ITT: A bunch of non-vegans complaining that content posted to a vegan community makes them uncomfortable.
Also ITT: A bunch of people who haven’t been convinced to go vegan asserting how to convince people to go vegan. Not them, but other people of course.
I know I’m going to piss off every single group with this unpopular opinion, but I view veganism/vegetarianism and religion similarly.
Both of them come with benefits and downsides. The extent of these benefits and downsides differ from person to person. There’s no “right” answer, talking about your choice is perfectly fine and I don’t really care what you do either way, but I don’t like it when you try too hard to convert me.
People that want to convert you to their religion are usually concerned about YOU (saving your soul, etc.), so it’s reasonable that it’s YOUR choice to decline. The only concern is about your own well being.
People that want to convert you to veganism, on the other hand, are only concerned about the animals you’re exploiting - it has nothing to do with you personally. Your choice to decline means you’re condemning hundreds of animals to die every year for the rest of your life. This is a hard pill to swallow for animal sympathizers, so you must understand why arguments by vegans tend to be quite passionate.
But the two really aren’t similar, other than the fact that they both make you uncomfortable.
I’m completely on your side, but I disagree that declining veganism condemns hundreds of animals to die. If someone goes vegan, does that mean that those animals will then live?
Those animals wouldn’t be born. It’s supply and demand. The less demand there is for meat, the cheaper it gets, and the less incentive there will be to breed more of them. The goal is to reduce suffering as much as possible, and that can only happen if people stop paying for it.
I get the theoretical point, but I highly doubt that if one person goes vegan, it will cause the meat industry to produce 100 less cows. It will just create slightly more waste.
Don’t get me wrong, more people absolutely should go vegan, I just never liked the view of “you single person can change something”, because that’s just false. It should be marketed more as being part of a bigger group that can create change.
Do you also not vote, because one single vote doesn’t change the outcome?
And that’s besides the point anyways. Me not murdering humans also doesn’t stop them from getting murdered worldwide, but that doesn’t mean I can just walk around and kill people, the same way you have no justification to torture and murder non-human animals, just because they will keep getting killed by others.
Well, you did not get my point at all… Please read it again. Even with voting, saying “I changed the election with my vote” is bullshit. But voting and veganism are important, precisely because it is a group. But targeting individuals is just useless. Because your relative won’t change the world. Many relatives may, but the point is that one single person won’t change shit with a behavioral change.
This is rationalization. You are experiencing cognitive dissonance and trying to rationalize a narrative that relieves it.
What do you mean with that?
What are your reasons for comparing veganism to religion? Aside from having a strong opinion I see no real similarities. To me it feels like non vegans want this comparison to be valid to be able to make it about personal choice when it really is about respecting others.
Also the “there is no right answer” argument is always in favor of the status quo which is factory farming animals. Is that really something you want to preserve?
Do you hold any strong ethical beliefs at all? Would you also say they are religious? Would you also say that it is up to each individual to decide what is right for them and we should respect that and not push too hard?
For the second group, I always like to ask "Why should I use your argument to convince people when it didn’t convince you?"
I’ve seen the video i have worked on farms it doesnt bother me terribly
The videos made me want stricter regulation, it didn’t make me want to go vegan or cut down on meat.
But there are other reasons to be a little more conservative with meat in my diet.
I think it’s important to be aware of the process of everything we consume, that way we can influence the impact our habits have.
I’m pretty sure the vast majority of adult meat eaters have seen multiple videos and still continue to eat meat. Very few have actionable ability to directly stop the suffering so they then stop caring. One person cutting down on red meat will never be enough until there’s enough lab grown meat and/or delicious FakeMeat alternatives to satiate western society at large. We still a long ways away from that.
Until then, vote for people who want to cut down on brutal industrial practices.
One person cutting down on red meat will never be enough
You could use that argument to invalidate voting or any boycott. “Why should I vote? My one vote won’t change anything.” The truth is, you aren’t one person. There are many vegans.
