For the last few years franchise movies like star wars, marvel, etc. made money regardless of quality. However now it seems like audiences are being choosier when it comes to these kinds of tentpole releases. I’ve seen some people online say that the movie/theater industry is losing people in general but I don’t think that’s the case.
Super Mario and spiderverse made a lot of money. And Oppenheimer, Barbie, and Dune seem to be tracking well. I think the problem is that people are getting sick of the same old stuff and need more than just a brand name to go to the theater. What do you you think?
It’s not superhero fatigue or franchise fatigue. It’s bad writing fatigue. Seriously, I don’t know why Hollywood keeps choosing terrible writers for huge projects, but as long as they are doing that they are going to keep getting what they deserve.
And speaking of huge projects, from what I’ve heard Indiana Jones and the Dial of Destiny cost $295 million to make rather than 250. And that’s not counting publicity and marketing, which brings it to 400 million if not more. That means they need to make at least $800 million to break even. No matter how you slice their opening weekend, they are in huge trouble. And given that Elementals and The Little Mermaid both bombed hard along with most other Disney movies of the last few years, I’d say that Disney is in serious trouble too!
On the other hand, Guardians of the Galaxy 3 was rather well written, and from what I’ve heard it did rather well at the box office. Which is just more evidence that if you have a decently-written film the public WILL go and see it. We’re just avoiding crap, that’s all.
I’ll go out on a limb and say that hauling poor old Harrison Ford away from his bong and forcing him at the age of 80 to make shitty movies is tantamount to elder abuse. As for The Flash, coddling wannabe cult leader and mental defective Ezra Miller was just the icing on the cake. The movie was just badly written.
Frantic last minute reshoots and rewrites are a dead giveaway that something is seriously wrong with a production. But that that is happening so often in Hollywood in the last several years is clear evidence that Hollywood itself has completely lost their way. I don’t know if they can right that ship, and to be honest I don’t much care. If they won’t provide people with the good entertainment that they want, eventually somewhere else will. Maybe Bollywood or China.
As someone in the industry, the tentpole execs do not give a shit about writing or even quality. They just imagine $$$ and hate risk, so they double down on what they already know. It’s a dumb decision from the outside looking in, but they literally can’t see that. Also, in the last 10-15 years, screenwriting has developed more into a gig economy than a FT job, so even finding good writers and keeping them around is tough as hell.
And they wonder why the writers are on strike. The writers are the backbone of the industry. Its a business of storytelling and without them there arent stories to tell.
Sometimes, I think I understand their place too. We’re talking about really big budgets here, and while I agree that it’s better to take risks so we can get amazing movies, I must imagine the dread the exec that greenlighted taika waititi thor love and thunder to do w/e he wanted.
In the end they let the director loose and still got a mediocre movie. (Maybe it was $$ successful? Somebody know?)
Speak for yourself. I’ve been majorly burned out on super hero movies.
I think Avengers Endgame was the pinnacle. They achieved a beautiful new phenomenon because they did it slow, as an experiment, with only the best people at the helms.
Then Disney was like okay, now let’s milk it dry.
Happens to everything that gets taken over by the big suits.
I could take the MCU from Iron Man to Endgame and call it one giant success. And a great one. After that everything started to feel like pandering and cash grabbing.
- Rikudou_Sage ( @rikudou@lemmings.world ) English6•1 year ago
As for The Flash, coddling wannabe cult leader and mental defective Ezra Miller was just the icing on the cake.
Hey, let me keep believing that it’s because people for once decided to be decent and skip it because of Ezra.
Seriously, I don’t know why Hollywood keeps choosing terrible writers for huge projects
Don’t worry, soon Hollywood won’t be choosing writers at all. (Thanks ChatGPT!)
(Obviously I agree that good writing is fundamental to the success of a movie, with few exceptions.)
which brings it to 400 million if not more. That means they need to make at least $800 million to break even.
400 million spent means 400 million to break even, no?
Presumably 800 gross
The rumors for indy 5 were that it needed something like 900 million to break even and a billion to make any profit.
With the new report saying it was a 325 million production and a minimum 100 million promotion budget, I tend to believe them.
If anyone is surprised by Indiana Jones failing then that is just sad. Name the last good Harrison Ford movie, I’ll wait. Erza Miller was suppose to be a good pick for the younger generation but Warner Brothers forgot that the younger generation doesn’t respond well to groomers and they also use TikTok. Word got out on him.
