I did report it. The problem is many of these arguments come clothed in the fabric of politeness. Similar to how white nationalists have tried to persuade me by calling me “brother” and speaking kindly, it might not be immediately apparent to someone why these arguments are harmful. After all, the person is being “polite,” and the person who responds appropriately often seems like the unhinged one.

It’s by design.

Did it…? Peace talks definitely didn’t, but if “that ^” had been enough, there wouldn’t’ve been proud “ex-nazis” 30 years later, or any modern neo-nazis.

I don’t think we’ve found an effective way yet.

Thank you. I got shit on just yesterday for being bisexual.

I saw H&M refer to me (non-binary) as divided. I honestly don’t mind the term. Feels oddly right.

Inaction against intolerance is a form of action, is it not? “Bee kind” is not just a call to not be mean, it’s a call to act in kindness.

I believe the poster is probably right in that it stirs more toward fostering acceptance rather than simply ignoring hate.

It’s not compelled speech, per se—Beehaw users need to have an active role in order to make it the kind of place people want to bee.

I wouldn’t take a broad appeal for decency as a personal attack against you.

I’d like to remind you that you don’t get to redefine words.

Yeah I don’t think that’s what happened and definitely didn’t read it that way in the post.

This is how we take the conversation back. Good on ya!

your follow up explanation doesn’t really go into detail about the sentiment behind this statement and reads completely off topic

Are you misinterpreting my post? These are not arguments said by me – these are arguments that come from bad-faith actors who are polluting what are supposed to be welcoming forums by putting the onus on us to behave politely when they are coming into threads with their nonsensical gish gallop. Here you can read more about this. It’s the “You got upset, I win” bullshit that infested reddit and is now infesting Lemmy.

Like when responding to an ignorant comment, are you yelling at them?

Sometimes, yes, and it is not my place to defend my right to exist, and now I’m yelling at you.

you’re not going to change their minds by flying off the handle and yelling at them or using hostile language

Again, changing their minds is not my place. In an inclusive forum, LGBT+ people don’t have to defend our right to exist constantly. If someone wants to learn, there are places they can go that won’t exhaust a bunch of innocent people trying to exist.

the ones making bad faith arguments want you to get pissed and make you look irrational

Yes, and this is why they need to be removed from this community. They don’t belong in a space that is supposed to be validating and welcoming to all.

Don’t fucking let them.

Oh wow, haven’t heard this one before a million times from bigots and their defenders. Thanks for the contribution, Dr. Phil. Now go fuck yourself. Reported.

“Never argue with stupid people they’ll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience” -Mark Twain

Besides which, it’s not kind to spew vitriol, nor is it productive. It’s certainly understandable to be outraged. It makes sense. You certainly can’t ignore such things, it’s not right. Responding in hatred only feeds the conviction of the ignorant and diminishes the righteousness of your own stance.

It’s a lose-lose.

I won’t even start talking about who benefits from everyone fighting each other… Certainly not us!

Bad take. I don’t want it to be up to me as a trans person to educate anyone anymore. And if they’re bad faith ban them lmao.

Thank you. Many times the most transphobic people are themselves trans and scared, rather than sharing reactionaey murdoch nees talking points. I’m glad that you discovered yourself accurately after that rocky path!

I’ve been in forums since the 90s, and if anything it seems to me like many people are more open to discourse now. I got called the f-slur so much back then. The reason it probably seemed better back then to non-LGBT+ people is that they were excluding and marginalizing us.

And if we welcome people like those I refer to in my post, we will be once again excluding and marginalizing LGBT+ people by creating a hostile space.

I don’t think things have gotten worse. It’s just that whenever we get the slightest step towards equity, bigots push back. The only solution I know is to make that impossible for them.

It’s no one’s job to do anything. But if you want to achieve real world results you have to work with the psychology of real world humans. This isn’t a game with an even playing field, it’s real life where people that pursue truth have to work way harder than those that peddle lies.

