So a view I see a lot nowadays is that attention spans are getting shorter, especially when it comes to younger generations. And the growing success of short form content on Tiktok, Youtube and Twitter for example seems to support this claim. I have a friend in their early 20s who regularly checks their phone (sometimes scrolling Tiktok content) as we’re watching a film. And an older colleague recently was pleased to see me reading a book, because he felt that anyone my age and younger was less likely to want to invest the time in reading.
But is this actually true on the whole? Does social media like Tiktok really mould our interests and alter our attention? In some respects I can see how it could change our expectations. If we’ve come to expect a webpage to load in seconds, it can be frustrating when we have to wait minutes. But to someone that was raised with dial-up, perhaps that wouldn’t be as much of an issue. In the same way, if a piece of media doesn’t capture someone in the first few minutes they may be more inclined to lose focus because they’re so used to quick dopamine hits from short form content. Alternatively, maybe this whole argument is just a ‘kids these days’ fallacy. Obviously there are plenty of young adults that buck this trend.
Nothing has changed
I don’t believe anything has changed neurologically or psychologally in the last decades.
There have always been people who are more susceptible to consume “trashy” (provoking, easy to consume) media.
Once it was low-quality newspapers (a german band once refered to them as “fear, hate, tits and the weather forecast”, which fits really well!), then it was trash TV, then mobile games, and now TikTok and stuff. Some people are just attracted to flashy stuff and can’t get enough dopamine.
It’s just that the latter example is very new, and everything new is automatically bad, no matter what.
There have always been young people who read books, create art, video game, listen or create music, have hobbies, and so on.
BUT, something has changed:
One word: attention economy. Capitalism realized, that especially in combination with ads, you can create A LOT of money by making easy to consume content.
If a platform uses dark patterns (emotional or funny content, reinforcement, short content instead of longer stuff, flashy stuff, likes, endless scrolling, keeping you as long as possible in the app, etc.), it makes a lot more money with it’s users.
Years of algorithms perfectionized manipulating you and your attention span with supernatural stimuli (as mentioned above).
What to do with those informations?
Notice, how boring Lemmy, RSS-feeds, and stuff like that are?
After checking my posts for this day, I’m done and do something different, like cleaning the kitchen. Now, I’m on the toilet and don’t have anything else to do, and I have fun answering you :)
That’s how our devices should work. I don’t wanna be a slave, I want to own my device, and not the other way around.
Tbh, I’m grateful Reddit went downhill. A year ago I could never imagine nuking my account.
I spent my whole teenage and now adult years (15 - now) on that shithole, was super addicted and couldn’t spend 2 minutes without checking my phone, even in meetings, dates, and so on. It was just as bad as vaping for me. I knew, that it was slowly killing every brain cell, but “loved” it too much.
Thanks, u/spez ❤️ You killed Reddit for me and made my new “Reddit” (-> Lemmy, but with the same app) THAT boring for me I bought an e-reader now to read books instead😂
Yes I think you’re right. People haven’t changed, but the environment has changed - it’s continually getting better at manipulating us.
Lemmy does have a limited amount of content, but what it does have seems to be of higher quality. Which is perfect! We don’t need constant, cheap content.
I wouldn’t agree with “better content” per se.
There’s just as much “spam” (links to articles, low effort posts, etc.) as everywhere else. At the same time, the content is waaaay better.
Karma
The fact that you don’t have to keep your karma in mind here let’s you speak more freely.
If I would say “Pineapple on pizza is disgusting”, I would have been downvoted to oblivion on Reddit. Here, they just ignore it, OR, don’t downvote and tell me why I might be wrong.
Back to Reddit: That, in fact, would give me two options:
- Delete this said comment, which would discourage discussions and make every community hive-minded, or,
- Stay strong to my opinion, and loose the ability to post to many subs anymore, because I now have -5000 Karma.
I always chose 1… Here, I don’t care. And this mindset has lead to many great, mind opening discussions.
Even on subs like r/Changemyview or r/Unpopularopinion this culture didn’t exist. No opinion was unpopular, merely “weird” (like “I like my socks wet” and stuff). Every “unpopular” opinion was popular on Reddit. And elsewhere, everything was a fight.
