I often daydream about how society would be if we were not forced by society to pigeon hole ourselves into a specialized career for maximizing the profits of capitalists, and sell most of our time for it.
The idea of creating an entire identity for you around your “career” and only specializing in one thing would be ridiculous in another universe. Humans have so much natural potential for breadth, but that is just not compatible with capitalism.
This is evident with how most people develop “hobbies” outside of work, like wood working, gardening, electronics, music, etc. This idea of separating “hobbies” and the thing we do most of our lives (work) is ridiculous.
Here’s how my world could be different if I owned my time and dedicated it to the benefit of my own and my community instead of capitalists:
- more reading, learning and excusing knowledge with others.
- learn more handy work, like plumbing and wood working. I love customizing my own home!
- more gardening
- participate in the transportation system (picking up shifts to drive a bus for example)
- become a tour guide for my city
- cook and bake for my neighbors
- academic research
- open source software (and non-software) contributions
- pick up shifts at a café and make coffee, tea and smoothies for people
- pick up shifts to clean up public spaces, such as parks or my own neighborhood
- participate in more than one “professions”. I studied one type of engineering but work in a completely different engineering. This already proves I can do both, so why not do both and others?
Humans do not like the same thing over and over every day. It’s unnatural. But somehow we revolve our whole livelihood around if.
Let’s not be confused here. Specialization is what allows for free time. If everyone has to farm and hunt, that’s all you’d do. Specialization is a good thing for humanity and diverse institutions and industries to arise.
Yes, but if we only have to work on our specializations for 16 hours a week each instead of 40+, we would have a lot more time for other good stuff, whether it’s personal development, supporting other specialists, or just hanging out.
i’ve worked for 20h/w and 40h/w. i think 30/32 is a good balance
People are entitled to their preferences. They should also be entitled to overtime after some amount of hours per week that’s lower than forty, I think whatever it takes to bring the rate of unemployment to practically zero.
Yeah, OPs got the spirit but misses the point. We are being pressured to sell our time at a minimum of 40 hours every week. It’s thanks to specialization (and the technology that developed from it) that this quantity of of time is grossly over-allocated. Trade and travel allowed people to create better products in less time, so people were no longer very literally working to live, day-in, day-out. Unfortunately wages are kept low, wealth is kept centralized and culture continues to place value on excess so that we’re continually convinced that we “have” to work as many hours as we can find.
I don’t understand what you think I missed. When I said “specialization”, I meant the idea of just doing one thing and one thing only as a “career”. This doesn’t mean we shouldn’t specialize or that people won’t. But if I specialize in construction labor, with the extra time awarded to me I could also participate in design if I wanted.
Not everyone has to farm and hunt. It was more than 200,000 years ago that humanity figured out how not to get all of us to farm and hunt, way before capitalism ever was a thing.
Speicalization in the context I used does not mean “be an expert at a thing”. It means “Spend most of your time doing just that one thing”. I can see why you were confused, I think my use of “pigeon-holed” was probably better than specializetion.
Money was invented before written history began.[1][2] Consequently, any story of how money first developed is mostly based on conjecture and logical inference.
We don’t actually know when money started so it’s hard to say.
But even before money the person with more stuff could acquire more stuff through barter. Even if they weren’t using money it’s still basically capitalism.
Barter being the predecessor of money is actually false, and has never been supported with sufficient evidence.
From what anthropology tells us, money was introduced by force, not by a natural tendency for humans to barter, and wanting a better way to do it.
And no, that isn’t “basically capitalism”. No “capital” involved here in the sense of capitalism.
Yes we do, money started around temple societies in the fertile crescent to control people and keep them centrally located.
Also, there is no known historical example of a purely barter economy. What’s known now is everything tended to work on an informal gift/reputation economy.
Until money came along, was typically forced upon people, and then if the money system failed, people fell back to a barter system. Neither money or barter are natural for the vast majority of human time and society
Specialization has always been a thing. Probably more so before. A carpenter wouldn’t just wake up and “nah, I’d rather work with pottery today”. The carpenter probably became a carpenter because their parents passed on their carpentering skills to them, so that’s what they do until they die.
Hi Mr Smith, another loaf of your god awful bread please.
I think you misunderstood my comment. I was saying that maybe my use of specialization is incorrect here.