It’s a completely understandable sentiment because it’s an inherently unfair dynamic, no argument there. But if you want to change things you have to change people and that requires acknowledging that human minds are resistant to corrections and get even more obstinate in the face of hostility. Especially when there’s a whole political movement of reactionaries that will lie about you to get their way.

Not everyone is worth the effort of course, some are too dogmatically attached to their beliefs and others are just contrarian assholes that like hurting others. But the existence of close minded assholes doesn’t mean they are the only people that exist.

I haven’t seen a single megastar really stand up for the trans community.

The only ones I can think of are those who are transgender themselves, such as Lil Uzi Vert

How old does the concept of gender identity need to be for these jerks to fucking accept it?

Forever. Some will always oppose it; whether just to be jerks, or because it gives them control over someone.

Mhmm, not to mention that the argument also erases the perspectives of everyone who was the target of terrible attitudes & institutions, and their allies. Certainly there were FAR more enslaved in the US than slave owners & all those working in the slave trade combined, yet somehow the views of a tiny minority who directly benefitted are the ones we’re supposed to regard as the default?

That and, even the most ardently pro-slavery people of any era knew fine well that they would not have been cool with it had they or their loved ones been enslaved.

True. In Germany, there are still criminal procedures held against and sentences passed on former guards of concentration camps, even though they are close to a hundred years of age. Because even though it was “normal” and even legal back then, it was never okay and always crimes against humanity.

I saw an after school special called “What If I’m Gay?” from the 80s that was surprisingly progressive and didn’t lean on stereotypes or tropes. My elementary PE teacher was an LGBT+ activist, and we had at least one openly LGBT+ speaker at a school assembly who spoke about acceptance, and I grew up in a small conservative town.

Even Nirvana wrote in the liner notes for one of their albums that sexists and homophobes shouldn’t buy their records or come to their shows.

I didn’t know a lot of openly trans people back then, but that’s because many people didn’t feel safe coming out. Regardless, I can’t imagine having responded with the brand of ignorance and hate we were actively pushing back against.

With that being said, LGBTphobia was certainly commonplace back then, but as you said, there was no excuse. People knew better, but they participated in it anyway.

Some people believe in dividing sexual orientations (LGB) from the gender identity letters (T+). During my time on Twitter, I saw it was often from a place of hate, though. I would understand something like: “Although we face similar challenges, we also have different needs that justify an LGB sub-movement”. But that was almost never their attitude.

Do as you like, but don’t imply that it is necessary to be kind to those who question LGBT+ people’s right to equity. It is you who are working for them when you imply we will lose allyship by not being nice enough.

many people just see the community as hostile and unwilling to alleviate ignorance

…which is itself a bigoted belief. No one who approaches in good faith legitimately believes this. You’ve been deceived.

It’s fine to request to be kind to those sincerely asking questions they want to know about, but once it’s known and clear that the person is a troll that’s “just asking questions”, there’s no need to be nice anymore.

If your question is one that trolls ask all’ the time then maybe it’s already been answered somewhere you won’t have to freshly upset people to get to. Like… Idunno, DuckDuckGo or something?

If you know you’re going to offend people then maybe work on your own ignorance a little instead of just showing up and throwing very answered questions at me ('cause who’s it gonna be but some random queer critter(s)?) like it’s my job to sit and tutor you. In fact, you could find someone who would do that but no, you’re gonna come to some trans hangout or stream or a zone chat in a game I’m playing and I’m gonna see “hay lul if ur a women then y u still lik girl?!?” and tell you to go fuck yourself.

…Okay I got a little carried away and maybe your “naive questions” aren’t that bad but at the very least I doubt you’re gonna get dogpiled much (just don’t talk to hexb*ars or the like: they dogpile every single thing they see) for questions that make sense to ask.

tl;dr: If you’re bothering to ask heavily-answered questions, ask a search engine or Wikipedia or something first. We don’t have the time nor energy to individually tutor everyone who only cares to ask and impose rather than listen and absorb.

It was used to handwave away discussions of transphobia, so it is definitely transphobic

It certainly can be in the context of a conversation about transgender folks