Black Adam, how many times can you watch the rock play the same character over and over. Fast X, no words needed.
Bad writers would be the main reason for failing films. Too many times you see 5-6 writers on a project, dead give away that it’s going to suck. Studios also like to play the blame game for bad decisions. Why didn’t anyone see the female led ghost busters? Sexism not the fact that the movie was unfunny and a train wreck.
A24 is one of the few studios that produce new and exciting movies. Something original. Even if it is something that has been done, they have a unique perspective, see parasite. Their movies always seem to over perform.
- Rikudou_Sage ( @rikudou@lemmings.world ) English28•1 year ago
Slightly off-topic, but didn’t they claim something along the lines of “people will ignore that Ezra is a total piece of shit because of how great the movie is”?
Wow, you got me to Google the guy. I was expecting a bad incident or two, but the list just goes on and on.
He’s mentally ill there’s no doubt about that. But it makes for good sensationalism so social media loves to just celebrate it.
WB was hyping it up like it was the greatest superhero film ever made. I’ve actually seen the movie and can assure you it is far from it. The whole thing felt like an inside joke from WB.
Oh wow, you weren’t kidding. Not someone you’d want to be around for any length of time.
Could this be the beginning of the end for franchise films?
We can only hope.
‘The Flash’ and Other Mediocre Movies Won’t Stop Superhero Fatigue - Variety. Fifteen years (since Iron Man), for the love of Stan! As Scorsese said, “…that’s not cinema…the closest I can think of them…is theme parks.”
Fun fact: did you know that the (then) new distribution strategy invented for the iconic film The Godfather gave rise of the Blockbuster (and thus “franchise movies”) and the near-death of auteur cinema?
@kingmongoose7877 Of course Scorsese’s mastery, knowledge and love of movies is matched by few and surpassed by none. But I do find it amusing that the he criticises lowbrow superhero genre movies when every third film he makes has a bunch of Irish or Italian guys telling each other to fuhgeddaboudit, then shooting each other in the head. (Yes, I’m exaggerating, but not by that much.)
My point? There are bad, mediocre and good superhero movies, just as there are bad, mediocre and good gangster movies. And every so often there are great genre movies, like The Godfather, or - for my money - Logan (which I think deserved Oscar nominations for picture, director, adapted screenplay, actor, supporting actor and supporting actress).
And, basically, you just need a lot of movies to be made before a masterpiece is produced. For how many decades were westerns a popular genre? Were directors complaining about the guns’n’horses theme parks in the 1950s? Most westerns that were made over that time have been forgotten, but the great ones like Shane or Unforgiven live on. In fifty years most superheroes will have been forgotten, but a handful will live on.
To address @chickenwing 's post more directly: I remember reading articles a few years ago about how the age of the movie star was dead (Tom Cruise being cited as one of a few exceptions), and that the age of the franchise/brand (Marvel, Star Wars, Pixar) had arrived. If the age of the franchise is dying, what will rise to take its place?
My hope is that like in the 70’s American New Wave the studios panic and start doing weird experimental stuff with young directors. That’s where a lot of the big name directors came from today. Back then US directors copied what the French were doing and it got people back in theaters. If I were a director I’d look at South Korean films there has been a ton of great films come out of there in the last 20 years or so.
@chickenwing Interestingly, one of the things I respect the execs behind the MCU for (Feige I suppose, although even those behind some of the very early decisions before the rise of Feige) is that they have a history of hiring relatively “indie” directors.
Starting with Jon Favreau, then Joss Whedon, the Russos, James Gunn, Peyton Reed, Taika Waititi, Ryan Coogler, Cate Shortland, Destin Daniel Cretton and Chloé Zhao and others I’m probably forgetting. These are not the sort of names you would have expected to head $100M-$250M popcorn movies with their prior experience mostly being in smaller budget movies and/or TV work. It would have been an understandable decision to hire directors with a more proven big budget epic track record, a “safe pair of hands” (ala Ron Howard who replaced Lord & Miller on Solo because they were seen to be too quirky for Lucasfilm).
Yes you could argue that Marvel homogenises their styles with a “house” look & feel wrt to cinematography, soundtrack, action scenes etc, but nevertheless, the sensibility these directors is generally infused into even their big budget MCU films. And, I’d argue, that accounts for some of their commercial success.
the studios panic and start doing weird experimental stuff with young directors.
