https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=u01AbiCn_Nw mental outlaw video:
hi everyone, i was planning on getting a new laptop cheaply for about 500ish but then i stumbled upon this near-totally modular laptop rhat starts out at above 1000 bucks. do you think the cheaper laptop in the long run is just a false economy and i should go for the framework or what? if you want to ask questions go ahead but im mainly concerned about the longterm financials (and how well it will keep up over time)
To be honest you probably won’t save money as you’ll be more likely to upgrade regularly. I bought my Framework 13-inch last year and already bought a gorgeous new matte screen for it, and I’d been eyeing upgrading the mainboard with the new AMD one now. In the past with laptops I’d hold onto them for years until they couldn’t perform, and now I’m considering upgrading my device a second time within only a year?
I really do love my Framework, but the easier upgradability makes upgrading more likely, which means more expenses - unless you can restrain from upgrading more often than you would on a laptop. Since budget seems to be a concern for you this may be worth keeping in mind. On the other hand though, I’d be concerned about how long a $500 laptop will last you anyway (the ones I used for years were more like $1200).
One final thing - some parts can’t necessarily be carried over when upgrading to a new generation. For example, to upgrade to the AMD mainboard I’ll also have to buy new RAM as the generation upgraded to a newer variant. If I want to use my old mainboard as a home server, I’ll also have to purchase replacement parts for what it loses in the upgrade (new hard drive, new expansion ports, cheap case). It’s great if you had an existing need for a home server, not so much if you didn’t. Since I hate throwing out electronics I’ll end up buying more to keep it operational, even though in practice I won’t use it very much.
TL;dr - Framework makes upgrading and reuse cheaper and easier, which if you’re like me makes you spend more money and upgrade more frequently.
Personally, I’d like a framework with a dGPU option. Nothing big like an RTX 4 series, but just something more than the onboard UHD 630.Hey, what do you know, there’s an option for a detachable graphics module, hell yeah.
You could either sell the old mainboard or turn it in to a server imo or if you’re really hardware knowledgable take up the challenge of making a discount lenovo yoga book 9i
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In theory, you’re paying up front for their long-term loss by not driving conspicuous consumption with planned obsolescence. They lose out on at least 4x the cost of selling you entirely new devices every 5 years, and you get a computer that only requires a few hundred in repairs for the next 20 years.
In reality:
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new standards take hold all the time. Sorry, your laptop takes DDR7 RAM, everyone’s moved on to DDR10—which won’t cause a noticeable performance improvement, but it will give you FOMO because the numbers are bigger. So we’ve ceased manufacturing those old DDR7s; good luck with used DIMMs on ebay.
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Startups with amazing business models go under all the time. Sure, it may be “bad market strategy,” aka not being money-grubbing scrooges, and the resultant investor pull-out. It might be a lack of hype outside a niche market. It might be a hurricane. Too bad, ypur “lifetime” computer now has no one manufacturing parts. See also: what happens to early adopters of robotic prosthetics.
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Enshittification, plain and simple. That idealistic company that was going to defeat the ills of capitalism by beating it at its own game? Well now the investors want their money, and the shareholders are upset as their stocks plummet. Time to start cutting costs and fucking over the users! Suddenly we’re okay with child slavery and nonfree firmware because it doesn’t violate our core value of sustainable laptops probably. Have a subscription about it.
And the longer it lasts, the more likely one or more of the above is to happen.
If you don’t mind that and just want to “send a message,” then go ahead. The more viable (profitable) Framework is, the more likely it is others will follow suit.
If you’re really just worried about e-waste and sustainable tech, buy used and fix it up. We’re past the point of Moore’s law where you’re missing out on meaningful performance gains if your device is a few years old, and have you see what people will throw away just because the screen is cracked?
If it’s about ethical business models, support non-profits. They don’t have the same financial incentive to enshittify. (They just have their own ecosystem of ethical issues)
Or get two birds stoned at once by joining/starting a non-profit tech mutual aid network, where you help maintain and upgrade each others’ tech.
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apple software locks?
Some parts are now signed and can be associated to the device by Apple alone, so that third-party repair parts or even replaced official parts don’t work if the repair is not done by Apple.
oh god thats fucking evil, i thought uou meant some proproetary screw or some shit
They’ve done that one too. The software locks are just the most recent iteration.
If you’d like to see a demonstration, watch this video on last gen iPhone: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2WhU77ihw8
I’m an Offical Apple phone repair tech. A lot of things stop working once you place new parts in, things that have even thrown me for a loop and made me think I did the repair wrong. I replaced a display, and the vibration and camera stopped working properly. I thought I damaged the haptic feedback motor (That I didn’t even remove) You have to sign into apple’s repair website, and ‘run a diagnostic’ in order to get the vibration function to work again after you swap a part on some models. They all do some weird shit.
