When I first joined this community I saw it as a respite from reddit where I was free to chill with people without being constantly expected to debate or defend arguments or anything. Just a forum where people are nice.
Lately though it seems every active comment section is filled to the brim with, to be frank, obnoxious people who want nothing more than to fight with you about everything you say. I think they’re known as “debate bros.”
I’m not saying debate shouldn’t be happening but to be honest it’s disappointing seeing it be the only thing occurring. I’ve tried contributing in other fashions but have been met multiple times with people trying to start arguments with me about things or get me to defend “points” that I didn’t make. This in particular has been very annoying. I’ve reported every instance of this due to it not contributing but I feel as if that’s not helping.
I like talking to people I disagree with. I like conversing with differing opinions. But I feel alone in that this isn’t the only thing I want to do on a forum.
Again, I’m not trying to definitively say we shouldn’t debate at all, but just pointing out how prevalent it seems to be. Id like to just converse with people without being expected to make and defend points. I feel like that’s a major thing we should’ve left on Reddit.
If people want to debate then they can do that. I just dislike that it appears to become the base-level expectation for the instance.
I’ve been on the internet long enough to know that any argument that goes on for long enough is going to get uncivil. You’re also very unlikely to convince someone who feel threatened by your point.
So I’ve got a soft ‘respond once’ policy. if someone replies to one of my comments, I respond once to clarify my position and address anything important. If I have failed to make my point by then, then my writing ability will continue to be insufficient in
n > 2comments, and I am adult enough to let them have the last word.
Yeah this how I operate now. It’s not worth my time to argue with people. I don’t even post a second response a lot of the time, especially when the interjection is obnoxious.
Ohhh, this is a good policy. I’m taking this!
Great policy, thanks for sharing!
I’ve noticed this everywhere on Lemmy - I don’t think this is a Beehaw exclusive. My guess is that as Lemmy grows, more and more people are lurking and reading every post/comment you make. Most people will pass by without a debate, but if 1000 people read your post all it takes is one person to decide they want to start an argument.
Absence of disable inbox setting for comments or threads like on Reddit is also a contributor I think, since if you are the type to have to defend your comment then it leads to a back and forth that can go longer than on reddit since you will be made aware of the reply with no ability to turn it off for either party.
- willya ( @willya@lemmyf.uk ) English13•10 months ago
A block will turn it off.
I love your mindset
I’ve noticed this everywhere on Lemmy
Same here. And it’s been wave after wave of negativity of outside events flocking people. June Reddit API change, then Zuck @ Threads hate, Twitter to X shockwaves, and now Trump back on Twitter. It hasn’t been people seeking out positive as much as it’s been world wide web of anger.
Nuh-uh.
Yes. Lemmy/kbin/etc as well. I was just thinking to myself idk why I’m even on here. It feels like every comment I make, I end up having to defend myself, no matter how innocuous the comment.
I said it would be funny if the next elder scrolls games smashed expectations and was good, in an ironic kind of funny. I mentioned baldurs gate 3 due to it being also incredibly well received and was immediately met with a person who wanted to argue that the two games aren’t comparable.
I agree with them but I wasn’t even trying to make that argument in the first place. Just mentioned BG3 because it released like two weeks ago. Was very disappointing to see such a misrepresentation of what I said.
No, it hasn’t.
Yes, it has.
You’re wrong.
I think you’re both wrong.
I think I am always right!
I’m humble enough to know I’m not always right, but in this instance I can most definitely assure you that you are wrong.
I think the honey moon period is over for all instances and communities when people were motivated to comment with the goal of trying to encourage user growth by being nicer than they usually are.
Now that people are settling in they are more comfortable using the fediverse like they’ve done on social media. Which does change the type of posts and comments that now come out.
So arguments are expected for even trivial topics like games. It’s good or bad thing depending on the viewpoint, but was expected outcome since motivations for posting was much different in the earlier days.
I think that it wasn’t a honey moon period, but more so people are getting settled in and attempting to bring in toxicity because some people just crave toxicity for no logical reason…
While I’m not a psychologist, I read far too much crap online, so take this as a layman’s view.
