To know what I am talking about, let me give you an example. I have this friend who went crazy over the vaccine issue. She’s done so much research into it that I feel like I can’t talk to her about her vaccine skepticism. Whenever I start to talk about something, she would drown me with a ton of articles and youtube videos and most of the times from the actual websites of UN health and stuff. It would have taken me a day to just go through that stuff. So I gave up on convincing her about vaccines. Might seem cruel but even I lost my certainty about vaccines after I met her. There’s just too much to know and I don’t completely trust the institutions either, but I do trust the institutions enough to vaccinate myself and my kids but not enough to you know, hold a debate about it with someone who has spent days researching this stuff.
You can take any topic which is divisive, which basically looms over the media all day and you can find a ton of articles to either support it or “debunk” it. I think 9/11 wasn’t caused by Bush, I am almost certain, but I won’t bet my house on it. I mean, this is almost a certainty, but yeah.
On other issues which are not this much of a certainty I fail to see how to convince a person who thinks something that they are wrong.
Stuff like earth is round or not, I can prove. But was the virus from Chinese market or from a lab, I can’t.
Have aliens visited earth? I don’t know. It would be wicked if we make first contact, but as awesome as this is, I am not motivated to search about this on the internet. I don’t think I would search anything about the not so cool topics of life. I don’t know enough to hold an informed debate about capitalism vs socialism or any other hot button issue for that moment.
What do you do in these situations?
I can sense that this is poorly written, but I hope you get the gist of what I am trying to say.
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This is exceptionally well stated. I saw my parents, myself, and every reddit/lemmy/twitter thread I’ve ever read, in your description.
So much online conversation isn’t conversation at all; it’s posturing; saying something completely irrelevant that attempts to paint the “opponent” into an indefensible corner. The best response, then, also doesn’t respond, and does the same - end result being two people just saying stuff at each other.
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You must have been living under a rock for the last decade. Is there any more space available down there? 'Cause I’d love to live somewhere where I don’t have to hear antivax nonsense.
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I also want in on this rock. Mine isn’t nearly big enough.
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Climate change denial is too common here. Our third (nearly second) largest political party is neofascist and “sceptical” of climate change. Lot’s of conspiracy theories and “alternative truths” floating around in that demographic.
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If you really want to talk to these people (or better, shut them up), ask why their version of events matters. Often they are just very excited about finding “the truth” about something with no consideration of whether their version of reality will effect anything around you. If they think the Bush administration did 9/11, or if we never landed on the moon, or whatever, why does it matter?
Let’s say their internet fu is somehow better than everyone else and they found a smoking gun that says covid was an accidental lab release. So what? Are we going to kill all Chinese people? Does the virus go away? Should we not take a vaccine if the disease came from a lab? Most of their excitement is based on the belief that everything that happens has to have a grand conspiracy make it go that way. And people who believe this have probably never seen how hard it is to pull off a church bake sale. Getting people to coordinate and cooperate on simple things they believe in is already hard. Getting people to go out of their way to do secret, harmful things is rather out there.
Now sometimes the “why does this matter” helps save time in the “should I be around this person” decision, because if their delusion of why this matters involves not taking appropriate steps to protect yourself and loved ones (like taking the vaccine), they are a hazard and a disease spreading vector and you should take caution. The world has gotten relatively safer over time, to the point where people think it must always be safe. These are the people that pet wild bears. You generally don’t want to be around during the find out phase of their fucking around, unless you are making a Youtube video.
But we all know your Youtube video is fake, Ted died of Covid but they wrote “bear attack” on his death certificate because they get more money that way.
If the other person is arguing in good faith, I’ll listen and exchange views until that becomes pointless. If the other person is loaded with an opinion and won’t listen to anything different, I basically shut down and leave them hanging.
If the other person is arguing in good faith
amen!
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Exactly. There are people who are open to reasonable discussion about certain topics and are willing to consider other possibilities and potentially change their minds, while other people are obstinate and unwilling to entertain other possibilities and won’t have an honest debate on the topic.
Talk to the people who you can have actual discussions with, and don’t waste your time on the people who would take herculean effort to even have them hear you.
If you really want to engage with people like this, one good survival tactic is to ask simple questions. “How do you know that?” “Why would they do that?” “How can you be certain?” “Isn’t there a more plausible explanation?”
You might even catch them in logical fallacies or just clear contradictions. “But didn’t you just say the opposite?” “Wouldn’t it make more sense if …?”
A lot of them believe things without questioning it, so your questions could even help them snap out of it. Of course they could also get tired of your questions and end the conversation.
that’s a good one that applies for most of those fallacies out there. Kurzgesart method han?
It’s not poorly written. I understand it bc I feel this way, but I’ve come to a different conclusion.
I’m OK not knowing everything. I’m not ecstatic about it, but I’ve settled with the idea. Experts exist for a reason and I have to trust in that. I can’t research every issue to a college degree level. I gotta make dinner for the kids.
Let your friend have their vaccine research but just don’t bother talking about it to them. Accept the fact that you don’t need to understand every facet of reality to live thru it.
