significant other is so goddamn insecure, the idea of their partner having their own private thoughts scares the shit out of them.
IMO the more that money is involved in anything, the less actually voluntary it is, because we need money to live and plenty of people don’t have a lot of options for making money. With sex it’s really important for everything to be actually consensual, but paying for it makes that ambiguous, they can’t really know, so I see it as creepy and unethical.
Right, if you pay to have sex with a person that’s utterly destitute, completely desperate, and has no other options, is that REALLY consensual?
There are plenty of examples of sex workers that are NOT in that situation, but there are just as many (I would guess more) examples of people that ARE in that situation.
I’d be curious to see whether sex workers increase/decrease in a region that implements a universal basic income.
Although not something I could see myself doing, I don’t judge. People can be too busy for dating, out of practice, too awkward or just wanting to cross off something off their bucket list. At the very least it ain’t my business.
Pierre Elliot Trudeau, a former prime minister of Canada, has a great quote that I like to pull out: “No place for the state in the bedrooms of of the nation.”
I think sex work should be legal and regulated to avoid trafficking and other health issues. General indecency shouldn’t be allowed, like in playgrounds, parks, or where minors may otherwise be present. Private clubs, events, etc. should be fine. Governments should otherwise be uninvolved in our sex lives. It’s none of their business.
However to answer your question directly, while I think it should be legal I also think it’s sad when men use a sex workers services. I try not to, but I can’t help but judge them. There’s only a handful of reasons where I think its a persons only option. If someone feels like they’ve run out of options, it’s just sad to me. What’s gone wrong? Where’s your confidence? Have you given up?
And for those legitimate reasons, like someone who’s physically handicapped - that’s heartbreaking for whole other reasons.
It just makes me sad.
Sad but I think it’s okay and should be allowed anyways. I feel the same way about McDonald’s and Twinkies.
Ok, that comparison gives a lot to think about. I like twinkies, now I feel dirty.
My idea of what the average sex worker client is like isn’t positive, but I wouldn’t hold it against someone I already know to be upstanding if I found out they had used one’s services.
It grosses me out, but as long as they’re not shitty to the sex worker and the sex worker isn’t being abused by a pimp, and everyone consents, it’s none of my damned business.
I mean, it just depends on why. I don’t look down on it as a whole, but if you’re in a relationship and doing it on the side, I think you’re a scumbag. That would go for women, too though.
I personally wouldn’t date a man who’s into that, I’d be too worried they’d indulge while we’re together, and that’s a hard no for me.