But the same result would occur in socialism. Even communism. I don’t know what you expect to happen in any societal economic structure that would suddenly give you the freedom to do whatever you want whenever you want. Jobs existed the same way all the way back then as they do now. And that was the birth of capitalism, not before it. Most didn’t own their land. It belonged to a king or emperor. Sure there are exceptions and caveats, but to say capitalism didn’t exist back then isn’t accurate. Capitalism isn’t bad. It’s how it’s implemented that makes it awful. I think we need to migrate to socialism via capitalism. But it requires winning of the minds of the populace and that won’t happen until folks have an accurate understanding of both capitalism and whatever system you want them to transition to. I don’t even know what system you’re supporting with your question. It sounds like you’re trying to describe some sort of star trek utopia that supposedly is advanced beyond economic systems (yet how many episodes revolved around trade deals between planets and races… but I digress).
Jobs existed the same way all the way back then as they do now.
Are you arguing that ancient societies had “jobs”, and in the same way that we do nowadays? I don’t intend to be rude (and sorry if I come off that way), but a simple Google search will tell you that’s false, but I’d be glad to cite you exact resources as well.
And that was the birth of capitalism
While the exact beginning of capitalism may be a subject of a little debate, no expert on the matter believes it goes that far back. Again, simple Google search reveals it, and I’ll be glad to cite you resources if you want.
Most didn’t own their land. It belonged to a king or emperor.
This wasn’t always true. There was a time that preceded class society. And not all class society is capitalism.
but to say capitalism didn’t exist back then isn’t accurate.
It is the scientific consensus that it did not.
I think we need to migrate to socialism via capitalism
Not sure what you mean here. Can you please elaborate?
whatever system you want them to transition to
It is simple. Instead of orienting society around profits and capital, we orient it around bettering the human condition. Instead of working our days to generate more profit for capitalists in exchange for money to buy necessities, we work to serve our interests and our own communities. So much wasted labor is suddenly removed.
heres what wikipedia has to say:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Division_of_labour
historically it seems to have been beneficial… and led us to where we are currently.
I’d still be a programmer. I’d work on open source projects 100% of the time. It’s something I love to do.
Man’s got to eat though. I still work in an area that makes the world slightly less shitty though, so it’s not all bad.
I’d have more time to become a better artist.
edit: what the fuck was that unwarranted shitty comment.
dont worry about that other commenter. They’re angry that their argument in another comment was argued against, and now they look stupid.
Thanks. It was so out of left field. Like damn, I’ve never even posted my art on lemmy for anyone to know.
and still wouldn’t
So the question made you so angry, you started projecting your anger over people answering it? LOL
Humans do not like the same thing over and over every day.
Speak for yourself, I like routine and being rewarded for working hard.
- PorkRollWobbly ( @ComradePorkRoll@lemmy.ml ) 16•10 months ago
Do you really get rewarded for working hard? Every time I’ve gone above and beyond for my job it becomes and expectation with no increase in pay. There is no reward for us “no skill” jobs that somehow are the very foundation of this god forsaken societal system we uphold.
I’ve left jobs when I don’t get rewarded for hard work. Thankfully we live in a free market that allows me to also freely choose my employer and occupation.
freely choose my employer and occupation.
As long as you meet the dozens of credentials to work for a place, as well as the 5 to 10 hidden ones they don’t tell you about in the job listing or the interview.
That sounds salty.
Are you denying it’s reality?
No, I’m skeptical because it sounds more like disillusionment.
You don’t think that companies have dozens of credentials and requirements for a job? And hidden ones as well? This is very well documented. The first one is easily verified by looking at indeed.com. I take it you’ve never applied for a job before?
Credentials exist for a reason.
I like my job. It’s not a hobby, but it also ensures I don’t burn out in my hobbies, which happened when I initially tried to make a hobby my job.
I’d rewrite the game engines for Command & Conquer games so that they could be modernized.
It’s a perfectly doable task, but not with the amount of free time I have.
OpenRA is already a thing, you could contribute to that.
I’ve thought about it but their vision is pretty different from what I want to do. I want to keep red alert 2 fully original but decouple frame rate and game speed, and decouple resolution from zoom level.
Is there a good C&C community in lemmy?
