As little sympathy as I normally hold for any Jan 6 rioters, it is downright cruel to house her in a male prison. From what I’ve been able to suss out, she has been transitioned since at least 2004 when she did her legal name change. This is a person who has fully transitioned and been living as a woman for nearly 2 decades. Even though she is a traitorous piece of crap she deserves fair punishment under the law. To me, being a woman put into a male prison population should be considered cruel and unusual.
I’m conflicted. I completely agree with you and all of your points, and I don’t want to set a precedent like this.
But she did vote and advocate for the party that wants to keep misgendering her too…
Edit: I know folks, I agree with you all, we shouldn’t encourage this. The schadenfreude is sweet, but Ultimately it’s a bad thing. We should treat even the people who are against us with the respect we ask for
I look at it this way: we reveal ourselves by how we treat our helpless opponents.
Perfectly normal to have the emotional response of ‘serves her right.’ The better person has to stop, set the emotion aside, and ask whether the treatment fits their moral framework. If you can’t articulate why a transgendered friend, convicted of some crime, should be cross-housed, then this woman probably shouldn’t be, either.
Feeling conflicted is good - it’s your rational brain fighting with your emotional brain and winning.
We (LGBTQ) cant keep tolerating intolerance, or else we are going to end up without rights.
“We have to be the better person”, “We reveal ourselves by how we treat our helpless opponents”, etc… until we end up shot dead like that woman that put up the rainbow flag.
Fuck that.
Having her serve her sentence in the appropriate prison isn’t tolerating intolerance. She will still be convicted and be in prison for the duration of her sentence.
Nobody’s asking you to forgive her for what she’s done, we’re just saying that when your enemies are being raped and tortured, perhaps it would be good for you to say “hmm, can we achieve justice without all the rape and torture maybe?”
- Hot Saucerman ( @dingus@lemmy.ml ) English13•9 months ago
Truth. As much as I’d like to see these people have some epiphany moment of realizing how wrong they were to back people who would turn on them, they won’t. They deserve the better world we want for them, even if they are too much of a cantankerous bastard to ever be thankful for it.
We need a better society that snuffs out such hateful movements before they capture vulnerable people. Because that is what these type of groups (read: cults) operate on, finding vulnerable, lonely people who need to feel like they are part of a group and need to feel like they have a purpose. They offer those things to the lost and broken, even when they know they will turn their own knives back on those they recruit, when the time comes. As we saw with COVID, even facing death won’t make them learn they backed the wrong horse, with many of them saying COVID was a hoax until their own rasping, COVID-infected dying breath.
As cathartic letting those who get sucked into these cults suffer the punishment of their own hubris feels, they will learn nothing from it. Better to create a better world around their crappy selves.
I have no sympathy for people that are electing people that want to take rights away from LGBTQ. I have had enough. Wish you all thought the same. Maybe when you are shot dead for having a rainbow flag in your door you will think the same.
No one’s asking you to have sympathy. You’re being asked to ignore that base part of our monkey brains that delights in hurting the people we feel deserve it for its own sake when we’re talking about how to design fair and equitable systems of justice.
- Hot Saucerman ( @dingus@lemmy.ml ) English3•9 months ago
I have no sympathy for them either, but this isn’t a genetics or upbringing thing, new broken people and new manipulative people will always be with us. There is no way to sever them from society other than resorting to the same authoritarian tactics that they use (such as murder), so it is much better to create a better society that makes their complaints about it seem as loony as they actually are. As long as there are broken people to prey on, there will be new manipulators who follow the script. For example, Donald Trump isn’t actually smart enough to understand he’s playing the fascist playbook, he knows it as the mob boss playbook combined with a life in which he has faced no punishment, so it stands to reason he really believes he deserves no punishment for anything he has done. He knows he did them, and just thinks they don’t count as criminal acts because he did them, and he is special. A lot of his choices have more to do with his own narcissism than they have to do with genuine fascism, they just end up appearing the same. His fascist followers and enablers, on the other hand…
We can not have sympathy for them while also advocating for better prison conditions in which to lock them up. They still did wrong, they violated their own community, no less, but us resorting to their tactics means we’ve lost the plot, because removing our enemies from society will not suddenly make society better (or stop new people from doing the same things). We need to minimize the damage they can do, absolutely, but that can and should be done without resorting to outright removal from society. Rehabilitation may be impossible, but it should still be the goal.
Tolerating intolerance would be accepting that transgender people get put in the wrong prison.
