I have a few questions on how to best behave to be as welcoming and inclusive as possible without sounding bad. I hope you guys don’t hate me.
I’m just a straight male. Are my pronouns he/him? Is that how I should tell people? Do you actually tell them as you meet them ? Do I have to wait for a certain social cue ?
How about online. Should I tell people or have it on my personal profile somewhere?
And about respecting other people’s pronouns. How do i figure them out ? Is it a big faux pas if I don’t before I know them ? Is it a faux pas if I refer to someone I just met and I assumed to be male as he/him?
I’ve never seen anyone referring to anyone irl by non conventional pronouns. Is it an actual thing or is it currently being pushed to make the world a more inclusive place?
I’d love some help with all of this.
Honestly, I think that if I would say “my pronouns are he/him”, people would think that’s a weird thing to say and would think something like “oh, it’s one of those woke people”.
Where I live, the people that tell you about their pronouns are a minority, and they are usually people that need to tell you their pronouns to avoid confusion, or people that are particularly active in the “woke” community.
For 99% of the people you meet, it’s fair to assume pronouns because it’s obvious. And if your assumption was wrong, they can just tell you. No need to get butthurt over it.
Saying “my pronouns are…” without anyone asking for them is just ridiculous in my opinion. Like, what are people going to say 5 years from now? “My name is …, my pronouns are …, my ethnicity is …, I live in … and my favorite color is …”?
What a dumb way to start a conversation. You know, the whole point of a conversation is that you ask and answer questions, or share things you like to share. We don’t need to share everything in the introduction sentence, including pronouns. It’s just pointless most of the time.
To be clear: if anyone wants to tell me their pronouns right away, all good, I won’t dislike you for it. Just don’t expect the same from me, just assume my pronouns and I’ll be happy to correct you on the off chance that you’re wrong.
No one’s expecting that of you dude. The “woke people” aren’t out to get you because you don’t introduce yourself with your pronouns, nor are they pushing for that ridiculous future hypothetical you set up. They’re just looking to help others get by. No need to be so touchy about it.
I think I know what he means. It’s perfectly acceptable to just use him or her for 99.999% of people, and if you just so happen to meet one of the 0.001% of people that goes out of their way to draw attention to themselves by being offended, they’re probably not worth wasting oxygen on lol
Saying “my pronouns are…” without anyone asking for them is just ridiculous in my opinion.
What a dumb way to start a conversation.
Between those statements and so much concern about seeming “woke”, I don’t think they’re only worried about the “0.001%” here.
Yeah true, but if you start a conversation with “my pronouns are…”, the vast majority of people will assume you’re incredibly self-centred, let’s be honest here. Not a great way to start a conversation
So we’ve gone from “0.001% get offended about pronouns” to “It’s self centered (ie ‘wrong’) to introduce yourself with pronouns.” Maybe just let people engage with the world in the way that best suits them? Sometimes that includes prefacing an introduction with pronouns to head off any mistakes or discomfort. These people are just trying to get by. Try not to be so judgemental.
While I personally wouldn’t go as far as to call people self-centered, I do think Mr Blott has a point, a lot of people may think they are self-centered for immediately declaring their pronouns (or anything else other than your name for that matter).
Anyway, that wasn’t what I was trying to say. All I wanted to say is that I don’t think that announcing your pronouns is something that will be or should be normalized, since it’s pointless for the vast majority of people. I do understand why some people would prefer to do this anyway to avoid the awkward situations like “ahem, actually it’s… euuh… he, not she”, and I don’t have a problem with that.
and I don’t have a problem with that.
You both very clearly do. Stuff like calling things pointless and ridiculous, advocating for the “vast majority” or “99.999%” of people? That only serves to isolate and "other"ize. It’s hurtful and dismissive of real people. Following it up with “but people can do what they want” doesn’t erase what you say. Might as well start it off with “No offense, but…”
If you are truly trying to be kind and accepting here, maybe take some time to self reflect on how you view and talk about these things and what’s behind that.
I apologize if my comment sounds a bit whiny or if I sounded a bit touchy. I was just a bit annoyed with the amount of comments that seem to suggest telling people what your pronouns is is a common thing in real life, while in my experience, almost no one will ever do that, since it’s obvious in 99.9% of all cases.
But I suppose I could have phrased my comment a bit less aggressively and I could have made my point clear with less rambling.
while in my experience, almost no one will ever do that, since it’s obvious in 99.9% of all cases.
Just because you have little knowing experience with people that don’t match what you consider “normal” doesn’t mean it’s near non-existant. You seem to be under the impression that people are going out of their way to address a non-issue when it very much affects real people.