On this site, disagreeing is only for useful discussions I had/ read too. It’s almost like an “anti-echochamber”, and I love it! I love my opinions being challenged.
One more result of that is that the upvote/ downvote function went from “I agree/ I find that funny” or “This is against the subs opinion” to “This comment is worth reading for others and adds value. OP put work into it”. WHICH IT SHOULD ALWAYS HAVE BEEN! This button isn’t for disagreeing, it’s for FILTERING out trash!
Algorithm
Also, there’s no algorithm. On many other social media, post that make you laugh (-> mostly dumb stuff or reposts) or promote strong emotions (mostly aggression and tribalism) got promoted.
Here, it’s somehow totally random. There’s so much “boring” stuff on my trending page. But, I’ve discovered many cool niche subs here I wouldn’t have otherwise. I didn’t know so many people were into collecting space rocks and model trains for example 😁
E.g., my own gourmet-mushroom-growing-community got super many views and comments from people who’ve never heart of that before. That was unbelievable!
On the other hand, there’s sooo much useless information, some opt-in filtering/ algorithm wouldn’t be bad tbh. But many say that about account karma too, which is a way smaller feature, and that has repercussions too (see above). Something like an algorithm would be HUGE, but also maybe hugely bad for this site?
Idk, tell me! Be controversial! 😁
Yes the karma system here is way better! It definitely reduces the hive mind mentality.
I don’t think we need any kind of algorithm though. That would only serve to make the popular stuff more popular and the niche stuff gets buried. Maybe if I could personally filter out communities that I’m not interested in?
Yes the karma system here is way better! It definitely reduces the hive mind mentality.
Sure, but we have to make sure we communicate what the up-/downvote function actually is for. Many Reddit-refugees would otherwise just keep it as a “I agree”-button, and nothing would change for the better.
Maybe if I could personally filter out communities that I’m not interested in?
I agree with the sentence before, but I don’t think filtering out everything you’re uninterested in is remotely possible. Yes, you can filter out some specific communities you dislike, like all those Linux-subs, if you find them annoying. (OH, btw.: That was a comment in one of their/ our memes, and when one guy, coming from outside the sub, complained this stuff is constantly on his trending page, someone suggested “We’re only 3 popular subs. Just blacklist us and you’ll never hear from us again” it really resonated with me!)
Alternative?
I personally would rather enjoy a “promote” than “bury” function, something like a “GigaUpvote™” for posts you wish others to see too. Market the up- and downvote button as a quality filter, especially for comments, and if a post gets a certain ratio of up- and downvotes, comments and promotions, it will appear on the “popular”-tab.
Just as an additional function, IF YOU WANT. Keep the “old” spirit for those who prefer it, and suggest it for newcomers to find new content. And make it easy to toggle off for social media junkies like myself.
Your concerns about the need for an algorithm is correct.
But, instead of “personalized content”, users should be able to make their own algorithm, with subscription and filter lists. I use uBlock Origin to block content you named as ‘tribalist’ (good take!).
But maybe I’m more sensitive. I don’t find Lemmy boring, I can lurk here for hours. So I also blocked the ‘prev/next’ buttons just to stay on the first page (I’m an eccentric person).
Good article.
Getting off reddit was one of the best things I’ve done for myself in years. I’m still fairly active on lemmy thanks to having a lot of free time at work but I’ve also been reading and making an earnest effort to enrich my mind again. Feelsgoodman
Same here. I have nothing of value to add.
What changes did you notice in your thought patterns when you withdrew from Reddit?
What books are you into and would recommend? Is there a community here?
I noticed that I take a lot more care and attention on my posting on lemmy in general. The conversation can be much richer than it is on Reddit and I feel that it’s worth my time to sometimes write several paragraphs, cite sources and really dig into a topic. Be it star trek lore, political theory, or the weather. It’s nice to have a space where thoughts can be challenged and discussed without it devolving into a shit slinging competition. I also don’t find myself on lemmy much when I’m not at work which has led to me being more present in my home life I’ve been able to get more done around the house. I have terrible ADHD and it came as a surprise how much easier it’s been, it’s still difficult but it’s better. I find I’ve just slowed down a bit and been more attentive overall. I won’t attribute that wholesale to reddit as I’ve been making other lifestyle changes lately but being online too much was certainly an issue and it’s made those other changes easier by virtue of having more time.