I wonder if this is possible given the changes in distribution channel over the years. One of the reasons why theatrical releases are dominated by big-budget four-quadrant movies is because smaller, weirder stuff by younger film makers gets released on streaming. Going to the movies is starting to become expensive. Where I live (not in the US) a movie typically costs $20-$30, and premium formats (eg imax or luxurious seating, table service for food & drink etc) can run up to $50 just for the movie ticket. I’m more likely to see a movie that benefits from an enormous screen and enormous sound (ie “theme park rides”) at the movies, because I know I can get 90% of the experience of a smaller film at home at a fraction of the cost, and a fraction of the annoyance (given the inconsiderate behaviour of many people who go to see a movie these days).
I’d look at South Korean films there has been a ton of great films come out of there in the last 20 years or so.
True. Although, based on the ones I’ve seen (basically the well known Korean films and TV shows), they’re generally pretty full-on wrt violence, language and general tone. Not a bad thing by itself (I like dark and gritty), but this sensibility could limit the mainstream success of a movement inspired by South Korean films.
Speaking of foreign films and superhero franchises - I’d love to see the team behind RRR tackle a Marvel or DC movie.
- Rikudou_Sage ( @rikudou@lemmings.world ) English2•1 year ago
If the age of the franchise is dying, what will rise to take its place?
The age of good writing! Or am I too optimistic?
…when every third film he makes has a bunch of…
…there are great genre movies, like The Godfather, or - for my money - Logan (which I think deserved Oscar nominations…
See, right there that makes me question your ability to discern the difference between gummy bears and filet mignon or, like my post here, pop art and highway billboards. The Godfather and Logan in the same sentence? Really?
@kingmongoose7877 Yup. Really. Objectively in terms of craft The Godfather probably is a bit better (note that I said Logan deserved to be nominated for a bunch of Oscars), but personally of the two I prefer Logan. And yes I put them in the same sentence. Deal with it.
Dealt with, many many times before you came along. And like the others, you will remain with me for as long as it takes to write this reply. I’ll keep separating the pearls from the dreck and you keep enjoying movies about muscular men with claws.
Every time a sequel or a comic book movie lands on its face, someone rewrites an article about franchise/superhero fatigue. And that’s been going on for over a decade.
People will show up to watch a good movie. Guardians 3 did really well. Spider-Man is the “same old stuff.” This is all cherry picking examples. Movies don’t do well when they’re bad or the star is unappealing somehow.
Hollywood will stop making these movies when people stop paying to see them.
I think Guardians 3 and Spiderverse may be exceptions though. Spiderverse has a cool visual style that makes it stand out and is riding of the goodwill of the last film. Guardians 3 is the last guardians film and I’ve seen a lot of people say it was the last marvel film they were interested in. I think audiences might need more motivation than just a marvel logo now. Captain Marvel got over a billion dollars while marvel was on the hype train but I doubt the sequel does that well.
Maybe Film studios should make more effort on lower budget movies instead of reviving old franchises and making commercial movies (Air, Blackberry, Barbie, Mario, etc).
I don’t think it has anything to do with being franchise films. Studios just need to make good films and people will see them.
Spider-Man made 600m WW so far which isn’t too shabby. That has to contend with superhero fatigue as well as franchise fatigue.
I think the audience is simply being smarter with their money. A bunch of recent franchise movies have missed the mark and the audience is saying as much.
Super Mario
Dune
Across the SpiderverseAll franchises. But they have so far given their target audience what they’ve wanted.
Why go see Flash when it’ll show up on Max (or whatever) same with Indiana Jones which will be in Disney+ soon enough.
For me it’s that people have gotten worse. I love going to the movies but people always talk during movies or go on their phones, and rather than pay 10-20 bucks to be around rude people I can just stay home and watch it.
It’s annoying that some people are so small-minded that they only think one style of filmmaking counts as “real cinema”. Just like there are different genres of film (like comedy, horror, drama, etc.), there’s room for different styles of film as well.
Too many people seem to think that just because two things can be projected on a screen, it’s reasonable to compare them. Some also believe that one kind of film is objectively better than another.
No. Neither of those things are true.
Films provide room for a wide range of creativity, whether they’re loud, big-budget extravaganzas with broad appeal, or quiet, intimate, narrowly focused films intended for a smaller audience - or something in between.
I don’t understand why there’s even an argument about which type of film is best. If you’re like me, you enjoy several different things, depending on your mood.
I think the issue is mostly about what is art?