But even one person can do quite a bit. I’ve influenced my friends to eat less meat. When we go out to eat, if they want to include me, we’ll go to s vegan-friendly restaurant.
You could use that argument to invalidate voting or any boycott
The difference being that there will never be enough vegans to change large-AG practices until the reasons I’ve stated above. There is a non-zero hit to their bottom line, sure, but Veganism will never be mainstream until healthy and tasty alternatives to meat is viable, tasty, and cheap.
The perpetual shift to healthier lifestyles through lab grown and alternative meats are an inevitability for any prospering/utopian civilization. The technology and culture to get there requires A LOT though.
The world and it’s inhabitants can get fucked because technology will save us? I could think robots are inevitably going to replace slaves but that does not justify me keeping a slave in the present.
I’ve seen those videos, a lot of them. I still choose to eat meat. I totally disagree with the implication that anyone who eats meat is being willfully ignorant of evidence that would convert them.
I think it’s worse to admit that you’re fine with inflicting that kind of pain on animals and still enjoy the end result. There’s a reason they tell parents to be wary of kids who enjoy torture. You’re just a step below that.
Holy shit, you are so delusional and full of yourself. You sound like prepubescent teenagers on Xbox Live that call people “pathetic” every chance they get. 💀💀 Get over yourself.
When in a series there is a serial killer it’s always the person who enjoyed to torture animals as kid. Take a guess why.
Because people who enjoy torture enjoy torture?
If you’re trying to make a comparison, it makes no sense at all.
Media likes to play with stereotypes and deliver a story which seems to make sense. It’s not a field study on human psychology.
So then why do you eat meat? Are you just a selfish narcissist who thinks their pleasure is more important than anything else? Or what is it?
Because scientific evidence hates you.
Are you just a selfish narcissist who thinks their pleasure is more important than anything else?
I’ve been a vegan for almost a decade, and I’ve finally started to see how self-entitled carnists are. How I used to be. I thought that I was entitled to the bodies of other living, sentient beings.
Holier than thou.
Maybe you should consider the possibility that some people in some aspects of life really are holier than thou and you could learn from them. Imagine someone pointing out to a serial killer how not killing is more moral and the killer answers with “Holier than thou.”. Would this be a good comeback?
This is not an equivalent situation, being vegan or vegetarian does not make you legitimately “holier than thou”. It is not a virtuous enough decision to be “holier” than the average person, and eating meat is not a bad enough action to be comparable to being a serial killer.
Just because it is not comparable to a serial killer does not mean that it’s not bad enough to warrant a holier label. How do you justify killing and torturing an animal just for taste pleasure?
I dont kill or torture animals, I support an industry that does by buying the products they create. That is not bad enough of an action for you to be holier.
Of course I’m not a ‘selfish narcissicist who thinks their pleasure is more important than anything else’, that’s total hyperbole (and the fact you exaggerated the fuck out of something doesn’t make anyone think you’re more intelligent or your point holds more weight).
I will answer you, but my reasoning really doesn’t matter. For me its a combination of the lack of impact I as an individual consumer can have on that industry, and the negative affects veganism can take on your nutrition.
Also, there is ZERO scientific evidence that humans should not eat meat. Unless you’re trying to say those videos are “scientific evidence” that I should be vegan, in which case I think you have psychosis.
If every one went vegan like vegans do, then there absolutely wouldn’t be a lack of impact, what a bizzare thing to suggest?
If everyone acts like you and goes “ah well, I can’t change anything”, that flawed “logic” can be used to commit any number of atrocities.
I do like that “scientific evidence” argument though. Like, “sorry judge there’s no scientific paper decrying killing people with a car so I did it”. You don’t need a scientist to tell you to do an objectively good thing - in this case stopping the unnecessary culling of sentient life for your tastebuds.