It’s literally tolerating intolerance.
Doing it because the person in question happens to be a piece of shit, doesn’t make it any less tolerating of intolerance or somehow cancels it out.
When her killer walks free, you can riot. I’m not asking for tolerance of intolerance; I’m asking you to treat humans like humans or to justify housing Chelsea Manning or Reality Winner in a men’s prison.
Imprisoning people in the correct facility is not “tolerating intolerance”, so I’m genuinely very confused how you think that’s relevant.
we can have some sympathy. but at the same time im not gonna lose any sleep over this. what did this person think would happen to lgbtq+ people if trumps coup succeeded? republicans have shown for a long time who they are towards the lgbtq+ community. they’ve been specifically targeting transgender people since, at the latest, 2016 with all the bathroom crap.
should she be in a womens prison, yes. but when you side with those that would put other transgender people in the wrong prison its hard to have much sympathy or empathy. its better to go high when they go low, sometimes you just need to kick them in the mouth when they go low. and this person is currently getting kicked in the mouth.
It doesn’t require any sympathy or empathy, nor does it require any level of siding with her.
Either one believes that trans people should be treated equally before the law, or one does not. Ditto every other category of person. It is possible to have prisons which contain prisoners without exposing them to actual harm, and this should be true in every prison for every prisoner, no matter how heinous their actions.
So though women’s prisons in the US are hardly free from both sexual and transphobic violence, nor men’s prisons safe environments for male prisoners, sending a woman to a men’s prison automatically makes her sentence far more onerous than that of her fellow insurrectionists found guilty of a similar level of behaviour but who are sent to prisons which match their gender. Remember; all of them are at least as supportive as she is of a party which endangers trans people.
should she be in a women’s prison, yes.
Honestly, how I feel about it is this: I am a woman. No matter what, I am a woman. My gender identity isn’t something that can just be taken away, even if I do something awful. She’s absolutely a massive piece of shit. But she is still a woman, and should be treated like one.
What she voted for is completely independent of what society should be doing. The whole point is that her worldview is fucked and we do not want that worldview informing policy. So celebrating her getting her comeuppance is really just the same revenge fantasy that regressives push in lieu of actual policy.
She’s very likely going to be sexually assaulted and scarred for life, and I personally feel like this is unacceptable, even if it’s a leopard-eating-face moment.
Im not going to lose my sleep for something happening to someone that is electing people that want to take LGBTQ rights away. I agree that she should be in a women’s prision. I am in no way celebrating what’s happening to her, but she elected her own destiny.
Personally the way I see it is people like that don’t get to dictate our standards.
I’m against rape and murder. I’m not going to murder murderers, or rape rapists, or deny human rights to human rights deniers. I don’t go round mutilating people who self harm either.
Her misguided beliefs are not relevant to our treatment of her human rights.
And agreeing with her would be a mistake.
- argv_minus_one ( @argv_minus_one@beehaw.org ) 15•9 months ago
There is unfortunately nothing unusual about prisoners being raped. That’s a problem bigger than just Watkins, and the vast majority of America seems to be completely okay with it. Makes me sick.
It’s almost a guarantee that she is going to be raped multiple times in a men’s prison. And while you could say that she is supporting the people who make this happen, leopards eating faces and all that, and therefore, had it coming… no one deserves this. Being principled means standing for your enemies when it’s necessary, even if you know they wouldn’t do the same for you.
Does she deserves prison? I mean… I guess, if we think prison is good, then yes? But that’s a whole other debate. But I’m seeing it like this: On one hand: It’s a Trump supporter dipshit who stormed the fucking capitol and is getting what’s coming to them, fuck them. But on the other hand: It’s a trans woman being thrown in a men’s prison and is therefore going to be raped multiple times and/or be forced to be stuck in solitary the whole time. And that is not ok, at all.
It’s also not okay to attempt treason (and be bad at it, too.) She will be in protective solitary confinement and and solitary is where she belongs.
I realize solitary is considered torture, but not too long ago we would just straight up execute treasoners. This is an improvement.
I don’t care. It doesn’t make it OK.
Beside, I hate the idea of a citizen committing “treason”. I have absolutely no loyalty whatsoever to my country, I just happen to be born there, I didn’t chose it, I didn’t signed up for it.
By definition only citizens can commit treason? I don’t have any loyalty either (I’m an anarchist) but if I pick up arms against my country I know what to expect. It might involve a lot of getting shot.