Some of the big budget movies feel devoid of creativity and are more a product than a work of art. While I do agree with you that there is some art in those big budget, I think the issue lies in how we communicate a movie.
What is a “good” movie? That’s entirely subjective! A better approach would be to explain what you liked (or disliked) about it. Then we can have more productive conversations about it ahah
Maybe, I honestly love going to the movies but it seems the age of the generic blockbuster is done really. It’s nearly all sequels or franchises. I want to wathc something not particulary groundbreaking but still interesting and not need to watch it’s five previous movies.
The last movie I felt scratched that itch for me was the DnD movie which was relatively detached. I like movies like that and I wish there were more. Don’t get me wrong I like a good franchise but when everything is a franchise it’s maddening.
Indy is failing not because it’s a franchise, but because the audience for an 80 year old Harrison Ford is not going to the theater.
Flash failed for reasons other than it being part of a franchise. It failed because that franchise is not well liked, and in fact is in the process of being replaced.
Also, Ezra Miller is apparently a giant dick bag, turning off audiences.
I expect Blue Beetle will do worse due to featuring a character 90% of the movie going audience is unaware of, based on characters 99.9% are unaware of. At best people will go “So it’s an Iron Man / Spider-Man ripoff?”
Aquaman is the last of this generation of DC movies, hard to tell how it will turn out. The first one was the ONLY ONE of the DC films to hit the big $Billion mark.
Man of Steel - $668M
https://www.boxofficemojo.com/title/tt0770828/?ref_=bo_se_r_1Batman V Superman - $873M
https://www.boxofficemojo.com/title/tt2975590/?ref_=bo_se_r_1Suicide Squad - $746M
https://www.boxofficemojo.com/title/tt1386697/?ref_=bo_se_r_1Wonder Woman - $822M
https://www.boxofficemojo.com/title/tt0451279/?ref_=bo_se_r_1Justice League - $657M
https://www.boxofficemojo.com/title/tt0974015/?ref_=bo_se_r_1Aquaman - $1.148B
https://www.boxofficemojo.com/title/tt1477834/?ref_=bo_se_r_1Shazam - $367M
https://www.boxofficemojo.com/title/tt0448115/?ref_=bo_se_r_1Birds of Prey - $205M
https://www.boxofficemojo.com/title/tt7713068/?ref_=bo_se_r_1Wonder Woman 1984 - $169M
https://www.boxofficemojo.com/title/tt7126948/?ref_=bo_se_r_2The Suicide Squad - $168M
https://www.boxofficemojo.com/title/tt6334354/?ref_=bo_se_r_1Black Adam - $393M
https://www.boxofficemojo.com/title/tt6443346/?ref_=bo_se_r_1Shazam: Fury of the Gods - $133M
https://www.boxofficemojo.com/title/tt10151854/?ref_=bo_se_r_2The Flash - $245M and counting:
https://www.boxofficemojo.com/title/tt0439572/?ref_=bo_se_r_1Edit I should say, both Birds of Prey and the Suicide Squad deserved better. Victims of covid and day/date streaming.
WW84 can die in a fire though.
Fair point about DC and Indy but Disney has had a few flops recently as well. Pixar isn’t a franchise but it was definitely a brand that normally would bring people to the theaters with just the name alone. Now they are struggling to get people to come to the theaters.
Oh, definitely. In my mind Pixar hasn’t had a really good movie since Coco.
Yeah Pixar was absolute magic until around then. Hey, it had to end sometime.
This phenomenon is due to many different issues, but in my opinion they can all be boiled down to: making a great movie is not the priority anymore. Sometimes it’s selling the product, sometimes it’s playing to special political interests (lookin at you, Eternals), etc. for better or worse; but when a film is made for the purpose first and foremost to make a great film, it usually succeeds. Maybe not the flamboyant numbers that some do, but then again for every one that a studio makes a killing on, they also take a bath on a handful of others.
They’re looking at the industry and just seeing a sponge with dollar signs and just want to squeeze as hard as they can.
Do yourself a favor watch more independent films. They’re not always amazing but they are made with heart.
I think Ezra Miller is a great actor, but in small indie films, where he can act the problematic individual he’s outside the screen. Whorever decided to cast him off for big budget summer blockbusters should be fired.
They actually did a decent job in the Flash. It’s tricky playing an 18/19 year old version of the main adult character on screen at the same time.
Well, in their defense, The Flash was first filmed way before he got super problematic iirc.