Also, were you a member of PPM?
Yeah but I was never very active there.
I run a goth night once every other month.
I visit friends quite often whenever I want to.
I get up and start my day when I feel like it.
I play with code and build web toys.
I’m a freelance IT guy. I could, if I wanted to, earn a lot more than I do, but my time is worth more than money. It is possible to do, even in this world where everyone is told that you need a ‘career’ and to work for a company, although a lot more work is needed to freeing other careers from the obligation of the grind.
Don’t give up hope, unionise, demand respect,buy a guillotine,and keep an eye out for a way to get what you need and to contribute to society or your community without signing your life away.(Yes, some people will never get the opportunity. And that, frankly, pisses me off no end. But don’t lose hope until you’re dead.)
Jesus Christ this post sucks
If only we had a voting system to express whether we thought a post meaningfully contributed or not!
I’m sorry that a harmless question on askLemmy bothers you so much :(
luke’s poor feefees. :(
I’d do what I’m doing now but I’d be helping hospitals and schools instead of companies.
I feel the same about my job. I love what I do, I just wish it was targeted towards helping my community rather than generating profits for rich capitalists
What’s stopping you? Academia is in dire need of software/computer engineering researchers.
I am forced to pick one thing and one thing only, so I picked the thing that gives me the best balance (between pay, enjoyment, working conditions, mobility, etc) and academia wasn’t it. Notice how most of these factors are purely capitalistic
I think I would travel or wander a lot more. Not in an instagram backpacker kind of way, just in a dawdle from town to town road trippy kind of way.
I’ve wanted to RV across the US - spend 5-7 days in any given place - for so long.
Produce documentaries, develop a video game
I would love to do those too!
my world could be different if I owned my time
Self ownership is the basis of capitalism and you’re already playing the game, you’re just playing it bad.
if you’re on hourly I want you to ask yourself if you would pay someone else what you earn at work to do whatever you just did in the last hour.
if not why not? did you explicitly set aside this time to be unproductive? do you think people doing better than you let themselves slide like that?Humans do not like the same thing over and over every day
Speak for yourself, I love having a routine and getting in the zone. Autonomy and Mastery are worth more to me than money.
What a nonsense reply. Describing any rest as “slipping”.
The number one thing, by FAR, that earns money under capitalism is investment. Not work, not skill, not merit. Just having money to invest and shave off your share of someone else’s work.
The “people doing better” actually rest far more than your average worker. They just have money, so they get to make more money even while they are “unproductive”.
I said slide not slip. and managing your time is the takeaway. can’t slip, or slide, if you are being intentional about your time.
People who don’t think they have the time to do anything are usually not being intentional. you get home from work and kick back with a cold one and that’s the whole plan, then the next minute you’re back at work again and you don’t know where the weekend went.
and if you know how to make money under capitalism without working why exactly aren’t you doing that?
Were you too busy doing a capitalism that you forgot to read the comment they made?
The real, unloaded question, should be “what would you do if money was no obstacle”
Presuming capitalism is the reason we have no time is what’s happening here.
But I wouldn’t pay anyone to defend capitalism. oh shit beaten by my own logic.Who wants to go blow up a pipeline?
and if you know how to make money under capitalism without working why exactly aren’t you doing that?
You cannot be serious.
I would love to respond but I have no idea what you’re saying. Sorry. Why would I pay someone for doing my job? I would not be doing it if I could just pay someone to do it lol.
are you working right now? must be nice to have that much free time. let me guess … Union?
j/k just having a laugh. (I’m also union)
I mean when you’re off the clock is your time worth the same to you?
I don’t mean to say there’s no value in rest but occasionally accounting for your free time is a good idea otherwise you wake up in your 50s and wonder where all that time went.
If I wasnt working a job for money I wouldn’t be doing anything that contributed to making food or providing infrastructure. What I did with my time would probably be considered useless by society and that’s why I’m not doing it as a job currently.
I too would never do anything to serve my interests or the interests of my community!
Thank God for our capitalist overlords for keeping us in check. We thank them by making them even more mega rich.
I would sleep a lot more, that’s for sure.
I’d be that guy that makes all those useless inventions, except they’d be incredibly useful to me and like 2 other people.
That’s how many great inventions benefitting the entire world happened :)