In this case sexual assault is almost a guarantee. If for no other reason at all, that one should be enough to warrant her being housed in a women’s prison.
I love beehaw. The leftists here are shining examples of how we as a society should behave. We universally distain what she stands for and what she has done, but pretty much all of us advocate for her humane treatment. I am so thankful that I signed up for this instance instead of one of the others.
- argv_minus_one ( @argv_minus_one@beehaw.org ) 24•9 months ago
We’re not going to get our wish either way, unfortunately. I very seriously doubt that rape is only commonplace in men’s prisons. Our prisons appear to be specifically designed to encourage and maximize prisoners raping each other, because everyone on the outside considers that part of the punishment (“don’t drop the soap”).
Your comment made me curious, so I looked it up and found a 2006 study that says you are absolutely correct, inmate-on-inmate sexual violence is almost 4 times higher in women’s prisons: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2438589/ I seriously did not expect that.
- argv_minus_one ( @argv_minus_one@beehaw.org ) 8•9 months ago
Wow. I expected it to be lower but still prevalent. Definitely didn’t expect it to be four times higher.
I am sure sexual assault does not happen man on man in prison… lol
Sexual assault in prison is implied as part of the punishment and society does not care.
You aren’t the first person who has that idea. Everybody is aware of that risk. That is why she is almost certainly going to be protective solitary confinement the whole time.
The cognitive dissonance of a trans trump supporter blows my mind.
She is a very foolish and hateful person, and to me, very hateful people are usually deeply insecure and fearful individuals. This is why (imo) they are so receptive to cult-like thinking and conspiracy theories. She has done real damage to herself and others by letting her fearful emotions dictate her behavior. Now she’s seeing the results of that foolishness, and I think she’s realized, at least somewhat, that she fucked up.
Sure, too little too late is real easy to say here (and that was my knee-jerk reaction too) but we’ve got to keep the door open for the folks who are actually willing, for however briefly, to break away from the cult of hate mindset and ask for help. Like think about watching a cult documentary where you see folks being preyed on and recruited in because of their financial precarity or lack of sustainable support networks. You want those people to escape. If they do heinous shit while in the cult, you want them to experience consequences, but you also want them to escape.
This alt-right shit is just like that, in a way. And we need to support people like this who are trying to escape, even if they fucked up royally during their time with the cult. We don’t have to forgive them for their fuck ups, but we do need to leave the door open and show them it doesn’t need to be like this. I hate to say it but we need to educate. And yes I’m over having to educate every fucking day of my life but we’ve got to do it, especially considering states are ripping away any semblance of a balanced, empathetic education right now. A whole generation is being set up to fail and cause harm. We’ve got to fight back.
I embrace her - not her actions, but her worth as a human being with the capacity and even, it seems, willingness to change. What she did was despicable but she’s apologized; she may be lying but I can’t know that, so I have to accept her remorse at face value and hope that she follows through.
But the cult is very insidious. If she doesn’t receive support now, she’ll fall back into that mindset, I guarantee it. Now is the time to be gracious and extend her a hand that, based on her actions, maybe she doesn’t deserve. But we need to do it anyway.
- Valmond ( @Valmond@lemmy.mindoki.com ) 7•9 months ago
She has 8 years to figure that out.
Being LGBT and support this craziness? Maybe she’ll need even more time to get it right…
She won’t figure shit out in a mens prison. It will be 8 years of torture and trauma.
- Valmond ( @Valmond@lemmy.mindoki.com ) 3•9 months ago
Mens prison, women’s prison, it seems above all be a USA prison.
Sure, but she will face abuse above and beyond that experienced by most other inmates.
- Valmond ( @Valmond@lemmy.mindoki.com ) 1•9 months ago
What kind of sentence do you think that person should have gotten?
A sentence in a prison that wouldn’t force her to experience abuse and sexual assault because she’s trans
- Valmond ( @Valmond@lemmy.mindoki.com ) 1•9 months ago
What sentence do you think that person should have gotten?
One where the only protection may come from a white nationalist gang willing to take her if she detransitions. She won’t hear less extremist rhetoric in there. That isn’t what US prisons are for.
I’m conflicted about how to react to this. Sticking strictly to reason and compassion, obviously she’s a woman and belongs in a women’s prison. Yet it would be a lie to say a part of me doesn’t have that visceral, emotional “did she really think she was so special that the leopards wouldn’t eat her face even though they’ve been baying for years about all the faces they want to eat?”