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I understand that fully, trust me, but I only control my own actions. I do not care enough about the issues surrounding meat production to take that action knowing I will not enact any change. If I cared enough about those issues, I wouldn’t care if anyone else followed. (As you have).
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That logic only applies on an individual basis, and has to be weighed against how much you care about something.
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I feel you have my point confused, you think I said: “There is ZERO scientific evidence that humans abstaining from eating meat would have a positive impact on our world.”
I said: “There is ZERO scientific evidence humans should not eat meat.”
What do you mean you’ll have no impact?? You realised for every piece of meat you don’t eat, that’s less demand for an animal to be killed right? Not to mention the significant reduction in carbon emissions. That’s not including the change you impart on others. I was convinced to go vegan, and I’ve convinced others as well.
Your first point is just straight out wrong. Do you vote? Or is the fact your vote doesn’t single handedly decide the election enough to dissuade? Your logic could be used by a murderer to go “well, there’s murder in the world that I can’t stop, so I might as well keep murdering!”. Very very broken logic.
I agree with you the only argument against veganism is “I don’t care”. But then you must accept you are a person who knowingly commits bas deeds, deeds you could easily stop today, but choose not to out of greed.
And your third point is just weird? If you accept that scientific discourse agreed abstaining from meat has a worldly positive impact, isn’t that enough? Or is the scientifically supported increase in life expectancy associated with veganism not enough?
I choose not to because I do not care enough to make that decision when it will have no impact. Even if my vote has no impact, I care much more about who gets elected.
I care much more about whether humans should dietarily eat meat than whether abstaining from eating it has monetary or carbon benefits.
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I can totally see the individual impact argument. Still personally I think if everyone thinks this way, nothing’s gonna change. On the other hand if a sufficient amount of people tries it’s gonna change everything. We just need to be enough individuals to be a movement.
Then again “ZERO scientific evidence”: yeah just fuck yourself. https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/jul/20/vegan-diet-cuts-environmental-damage-climate-heating-emissions-study There are several studies showing that we could easily tackle the global hunger crisis, which will only worsen in the next years by going vegan. https://ourworldindata.org/land-use-diets And that’s just one example of “scientific evidence that humans should not eat meat.”
Neither of those links show any evidence as to why humans should not eat meat. They show evidence as to why humans eating meat could assist in dealing with the effects of climate change, but that is not the same claim.
Scientific evidence is unbiased, you hate them.
I feel like that sign is a bit alienating, which is unfortunate because it perpetuates the idea that vegans are holier than thou. As a person that (i think) understands the basic reasoning behind veganism (intentional non-participation in animal exploitation and cruelty?) i wish that more people would consider it. Hey, maybe that should be a sign
People have been saying that for decades. It doesn’t work. I never understood the concept of “protests shouldn’t make me feel uncomfortable or inconvenience me.” That kind of undercuts the purpose of a protest and trying to spread a message. If you make it so it’s easy to ignore, it doesn’t work. Without fail there’s always the “ugh, someone who tries to make me feel bad about torturing and killing animals is simply not going to convince me to do otherwise.” It’s such a shitty excuse.
Yeah, I can see how being an unrepentant dildo is really winning people over to the cause!
Are you aware of the backfire effect? https://effectiviology.com/backfire-effect-facts-dont-change-minds/
I’m generally not confrontational and honestly usually tell people to try their best, but I get tired of people coming to a vegan community and being assholes.
This is something that I often think about in connection with veganism.
I can sit down and watch a video about how vegetables are produced. It might be boring, but I could watch it.
Most carnists, on the other hand, can’t sit and watch how hamburger, sausage, cheese, etc. is produced. For them to enjoy that food, they have to ignore all the suffering behind it.
I don’t think many people are bothered by cheese making videos, the basic gist is dumping enzymes into milk to separate the water from the fat, then the fatty components are sometimes aged to develop flavor. The enzymes are produced by bacteria these days, so it’s not like it involves a gory butchering step.