Sometimes swapping a camera on a model will cause the camera in app to run at like 3 fps or Face ID will stop working until you validate the parts on their repair site. It’s shit.
i was planning on getting a new laptop cheaply for about 500ish
You should plan for what you need, not for what you’re willing to pay. If you need a mobile workstation then this 16 inch laptop would be too large and heavy. If you aim for a desktop replacement, then a 13 inch laptop might be too small (docking stations exist, but still …).
The Framework laptop is a nice idea, though. But to be honest: how often did you change the components of your laptops before? One usually changes the SSD and maybe the RAM or the battery or - if you’re really adventurous - the heatpipe and/or the fan. All of this is already possible with most common laptops. If you’re unsure, get a ThinkPad.
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Thought the same thing. Over time I replaced everything in my laptop that I could and specifically chose a laptop that is easyish to open and get parts for.
I would love for a better processor and graphics card but the mainboard and power supply does not allow for better hardware. So I will need to buy a different laptop some day. If it were as easy as ordering new parts and putting it in there without fear of incompatibility I would love that.
I’ve changed the screen of a thinkpad from 720p to 1080p. Was cheaper to buy that way, and it was really easy to do.
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It goes a bit further than that. When the CPU is too old and slow you can just slap in a newer board without having to buy a full machine. Still can’t answer if it’s worth it for OP though.
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Yep. When the devices get older, I usually upgrade RAM (or install an SSD on very old hardware). Sometimes I even install a new battery.
And that’s the thing: I never ever had any issues doing this. Even the internal battery is just screwed in and connected with a removable plug.
While the Framework laptops are conceptually great, I just don’t see the use case in my world. It’s also pretty much vendor lock-in with the modules.
For me the deal breaker is to wait for so long before getting it. They have to step up the production. I’m fine with waiting for one month and can understand. But, the actual waiting time is ridiculous.
I suppose that depends on how urgently you need a new computer. I waited several weeks for one of the first releases, but have been using it the last two years and it has been well worth it. I accidentally smashed the case when it slipped out of my bag on concrete and was thankful I got a framework when I was just able to swap it with a new shell of their marketplace within a week
As I wrote, one month is fine. If it’s one or two weeks more, it’s ok. But, the actual waiting time is 6 months.
I get the enthousiast, niche, etc. I’m in niche things too. But, at a certain moment, you need to step up.
The waiting time heavily depends on whether you want Intel or Ryzen, and whether you want 13 or 16 inch.
13 inch Intel should ship pretty much instant even now as far as I know, the just released Ryzen now has to catch up with pre-orders first, and 16" isn’t yet released AFAIK.
I bought a refurbished 11th gen Intel back in March and that got here in just a few days and I can’t say anything about it didn’t feel brand new. Have been using it almost daily since.
I’m interested in a framework laptop for the environmental perspective, but I also think a pre-owned high end device would be faster and with smaller impact.
This question comes up for me quite a bit. It’s great that project like this exist, but if the project fails, does the environmental impact of the parts become just as bad as any other electronic device because there’s no longer a project coordinating the manufacturing of replacement parts?
Additionally, refurbished Lenovo Thinkpads, while obviously not nearly as customizable/modifiable, may (emphasis on may) have a longer shelf life due to build quality (as well as general care and maintenance by the user), and are probably easily repairable by hardware repair shops.
Environmental Impact, Longevity, and Cost should be the major priorities for the conscientious discerning tech consumer, and imho in that specific order.
In my opinion, the Framework laptop is great for people who want the newest and fastest CPUs, whule also getting the customizability and repairability. I mean yeah, I’d buy an older Thinkpad, but programming in C doesn’t require much compute power or RAM. However, my graphic design and video editor friends won’t make a living using the same machine as I do. For them, the Framework is miles better than any other brand new machine with the same specs (if they want repairability, etc.).
The environmental impact of the parts is already just as bad as any other laptop.
Pollution happens at the point of production!
If a person were worried about the environmental impact, a glass and aluminum mac would be the better choice. Replacing a bunch of plastic with easily and efficiently recyclable metal and glass has a huge impact.
You can look online at what the upgrade parts cost. If you were upgrading to the AMD main board you’re looking at $450-$700, versus $1200-1550 buying it new. The Intel i5 components are similar but i7 are a bit more expensive. Thus far they have been consistent about releasing upgraded components. You are locked in to buying from them though - so if they stop releasing upgrades you’re out of luck.