There’s been a lot of research around the dopamine feedback loop around social media, as well as the fact that arguing and “winning” is a major dopamine hit, so I wouldn’t be the least bit shocked that a lot of the more toxic people are literally addicted to the dopamine that social networks give you that they’re arguing and posting for no other reason than their next hit.
Oh no, they quite literally are. You pretty much nailed the root of it, and also brought up a good point as to why for profit social media tends to become so harmful. Engagement is prioritized, and “winning” and arguing with people drives engagement due to the dopamine hit. That’s why you will constantly see rage bait promoted across social media. It makes money.
I guess the real question, ultimately, is how do you deprogram the worst elements of this cohort so that they can like… respond and converse like a normal human without having to argue every single thing and go on and on and on until they “win”? (Which, IMO, means the other person has just gotten tired of dealing with them more than anything else.)
I will happily admit I have absolutely no idea, and will also admit that I have on more than one occasion been That Guy Posting but I really really try to not let myself be.
I think it’s a matter of being mindful of it, creating an environment where it isn’t acceptable, as well as making sure that the algorithms that tend to generate the most toxicity don’t get added in.
To add on I think it is also a thing of social norms. So if a plurality in a post starts being argumentative then it can become the default way others talk in other parts of the post.
So it sort of is an “Embody the change you want to see” thing.
Absolutely. I am not perfect whatsoever, no one is but I try my best personally to make lemmy a nice place and as a community it’s our collective responsibility to at the very least try
That’s one of the reasons I block every community/magazine focused on politics, no matter the country they’re related on. Although European politics tend to be more civil than US politics. But I’m tired of too much polarization and lack of civil discourse. Tankies don’t help either, and luckily for us, exploding-heads is leaving Lemmy.
I read an interesting thread about “I hate politics” being an inherently anti-minority/anti-oppressed stance. Because to the majority, “politics” is often anything related to race/gender/social-status/etc. so it’s a disservice to those causes to ignore them.
And while I belong to a couple of minority/oppressed groups, I also get the idea of wanting to not be constantly inundated with those debates.
I’ve got no answers other than it’s complicated and something worth thinking about.
It’s well-docmented in Aotearoa, Australia, and the UK that low turnout favours the right so some centre-right parties - advised by Crosby Textor - try to create divisive issues because it puts voters off politics and voting altogether.
But, I think there’s often a big difference between engaging politically in your community and society, and debating strangers on social media.
Like @Ignacio@beehaw.org, I block things called “politics” on the lemmy and kbin sites because they are mostly catch-alls for well rehearsed/rehashed arguments relevant to America.
I think it’s possible for us to stand in solidarity with Americans without resorting to that, and in other countries their causes tend to come up in social media news so I try to take real world actions based on that, for example writing to our minister of foreign affairs to ask that NZ takes a particular stance or action.
Someone else where tried to tell me that I was “privileged” for not wanting to discuss politics - I told them that if they knew me (which isn’t that hard to do, I’m pretty transparent on the internet…) then the idea of calling me “privileged” is an absolute joke.
There’s definitely a huge difference between “I don’t want to discuss politics [with people who are most likely not going to discuss it in good faith with you and will only scream at you]” versus “I don’t want to ever be involved or know about politics whatsoever”. I don’t even discuss politics with friends because the potential consequences are… bad, to say the least. If I don’t discuss it with friends, then I’m certainly not going to discuss it with people I have no connection to (for lack of a better phrase, I don’t mean that in a harsh manner of course) on the internet. I too also tend to block any political discussion from any feeds I take part in because it also, tends to not go well.
Heck, I usually don’t even go into the “why” all that often either, because of what I mentioned in my first sentence.