I’m talking about forcibly impregnating (i.e. raping) the cow, which is required to keep her pregnant so that she keeps producing milk. And then taking her calf away from her when they’re born.
Or maybe getting people uncomfortable and forced to think about it, and actively face the dissonance is effective. Maybe they get mad and confrontational, but then you have to ask why.
Why are you doing something whose moral implications are making you uncomfortable?
Same thing goes for shit like buying stuff made by people in horrible working conditions. Maybe we shouldn’t feel as if we are entitled to being comfortable all the time, especially when we do so at the expense of others. What if it was you in the place of the worker or animal? Are you okay with continuing on like this?
And it makes people uncomfortable because it makes them see themselves as a bad person. But hey, maybe you should feel uncomfortable if you are doing something you yourself consider bad.
Isn’t “I’m for the intentional non-participation in animal exploitation and cruelty” just a consequence of “I saw the videos you refuse to watch”, hence similarly alienating and holier than thou?
Maybe even more so. “I can’t continue because I saw a video” could be an unreflected emotional statement, whereas yours sounds like a moral argument.
To be fair, I feel like there’s a lot of videos that would traumatize you if you watched them, not just ones related to meat. Sure there’s traumatizing videos you should watch, but actively seeking that stuff out seems like no way to live.
Ok, but it’s about something people actively and blindly participate and fund. Not just folks watching traumatizing videos for fun.
Everyone is like “Yeah I know it’s bad.” But they still actively refuse to acknowledge just how bad it really is.
If I was actively funding the abhorrent things in those videos, you’d be well within your right to tell me to stop, or at the very least insist I watch them.
I think we shoulf reduce meat production and make laws so millions of animals dont het abused every day and i aldo saw the videos but i just like meat so i dont think that everyone becoming a vegan would be a good solution. I of course 100% support if someone makes the decision themself. If a meat substitute is found that tastes like meat and solves meats flaws then i would happily switch.
I’d be happy if people would just proofread before submitting.
This is lemmy not a thesis paper lmao
Still prefer not to suffer a stroke from reading a comment.
A friend told me that she asked her father to watch a vid for her bday. He agreed and converted after seeing it. For this reason, I cowardly avoid seeking out such material (I love meat). I know that I should switch. I’m just selfish enough not to.
You should really just stop lying to yourself and have a look at what it really is you “love”.
Are you implying anyone who eats meat loves animal cruelty?
No, we just like eating meat. It’s really not that deep
No, I don’t. I think most people are not enjoying cruelty at all. I’m implying that they’re just pretending they were aware of the cruelty they are actually responsible for. While in reality they have no idea.
Edit: Sorry, I thought you were the original commentor. No idea what point of view you have here.
The comments responding to you are pretty unnecessarily hostile, but I personally get where you’re coming from. I personally think it’s best to watch the thing so that you can be best informed, even if it’s hard to do. Not even because of veganism being ethical, but because the fear of the unknown is a lot scarier than any documentary could be, IMO. Information is power, and having information (even distressing information) is empowerment.
Also, I loved meat too, but when I went vegan, I never really missed it. I was pretty worried about missing certain foods (one was sushi), but that never really happened to me.
Dude, i was there.
Weirdest thing to me about this comments section is that I realised I might like Hexbears
Locking this thread as it lost any usefulness and it’s getting popular among edgelord kids
What happens If you later see a video of a someone eating a hamburger?
All videos are 100% factual, but some offer “alternative facts.” /s
Eh I can’t give up cheese
But killing cows does suck, they’re cool. Like big cowy dogs.
I’m drunk, I apologize.
But also life is just random coincidence and we’re probably the only place it exists and it seems like everything is out to get everything else already. Fuckers can’t eat me, I’ll eat them. I’m coming for you, flesh eating bacteria. I have teeth. They’re real creepy. Like bones in my face made to chew things. FACE BONES.