You don’t need to do it yourself, but dismissing it, calling it stupid or ridiculous, or just generally insinuating that it’s something only weird people do is not helpful or kind. Quite the opposite, really.
The reality is that not everyone can go out of their way to adapt to every minority group in existence. I get that it affects people, but that’s just life. Social norms are based on the most common needs and interests of society, not on those of each minority group combined.
As another example, consider neurodivergent people (ASD, AD(H)D, etc.). Such people (including myself) may struggle when trying to live in a world where most people are “normal” (e.g. poor social skills, anxiety, sensitivity to noises, etc.). It would be nice if everyone could adapt to the needs of all others, but it’s unrealistic in practice due to how many different people with different needs there are in this world.
I don’t go to people and expect them to adapt to my needs either, because I’m not entitled to their effort to adapt. Unless they are close friends, and they get to know me better, then maybe they will choose to avoid doing things that make me uncomfortable.
My point is: stop trying to revolutionize the world and introduce new social norms based on the needs of very tiny groups, you’ll only annoy people.
Again, no one is demanding you do this. We’re just taking in circles at this point, so I’ll just leave it at that, with another suggestion to self reflect if you are earnest about being accepting of others.
no one is demanding you
In that case my previous comment is irrelevant and off-topic. It was a misinterpretation of your comment on my end.
In my original comment I did say that I don’t have a problem with people that do tell me their pronouns, even if I do think that’s a bit stupid and weird (we will have to agree to disagree on this one I’m afraid). This does not mean I’m not accepting of others, I only mean that I think this specific kind of social interaction feels weird to me.
I apologize if my opinion of this comes over as unkind or unhelpful. In fact I might even agree that it is unhelpful and unkind, but I much rather share an unhelpful opinion than a dishonest one (perhaps it is better for me to stay quiet in this case). I’m sure many people share my opinion or have a similar one. You also can’t expect people to immediately change their opinion or be dishonest about it based on the needs of a minority group.
I also apologize if my initial comment sounded too aggressive and/or hateful. Maybe I should have chosen a more polite way to share this opinion?
Cis allies usually put pronouns in their bios to show support and normalize the act itself of specifying then online. IRL since you are cis and I asume you look masculine there is no need to specify your pronouns.
Just whenever you meet someone and they tell you to talk to them in a specific way, just do it and respect their pronouns. Its easy. Most people dont care if you get it wrong the first times as long as you acknowledge your mistake and correct yourself, your brain will get used to it and you will not make the mistake later. That’s the different between someone who is learning and an idiot purposefully misgendering someone.
BTW if you arent sure about someone elses pronouns, just ask them. Easy.
Cool thanks. I just put mine up in my bio. Hopefully in the right spot.
Your first sentence is a really good point. Many cis-gendered people thing it’s pointless to add their pronouns in their email/bio, but it helps to not out those who are trans. If everyone/most people state their pronouns then it makes it harder to unnecessarily identify those who are trans.
People who actually care about pronouns will tell you theirs.
Mostly it’s chill - don’t worry about it. If you make an honest mistake, no sane person will think less of you for it. The real faux pas people keep running into is usually just being a cock about this. It’s reasonably easy to avoid.
You likely don’t need to tell anyone IRL. You’re a guy, so he/him is natural. Nobody’s likely to even ask. Same applies if it’s obvious online, otherwise feel free to add it in your profile or something.
And about respecting other people’s pronouns. How do i figure them out ? Is it a big faux pas if I don’t before I know them ? Is it a faux pas if I refer to someone I just met and I assumed to be male as he/him?
Most people are cis (etc) anyway, so the obvious guess is mostly safe. You rarely need to refer to anyone by a pronoun before they’re introduced to you. In that case it’s “they” - perfectly normal, native English for centuries, which people sometimes forget. Then, if someone’s introduced as “Bob” he’s probably fine with “he” etc.
If you’re worried about getting it wrong, I’d just wait for a name or refer to them some other way.
I’ve never seen anyone referring to anyone irl by non conventional pronouns. Is it an actual thing or is it currently being pushed to make the world a more inclusive place?
IRL that’s unlikely, neopronouns are pretty niche even on the internet. He/she/they will do in the vast majority of cases. People who insist on one of the other ones are fairly rare.
Outside the internet no-one really cares. Inside the Internet only certain bubbles care.
And one of the best parts of online discussions is that they are not biased by how you look, just what you write :)
I don’t know if it would be any better rating myself based on looks instead of my writing :D
But yes, that’s a great thing. Everyone in the Internet is just an entity addressed by the nickname. There is no need for gender or pronouns.