Politics seem more exhausting than on reddit, since there’s entire instances that exist soley for the purpose of spreading their beliefs. Which is a pro for them with instances helping to foster a stronger community, but then they seem so much more present every where too. /c/all can be flooded with the topics they want to push if there’s a mass submission. And new instances pop up if defederated with the main goal seeming to be not just a community for themselves, but evangelizing. And lemmy isn’t at a stage yet where subscribed feeds can provide enough content to avoid /c/all like back on reddit.
Connect for lemmy with keyword filtering and instance blocking has really helped though to reduce the frequency of manual community blocking. Didn’t block during the first few weeks though, which was a nice period before it became necessary to curate personal feeds.
I’ve felt that lemmy.world has. It feels much more like vintage Reddit.
Beehaw I haven’t experienced quite as much of the arguing for arguing’s sake. If someone’s arguing with me, they’re usually doing so in good faith.
This is what I think too. Lemmy.world also have a strong downvote culture, which seems to encourage them to pile on to each other.
I see tons of people across the threadiverse arguing that any community missing downvotes lacks any curation, which I find odd. Only upvotes tends to still propogate the best of what the zeitgeist to the top and inspire meaningful feedback when there’s a disagreement rather than just clicking on the “I don’t like this” button
I agree. If the downvote button really was used for sinking content like spam and trolling, that’s a point but it’s something that can be done with active moderation.
But since it’s used for disagreement, I don’t see the value.
It happens when you get more users, always. There are people who just wants to argue as some form of entertainment.
Precisely this. 100 users can come across a comment and think nothing of it, when 1000 users or more come across it, one is likely to get ticked off by some part of it and be willing to write a response.
Yes, and I’ve been using beehaw less and less because of it.
I can’t comment on beehaw specifically, but I do know I’ve seen it rise in popularity on Lemmy / The Fediverse, just as its generally prevalent on the internet itself (that’s the core of the problem, its not really a Reddit thing as much as it is an “internet” thing from what I’ve found).
Like you, I don’t mind debating something with someone when they attempt to do so in good faith - or if I post something incorrect then I’m happy to be corrected if someone isn’t rude about it. I do also try to make sure that if I post something, that I’m either sure its correct, or I provide some sort of hint that I’m not 100% sure about it.
Argument Clinic https://youtu.be/uLlv_aZjHXc?si=TPn9cjOH1UUOmIvC
Your father smelt of elderberries. :p
I’m marginally attached to beehaw so maybe I’m not the best gauge to read, but I haven’t really noticed what you describe.
Enjoy your weekend!
Unfortunately most places have “reply guys” in some capacity. I may have my own qualms with lemmy as a platform, but a lot of it is algorithmic and the lemmy devs are being mindful of making sure not to add the most toxic aspects of social media algorithms to lemmy. There’s always those people seeking out toxicity and crave an argument on every platform. With platforms like this it’s important to recognize that you curate your experience. Mute and block often. You aren’t missing out on clout, or anything really. If there’s anything that’s hindering you from having a good time here then get rid of it. There’s a lot of FOMO people have especially with browsing /all but the fediverse thrives when you curate what you want to see carefully.
It should also be noted that there’s quite a few people on reddit determined to come here and try and start shit for no reason other than they find it to be fun. There’s a pretty big post on reddit that I saw about lemmy being “too civil” and how the fact that there isn’t a controversial sorting option, it’s too boring for them to use. Some people crave conflict. Don’t satisfy their craving.
Yeah, I’ve memorized what to click to block people in lemmy, an option that I have rarely used during my 13 years in reddit.
I don’t know, my communities are fairly similar on reddit and in lemmy, but I’ve blocked more often here.
I wonder why.
In my experience this has happened most strongly with topics relating to LLMs. Ive had good discussions on the topic too, but ive also seen lots of “BOOM I just shut down your argument!!” at any mention of negative impacts LLMs may have on society.
I’m sorry but what is a LLM? A quick search didn’t do anything
Learned Language Model, a form of machine learning that people tend to call “AI”. ChatGPT is an LLM
It’s actually “Large Language Model.”
Whooooops, that’s what I get for not verifying things sitting in my brain for a long time
No worries, I wrote an article about them recently, so it was on the top of my mind.