I think it’s okay to think she’s an awful, horrible, stupid human being, but still believe that she has the right to be treated humanely.
expired
Agreed. I’ve been thinking about this overnight, and since it seems unlikely that Watkins’ right-wing allies will do anything to help her, maybe if people on the left fight for her, it’ll give her an opportunity to grow.
Also, yes! There’s a solid argument that prisons should only be used for individuals that are too dangerous to be roaming society, and only then until they’ve been rehabilitated, where possible. I don’t think prison sentences for non-violent crime serve any real purpose - even for the “punishment” element of dealing with crime, it would be better for society if non-violent criminals did volunteer work in the community or something similarly constructive/reparative, something that helps forge connections with others rather than cutting them off.
Definitely agreed that trans people should have their own wings. That is the case in some places. In the UK prisons have separate wings for vulnerable inmates, and that’s where trans prisoners generally end up. It’s part of why all the recent fuss about a trans woman with a history of sexual violence being housed in a women’s prison was a bit of an overreaction: she was kept in a segregated wing and never actually had any contact with other prisoners. That said, there are questions about whether she was genuinely trans, because she was a rapist who started transitioning after being convicted - I do believe that when someone with a history of sexual assault transitions in prison, it’s a reasonable to ask a lot of questions. But whether she was being honest or not, she was never in a position to actually hurt anyone, and moving her back to a male prison would also require she be segregated from the general population.
expired
Trying to remain sympathetic, but this is exactly what the side she was supporting would’ve wanted to happen to her. Or worse. Either way, absolute yikes…
Gender identity isn’t something you stop respecting because of a bad take, no matter how bad. She should go to a women’s prison for a long time. But, unless there are people willing to defend a refusal to accept someone’s gender and rape as a de facto punishment for a crime, this is indefensible. It’s extra (and barbaric) punishment because she’s trans. That’s wrong. Period.
Definitely good points made here and I agree, as much as this is a lamf moment, it is right on so many levels to advocate for her humane treatment.
The US prison system can choke on a bunch of dicks. I would not wish that on the worst shit heads because i simply do NOT enjoy rape. Maybe people should think really hard about why they think rape is funny when it happens to bad people. What a wicked and disgustingbsense of justice.
not enjoying rape is a pretty hot take, my guy
cw: sexual violence
Not only do the more violent incarcerated people rape incarcerated trans people, the fucking prison guards actually “give them over” to said violent prisoners, by knowingly assigning them to a cell together to placate the violent one.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_people_in_prison#V-coding
Happens to cis men as well, if you are perceived as effeminate or known to be gay. Donny the Punk (Stephen Donaldson) was a prison reform activist who brought a lot of attention to sexual assault in male prisons.
His Wikipedia page is a tough read, but he is basically one of the first people to organize around this and bring the issue to American consciousness.
Defund the police was a watered down psyop. Abolish prisons and police.
Stop posting videos from this guy hes literally a human trafficker with a fake accent, hes 100% a federal agent
Do you have any sources for this?
No, he doesn’t. Regarding human trafficking, he helped migrants get into the us at one point and got caught. He has addressed his arrest in a couple of videos.
He was caught trafficking eastern european women into the US… idk if you know anything about human trafficking but stealing peoples paperwork and forcing them to work it off is akin to slavery
Do you have any proof?
https://www.justice.gov/archive/opa/pr/2008/February/08_crm_145.html
This is all I could find. You asserted that he “stealing peoples paperwork and forcing them to work it off is akin to slavery”. That isn’t collaborated anywhere that I know of. From everything I can tell is that he served his time, paid his dues and now is a very good advocate for social justice. I’ll take it.
Additionally, I’m assuming this is the correct guy. I don’t know that it is, but I’m assuming so for the sake of simplicity.
That said, his statements stand and fall on their own merit. Who says them doesn’t make much of a difference. David Duke could have said that Black people are systematically oppressed in america and he would be 100% correct even though he’s a monster.
This reddit thread has some more info and the comments are enlightening: https://www.reddit.com/r/BeauOfTheFifthColumn/comments/111qse9/beau_of_the_fifth_column_human_trafficking_slaver/
https://youtu.be/r0MrQi29xl8 (skip to 6:40)
His full name is justin eric king. You can search for the documents on google, but while reading the docs ask yourself how someone gets out of jail after 3 years and gets to keep their money for trafficking eastern european women into the US.