I’m just a straight male. Are my pronouns he/him?
Probably. Straight is the wrong word here - that refers to your sexuality, not your gender identity. A straight male is into women. But a straight male could also have pronouns other than he/him. Usually, a cisgender male uses he/him pronouns, but not always. Cisgender is a word that means that your gender identity matches your assigned gender at birth - e.g. not transgender
Is that how I should tell people?
Yes, the best way to do it is part of your introductions, like, “Hi, I’m Blake, my pronouns are he him”. Usually people don’t “say” the slash, it’s just a space, but you can say it if you want.
Do you actually tell them as you meet them ?
It’s up to you. If I am meeting someone 1:1 for the first time, I probably wouldn’t unless they did first. I always do it when I’m introducing myself to a group.
Do I have to wait for a certain social cue ?
The only social cue is simply, “what are your pronouns?”. Ideally, we (cisgender folk) should be trying to make it easier for transgender/non-binary people by sharing our pronouns, even if they would be obvious to most people - I’m a hairy, 6’4” bear, most people can tell I identify as male, but if I say my pronouns are he/him or any/all pronouns (I don’t mind which pronouns people use for me) it makes it less awkward for trans people or gender non-conforming (GNC) folk to do so.
How about online. Should I tell people or have it on my personal profile somewhere?
It’s up to you, nobody will expect it from you - it’s personal information after all. If you’re comfortable sharing it, then you can put it anywhere you like, including on your profile, or you can share at the point it becomes relevant.
And about respecting other people’s pronouns. How do i figure them out?
Either they tell you, or you ask them! It’s better if you avoid trying to guess. If you need to use a pronoun and you haven’t been told them, go with they/them.
Is it a big faux pas if I don’t before I know them ?
Nope, not at all! No one is expecting you to know their pronouns before they tell you, or you ask.
Is it a faux pas if I refer to someone I just met and I assumed to be male as he/him?
Usually not - most of the time, you probably can guess from gender expression, and you wouldn’t cause any offence. If there is even 1% doubt in your mind though, you should definitely just ask. Even if you’re 99.99% or even 100% sure, it’s good to ask anyways. The more we normalise people asking and sharing pronouns, the less awkward it becomes for everyone!
I’ve never seen anyone referring to anyone irl by non conventional pronouns. Is it an actual thing or is it currently being pushed to make the world a more inclusive place?
In my experience, it’s pretty uncommon, but it does exist. Usually they’re used by people who don’t really feel comfortable identifying as exclusively male or exclusively female, or by people who want to subvert or oppose the usual gender binary.
Hope this helps, thanks for being open with your questions and for trying to make the world a better place! If you have any other questions just ask.
Yes, your pronouns are he/him :)
Generally, people are pretty chill about it. If you are unsure how to refer to someone, you can always just call them by their first name or something else (the barista at the front counter, the person in the yellow sweater, etc!)
I wouldn’t overthink it, most people are totally cool if you get it wrong, especially if you show a willingness to get it right from then on. Queer people just wanna be treated like everyone else :)
-queer guy living in the gay district
you can always just call them by their first name or something else
Well I didn’t know you were called Dennis.
I wouldn’t ask someone their pronouns as a conversation opener because it makes some folks uncomfortable. For example a trans person might wonder something like “Do they ask that of everybody? Do I not pass?” if “passing” is something they care about.
It’s better to just correct mistakes when you make them. It’s also just something you’ll pick up automatically talking with people they know, and like here where the hypothetical person’s pronouns are ambiguous you can fall back to they. And when taking to the person themselves you are going to be using you anyway.
Pronouns are largely used to refer to people in the third person. As such I will never declare my pronouns because they aren’t for me to use, they’re for other people to use to refer to me. As such they should use whatever pronouns deliver maximal clarity for the listener.
I will respect others’ pronoun preferences because I’m not an asshole, but when people start trying to tell me that I’m being bigoted by not stating my own pronouns, they can fuck off.
Just for another use case, pronouns can help clarify if you prefer to be called sir or ma’am.
I wouldn’t call you a bigot for not having preferred pronouns though, that seems really silly.
Your pronouns are whatever you would like to be referred to. Generally someone would either correct you or you would hear the right ones during conversation to learn someone else’s. If they outwardly present as a specific gender then I would normally assume (or default to they/them) and just apologize and correct if someone corrects me. Most normal people will take such an interaction in stride without further thought.
In terms of online, people often add it to their profile so you know, or to indicate to others that you respect their choice of pronouns.