I’m on a big political theory bend right now as far as reading goes. I’ve read the conquest of bread, mutual aid, the state and revolution, bullshit jobs, some of capital (it’s boring as fuck lol), the dawn of everything, some short writings from Malatesta, and a few others I’m blanking on right now. I’m also working my way through the Lord of the rings as well. I plan on revisiting some old favorites down the line too.
As for recommendations, I can’t praise The Dawn of Everything enough. I lumped it in with politics earlier but it’s really not (in the traditional sense). It’s co-written by anthropologist David Graeber and archaeologist David Wengrow. In the book they attempt to go through the historical, anthropological, and archeological record to construct a grand narrative for the development of human society. They offer some very compelling evidence against the old myths of the noble savage or primitive barbarian that have been the dominant theories of human social development since the late enlightenment. It’s truly eye-opening and fascinating. Also, if you haven’t read the Lord of the Rings before, do yourself a favor and give it a go, you won’t regret it.
There are a few book communities here, but I’m blanking on which instances they’re on at the moment. I’ll have to go through my subscribed pages and come back to link them
I noticed that I take a lot more care and attention on my posting on lemmy in general. The conversation can be much richer than it is on Reddit and I feel that it’s worth my time
Yep, same. I’ve also spent A LOT of time in this quarter just creating content and answering comments. But, none of it felt like wasted energy and I don’t regret anything. I was able to strengthen my created community, help others in topics I’m interested in, and so on…
I have terrible ADHD
Again, same. Medication and meditation helped a lot making me more mentally balanced and being able to read a book or doing hard mental work.
Also, when I let my thoughts drift, I think about all those great interactions I’ve had this day and not how shitty everything is in general, like it has been on Reddit. That really took a strain on my wellbeing, and I reduced my usage of it long before taking the plunge and switching to Lemmy.
Book recommendations
I “really” started reading not a long time ago. That was just something I was never able to due to said untreated ADHD, but now, I can, AND I LOVE IT!
I just started reading the Witcher books after playing through The Witcher 3. Even though I played it for 400 hours “without break”, it really hurt when it ended, and I wanted more from this immersive, disgusting, magic, beautifully crafted world. Those books (I’m into 2/6 now) are way better than I could have ever imagined and really help me break out of all this RL shit. Those books also demonstrate again how capitalism, Hollywood and Netflix transform a piece of european culture (which TW is based on) and extremely interesting characters into something as shallow and americanized as the series on Netflix. Different topic…
On the more “nerdy” side, I’m currently reading “Running Mycelium” from Paul Stamets right now. It’s about how mushrooms could save the world, for example by filtering out toxic waste or plastic from the environment, giving us a sustainable building solution, new medicinal horizons (e.g. antibiotics), and so on.
Yeah, otherwise, I have a lot of books in my reading list and already downloaded.
I will definately take a look into your recommendation, that sounds like a possibility for me to be fun at the next party 🙃 Text
I dropped reading for most of my adult life, I had a hard time with it as a child too before I got diagnosed but my symptoms were a lot less severe then too so it was still easier than it currently is. Im poor and don’t have health insurance so I’m unmedicated which IS NOT fun lol. But I’m making it (barely) work.
The witcher is a series I’ve wanted to get into for a while, glad to hear the books are as great as they sound! The games are fantastic so I’m sure the source material only gets better. Mycology is fascinating topic as well. I’m an amateur grower and forager when I can bother to get off my ass. It’s a pretty dope subject and an even doper hobby if you’re in the market for one.