I also thought it wasn’t too bad, but I seem to be in the minority apparently lol. My biggest complaint is some moments of bad CGI.
i would love to see revivals of old franchises go the way of the dodo. i am as nostalgic as any millennial but if i want to see indiana jones or ghostbusters or whatever, i’ll just watch the originals.
i don’t think the superhero franchises are going anywhere, unfortunately. they are still reliable, even with some people losing interest over time. it seems like a good moneymaking bet for disney at least. and all the studios seem really risk-averse lately, more than they used to be.
I’d more interested in MCU stuff if they tried something new with them. It’s why guardians as a franchise did so well. The cracks really started showing id argue with captain marvel.
I’m just bored of superheroes in general, I think. I watched up to the first Avengers movie as they came out, and kind of lost interest after that. GotG was fun, and I liked the first Black Panther. Loved Thor: Ragnarok. There’s just probably a limit to how much someone can do with that set of concepts without getting repetitive.
It’s more to me because of the studios interfering. Its worse with wb and DC but like cause it’s a overarching universe each individual projects suffers creatively because of it.
I haven’t bothered with DC movies since Wonder Woman (2017). It was an OK movie, and then I stepped outside and forgot about it. So I can’t speak to how bad those movies are, haha. With Marvel, I do think the quality is good, it’s just that I’m not interested anymore. I have a hard time understanding how anyone is still excited after 15 continuous years of the same stuff.
There are only two good indy movies and that’s raiders and the last crusade.
Anything else was crap and crap Indiana Jones movies are nothing new.
Dune and so on are objectively good movies even though they play the hobbit tactic with dune releasing only half the book.
Why people like avengers and marvel and these movies I have no idea. Only a select few of these movies are watchable.
I felt compelled to reply, don’t really know why but here it goes:
“There are only two good indy movies and that’s raiders and the last crusade.”
Temple of Doom also has it’s charm, many of the most iconic Indy moments, beautiful cinematography and boldness to do things differently. It’s the weakest of the original trilogy but also the most interesting one to watch.
“Anything else was crap and crap Indiana Jones movies are nothing new.”
Yeah the two new ones are kinda crap. It’s an interesting duo as the Dial of Destiny is technically a better movie of the two but at the same time it’s the most indifferent and forgettable. Crystal Skull was crap but at least it had some original ideas and fit the original concept of rejuvenating the style of pulp/adventure literature of the era it’s set in. DoD was mostly a collection of recycled cliches and unnecessary cameos with few interesting ideas that were forgotten after being presented.
“Dune and so on are objectively good movies even though they play the hobbit tactic with dune releasing only half the book.”
True, Dune was great. But knowing the source material I am happy they chose to film it in parts. I actually think it could have been a trilogy.as there is so much going on in the original book.
“Why people like avengers and marvel and these movies I have no idea. Only a select few of these movies are watchable.”
That’s one of the great mysteries of life. Although it probably helps that they were a pop culture phenomenon even before the movies 🙂
No, Indiana Jones is a terrible example to base those on. It’s a franchise who’s last good film was in the 80s and most people hated the last attempted comeback.
You’re making the assumption that, since the pandemic ended, people actually want to go to the theater to see movies. They demonstrably do not. People will not go to see a movie they’re interested in in the theater; they will only go to the theater to see a movie they are absolutely driven to see immediately. It has to have huge visual spectacle and be truly worthy of their time to waste the time and money to sit in a theater, which no one seems to want to do anymore. It has to be something that needs to be seen on a large screen.
I’m sure Dune will do well later this year and there’s been plenty of movies recently that did fine in theaters. But there’s going to be plenty more along the way that fall by the wayside despite the fact that they would have been tent pole pictures with guaranteed box office in past years. But people aren’t going to show up for things like Indiana Jones or Flash after major failures previously in both of those series.
- Rikudou_Sage ( @rikudou@lemmings.world ) English6•1 year ago
I’m so excited for Dune, definitely going to the cinema.
I don’t think people are sick of the same old stuff. Indy flopped at the box office on the combination of a disappointing 4th movie and Disney’s trend of virtue signalling over good characterization and storytelling.
The Flash has the baggage of an unlikeable lead actor, plus the DCU is still all over the place and constantly rebooted. I honestly have no idea what to expect from the Flash, given previous DCU movies.
Someone who says virtue signaling unironically is the dumbest fuck in the room, no matter what room they’re in.
Wait, is having a woman in the movie virtue signaling? I haven’t seen it to know.
There are only two genders: male and political.