In terms of online, people often add it to their profile so you know, or to indicate to others that you respect their choice of pronouns.
This is the only reason I show my pronouns in my email signature and in virtual meetings. I think it’s important to normalize that people have and use different pronouns and, as an educator, it’s my responsibility to infuse SOGI (sexual orientation and gender identity) into my practices. Every action, however small, moves the needle.
Come to think of it, I should probably figure out how to do that on Lemmy, since I think there’s display name settings?
Getting someone’s pronouns wrong once really isn’t too big of a deal. What’s more important is how you react to being corrected and using what they ask you to going forward.
I still don’t know a good way to ask people their pronouns. Or rather I haven’t had to do it often so I don’t have much practice still so I still feel weird. Sometimes I get nervous that asking someone their pronouns might even make them feel like they don’t pass as the gender they want to present as. I’ve talked about this with people and the advice I’ve been given is that the best way to do it is to introduce yourself with your own pronouns. I still haven’t really had much opportunity to do it so not sure how to make it flow conversationally but the idea is that you’re giving everyone the opportunity to do the same plus it lets them know that you won’t react poorly to hearing someone tell you their pronouns.
I’ve really only met one person who prefers they/them and a couple of she/they folks. The trans people I have met all pass well enough in my brain that I don’t have to consciously try to use the correct pronoun. It just takes some effort to get used to.
Back in, say, 2016 or so there was a meme about “did you just assume my gender?” It was always a caricature and it seems like most people either want you to assume it or are okay if you get it wrong so long as you correct yourself once they correct you.
I too, am a straight male. It’s actually pretty easy.
It might be a bit of a faux pas when addressing someone as he/him when they prefer something else. Simply, if the mistake is made, they’ll correct your assumption (I’m sure they get it all the time, it’s not that big of a deal), and tell you their pronouns. Then it’s your task, socially, to respect their wish to be referred to by their pronouns. It might seem awkward to refer to someone directly as “they” or “them”, but it is grammatically correct, it just sounds awkward to our brains because it’s so rarely used as a singular direct pronoun… direct in the way that you’re talking to, or in the presence of that person… but it’s perfectly fine and preferred by your friend/colleague/acquaintance or whatever.
For yourself, if you’re commonly and most comfortably referred to as he/him, then you have two options: 1. ignore it, and people will assume, or 2. put “he/him” in things like your bio/email signature/about me pages and leave it at that. It doesn’t require qualification or context, like “my pronouns are” or something like that, just “he/him” alone in your bio is enough to let people know what you are comfortable with.
Personally, I don’t do anything, I let people assume, because I’m unbothered if someone refers to me as he/him/she/her/they/them. All pronouns for me are fine. I’m most commonly referred to as he/him because it’s the historically “correct” pronouns, but pronouns are more or less irrelevant to me.
And yes, people do, in fact, prefer they/them. I’ve met a few, and it feels awkward at first to say “they”/“them”, but you get used to it.
I think at some point language as a whole will shift. Most languages have had a concept of masculine/feminine and differentiating between genders for most if not all of their history. This seems pretty weird as a concept in modern times since it serves no real benefit. If we were to develop a language from scratch today I don’t think it would have such features.
Its going to take a pretty long time (hundreds of years) but language is constantly evolving. I think it will get there. In the meantime things are going to remain at least a little confusing.
I have a few transgender friends and its still a bit if a mental hurdle to see them as who they want to be identified as sometimes. I sometimes slip up and will call them by their old name or use the wrong pronoun. It’s never intentional of course, but sometimes my mental auto-correct isn’t working at full capacity. If I meet the person post-transition then its never really a problem as I always see them as that gender.
Watch Princess Bride. Perfect that “as you wish”. With genuine sincerity.
Perfect. You’ve had a fun movie experience (Inconceivable!) and you now know the perfect way to respond to someone who has asked you or corrected you regarding pronouns.
I don’t tell people my pronouns. I’m male. I look male. I act male.
I appreciate when people are questionable or want to use different pronouns tell.
I equally appreciate when people don’t ask mine.
I can’t imagine asking someone, that feels so rude. I just use they/them for most people. I would worry that asking would set any transphobes off while also being a tiny kernel of “I don’t pass” to trans people.
I hate guessing. Normally it’s obvious.
If it’s questionable. Most will offer unless they’re looking for drama.
I have a client who goes by they. I see I don’t do they. They asked me to use whatever I want they matches how they’re expressing. Perfect. They volunteered it when we met.
I try to accommodate everyone. It’s just manners. I just can do they. I screw it up.