If you want a fun YouTube recommendation, Crime pays but botany doesn’t is a good channel. He’s an Italian from Chicago with a lot of passion for ecology and reducing mans influence on nature. Most of his videos are just him walking around the woods and pointing out cool plants lol. But he has this guy on his videos on a semi-regular basis, Adam Rockefeller. His specialty is on psylocibin mushrooms of all varieties and there’s some really enlightenimg info on them in those videos. From field identification and testing to genomic sequencing and plenty of other stuff. The guys a savant. He doesn’t seem to have a large independent presence online but it’s always a pleasant surprise when he shows up. I have a suspicion you would enjoy it
I know the song you’re talking about! :D
Love the BILD reference
Tldr? /s
Walls of text everywhere I’m scared
Lmao. Took me a while to understand this.
attn short?
Try reading a book for 5 hours in the city surrounded by your devices, and try doing it in nature with no devices around you. We didn’t change, but our world did and we adapt with it. Of course, things wouldn’t be so bad if there weren’t people getting unimaginably rich by trapping your attention.
Yes behaviourally, no empirically.
You get a positive dopamine reactive from viewing multiple short form content pieces in succession, you get an arguably more valuable serotonin reaction from viewing a more in depth piece and maybe feeling like you learned something.
How you’re affected by these feelings of satisfaction will influence your behaviour. I recently compared mine and my wife’s weekends, she’d watched a lot of short form content and couldn’t remember a thing, felt empty from it, I’d watched a series of a tv show and could talk about the story and concepts.
But that’s not all there is to it, Plato argued that the written world would dumb people down because they no longer had to remember things and pass them on vocally, maybe a decrease in the requirement for individual cognition, but obviously an overall good.
Edit: edit was messing with me so I couldn’t add this til now. I’m just a drunk guy enjoying dinner and browsing Lemmy, what you’re looking for is the simple answer, the dopamine hit, a minimal conversation. Put your attention span to the test and look into some open access research on the subject, it’ll be fun! And its all that seperate us from the YouTubers that we venerate so much
Some great points! So you think that people’s capacity for attention hasn’t changed, but the types of media we’re exposed nowadays to can encourage us to change our behaviour toward consuming short form content? But if that content wasn’t available, they could happily move back toward longer form content?
I do agree that short dopamine hits do make me feel good in the moment, but hollow after the fact. Longer, informative content does lodge itself more into my brain and provide longer lasting feelings of reward.
Yeah I think that’s about right, our capacity hasn’t changed this quickly, just the menu has changed to suit a quick fix appetite.
People can and will still focus on longer form content, but maybe that’s their day job, so they want a bit of a release from in depth activity or ‘important’ information.
I think there is a real danger here in some form… think about how you’d answer the question ‘what did you do on the weekend?’ That could easily be nothing or it could be I watched a great series called severance that explored the concepts of labour and our work and home lives as human beings
It’s pretty interesting how there really wasn’t any written records for thousands of years. Entire religions and, as in Plato’s time, whole schools of thought just weren’t written down except for a few students notes.
Obviously time and decay factor into it, but there seems to be a culture shift at a certain point that more people decided to record things other than taxes and itemization.
I argue that the written word is our greatest invention. Without it we’d be back to square one every other generation.
Yep, that’s the root of the ‘how long do you spend thinking about the Roman Empire?’ Meme right?
It’s some of the earliest popular records of reflexive thought and philosophy, available to us because it was recorded, and still the same shit we’re struggling with right now
It’s genuinely more effective in today’s society to skim read and give up if the content isn’t good. There is so much time wasting bullshit, misinformation, ads, and scams put in front of us. But we don’t have a great defense mechanism, so our attention spans have suffered alongside the quickening of our skepticism response.
I remember when I was a kid they’d discuss teens as the “MTV generation”, kids who didn’t really watch TV, they just watched music videos, and even then there was scrolling news down the bottom and boxes would pop up on the side showing different things. They said kids had attention spans of 12 seconds and it would cause massive issues with finding work and being productive as adults.
I’m in my 30’s now and I’ve heard the same thing about every generation since.
It seems that the real issue is that teenagers have short attention spans and adults have amnesia.
It’s almost like you started reading this Time Article but never finished.
Or maybe this sciences times article
While the consensus is out about whether or not or attention spans are really shortening, most sources say whatever is going on, isn’t permanent…yet.
We still have the ability to unplug and find something that’s truly interesting to us, something that we care about, and focus on it. We just have to find it, and then, actually do it.