If you don’t need the latest and greatest, going used is going to still be a better value proposition.
It can be a long term investment in the same way a car is a long term investment - you can tune it up over the long term to extend it’s life but at a certain point you’ll likely have to replace some key components. The theory is that the cost of those repairs will be less than buying a whole new laptop though.
For me, it’s looking to be a good choice. I enjoy hardware hacking/tinkering so, the 16 inch is going to be a great platform for me to tinker on (planning to extend the hinges and put a bunch of fun stuff on the top/kb area.
No.
For it to be a good investment it’s value would have to go up over time or drop at a slower rate than other comparable things.
A mac is a better investment (but still not “good”) not only because they tend to hold more value over time but the used market has higher volume so there’s less chance you need to price it low or wait a long time when you’re ready to sell.
If you’re worried about the value of being able to fix it, spend less than your $500 budget on a used t480 with the processor you want, upgrade the ram to 16, 32 or 64gb, install at least one ssd and be glad that there are literally millions of inexpensive spare parts on the market and will be for at least a decade.
What framework does uniquely offer is the ability to change your complement of ports. That’s either a useless novelty or a powerful tool depending entirely upon weather you consistently swap them out and can find all the ports you need as expansions or not.
Is it worth it to not be carrying around some dongle? I don’t know.
E: the processor to get on that t480 is one of the intels.
I’ve been happy with mine for a while. I’ve had some minor hiccups, but I blame myself for those because I choose to run arch on the thing. The swappable ports are a game changer for me, but that depends on the user.
When I bought it I didn’t need a powerful laptop, but I may in a few years, so it made more sense to buy something for a bit more upfront. The upgradable mainboard is a crazy value add.
I’ve also been the unfortunate owner of multiple laptops that became unusable because of a broken part that was impossible to source for replacement.
For me it’s the only laptop that might entice me from leaving “the dark side” (Apple).
Would then install some Linux distro on it though.
This is my case. I’d been apple only until framework and now I’m so glad I transitioned a couple years ago when it came out. Now I’m stoked cause instead of buying a whole new laptop I get to upgrade it with a new amd mainboard
Hi. If you want to look for a new laptop, you can also try out Tuxedo laptops: https://www.tuxedocomputers.com/en/Linux-Hardware/Linux-Notebooks/Alle.tuxedo
Their laptops are a bit cheaper and also repairable, starting from 850 EUR (8GB RAM, no Win license, etc.) They assemble laptops, you specify components to your needs.
I’m a happy owner of Tuxedo InfinityBook 15. The most important is that they use normal generic power supply (not some proprietary one that is hard to replace) with an ability to charge from 65+W USB-C connector. Battery preservation bypass mode is also possible in BIOS settings. Their keyboards are also high-quality, replaceable and can have a custom layout. The screen is also high-quality. Initial setup is easy af. They maintain their own distro, which is quite good on its own, but the hardware is also Win-compatible. They also provide 5% discount for students.
(note: not sponsored)
I seriously looked at them, but in the end, it was too expensive, especially over last years’ models on sale- which were also very repairable. Not quite as much, but damn close, and with a dedicated GPU and better IO.
I like what they are doing, but they aren’t quite there yet. The best long term investment IMO is a PC, since it can be easily upgraded independent of any one company. And the parts are much easier to trade, resell, etc.
Since no one asked… What are your use cases? Do you need a discrete GPU? Something lite? Something with lots of ports?
If you can afford it easily and used 500 bucks as a random number sure no problem, but othewise I don’t think it a Framework is a good idea.
Is it really more modular than a ThinkPad or even professional Dell? I have an old Dell and finding replacement keyboard for it on ebay was cheap and easy. Same with battery. Changing keybaord/cpu/RAM is super easy, you can do it yourself. Bonus is that parts will be available for a very long time, there are many providers and surplus stock. Framework is nice but can you really be sure that in 5 years you will still be able to find parts easily?
Good luck putting a new i7 into your 7 year old Dell.
I don’t get your point. Isn’t it obvious that you should be comparing 7 year old Dell to 7 years old framework laptop and new Dell to new framework? What does you comparing old Dell to new framework prove?
Because the entire point of framework is that in 7 years you can keep everything and swap a new mainboard in.
Upgrading your 7 year old laptop with a 0 year old processor.
that’s the entire point of a framework laptop
With Dell you also run the risk of inadvertently buying sodimm machines that can’t even be upgraded (like the XPS 13).
You can’t buy a framework that can’t be upgraded.
Ok, that’s interesting. I guess the only thing is that there are no 7 years old framework laptops. But if the company actually survives 7 years I agree it will be a more upgradable laptop.