If it has, it has only been a recent phenomenon. Hell, the need for a large portion of the population to concentrate for a long period of time is a recent development.
Attention spans are only really an issue where attention was economically valuable.
I don’t think this is so much about concentration. It is about tolerance of not being stimulated. It’s about how strongly people are driven to seek stimulation when they aren’t feeling sufficiently stimulated.
I think it’s not the attention. Too little time has gone since the computational revolution of the 70s for us to see any evolutionary changes. The way we communicate and process info had changed very dramatically though. Information travels faster, spreads wider, all the feedback cycles that used to be weeks long have now tightened down to milliseconds. Or culture requires faster reaction, processing and production times of everyone involved.
Tl;dr
I can’t comment outside of personal experience, but I noticed my retention has gotten incredibly short. I have this little slab constantly calling for my attention and won’t let me focus on anything for a long period of time. Then, because of the convenience of storing everything electronically and having it in that same little slab, I have noticed that I can’t really remember much. However, as of late, I have taken up journaling and writing everything down with pen and paper, and this has allowed me to remember and focus better on things.
I have heard that because writing is slower than typing things, it gives more time for our brains to memorize them. Also, I have turned off all notifications and left all social networks, and I can feel more engaged in whatever is going on in my real life.
I can only speak for myself, and am not a teen, but I can tell you I used to be able to, but can no longer: hear a person’s phone number once and memorize it, remember 4-5 directional turns without writing it down, watch a 2 hour movie I’m not enthralled with, stare at traffic or people walking by and not be upset I’m wasting my time.
I think it’s more the access to knowledge and productivity that has changed our society’s concept of what needs to be remembered or what we should spend our thought on, than it is a generational neuro-difference.
For me the only thing that changed is that I now have options. As a teenager I could watch movies I had no interest in, or play some story heavy rpg game in Japanese or many other things I don’t do anymore, but back then the alternative was watching some ice cubes melt. Today I don’t do those things because I can do other stuff that appeal to me more.
I think the question is flawed and so are the responses. You all wrote far too much so I cba to read
As a teacher: Essays written in exam conditions have become shorter over time. The exam is not shorter in length. A successful art, history, or English HSC exam would be completed with 6, 8 or 12 pages or more in the 1990s, and now likely has half those pages. Still 1.5 or 2 hours or three hours long, as it was back in the 90s.
Maths? “Brain breaks” are in vogue. 20 years ago, a high level senior student (age 16-18) would be expected to do calculus for a two hour “double” lesson. Now if they work on calculus for half an hour, they expect to have a ten minute break and start work again. Does this make the student more productive? No, they complete less pages of the same textbook. Newer textbooks, correspondingly, have far less physical work in them than textbooks written 20 years ago.
The “non academic” track? There are less apprenticeships available, and students get rejected from the few that exist. 40 years ago the NSW trains had 200 apprenticeships a year. Now they have four a year. We have had apprentices sent back to us two weeks in with the (fail level) complaint “won’t put his phone away.” The teen is then put back in the academic track, as education opportunities are compulsory, and they learn nothing as the accusation is true.
Yes, with this evidence, you might be right about this lot.
Thanks for this perspective. I wonder if a lot of this isn’t so much an issue with attention span, but more a reluctance to put the work in?
That said, it does sound like it’s the environment itself that’s causing it. If the schools are encouraging ‘brain breaks’, I assume there’s good reason behind it? Does that improve learning/retention?
I suslect one of the reasons brain breaks are happening is that it’s nice to have a break as a teacher, too.If it does help retention, it isn’t noticeable, but it does help with your relationship with the students, so there’s that in its favour. I don’t mind about the brain breaks, but the drills and practice were a tried and true method for hundreds of years for a reason; They work, and lead to more output and focus long term. Self motivation is a great skill to have for any future endeavour, even if your job is not related to maths, or biology, or art, or whatever.
One of the activities students always do is “past papers”, completing the examination material from historical exams to practice for the real thing. Even the students have pointed out to me the difficulty of the papers has eased in the last twenty years, and the marking rubrics are more forgiving than they were.
I dare you to watch this whole video.
Wow, 9 years ago!
Good stuff