Your favorite game’s “awesome story” merely goes through the motions when portraying conflict
The protagonist mulls over destroying the food supply of an entire town to gain some strategic advantage. The team pipes in: “Are we really doing this?”, Alice asks; “I guess there is no other way,” Bob sighs, and that’s that. Once the deed is done the town mayor’s elite guard chases the team and shouts: “You will pay for this!”. The chase sequence is over. Total casualties: twenty people, and seventy thousand more in a month or so. The incident is brought up exactly once later in the game, where Alice notes that “we maybe overdid it blowing up that food supply”. The game is full of this kind of stuff, and is hailed as “exciting” and “eventful”.
Your favorite game’s “awesome story” is carried by an episodic plot
This is a flaw so old and so pervasive that Aristotle complained about it: just one thing after the other. Oh no, we’ve got to hit the road! Oh no, the chariot broke. Need to get spare parts. Oh no, the nearby village is full of killer robots… Oh no, the killer robot repellent stocks are in the next village over… Oh no, the people of the next village over are starving and hostile… Oh no, all the emergency food rations have been claimed by bandits, and the bandit leader refuses to negotiate on account of the roadblock to the southeast, etc, etc, etc…
Now of course this is less of a problem if the audience is at least forced to concede “wow, that was some experience dealing with the chariot breakage”, “wow, that was some experience getting the spare parts”, “wow, that was some experience dealing with the killer robots”. But in practice stories are often built this way in a futile effort to achieve a magic gestalt effect where a sequence of forgettable episodes is somehow more than the sum of its parts.
Your favorite game’s “awesome story” is one of those pieces of ‘environmental storytelling’
Imagine a person who claims that in terms of pure gameplay mechanics, walking simulators are generally superior to soulslikes. They explain that it’s exactly the fact that walking simulators do not involve strategic decision making, hair-trigger reaction times, or skill with controller input, that makes them typically such a master class in mechanical design. Because you see, these things are all crutches, and the superior philosophy is for the game mechanics to engage with the player without relying on these crutches, as the typical walking simulator does.
This is what it sounds like to me when someone extols the virtues of the “amazing story” in a game where none of the characters have friends, families, conversations, goals, fears, or first names. At that point you’re way past “less is more”, you’re practicing narrative homeopathy. I’ll grant maybe the game is a compelling piece of art, and that’s something different.
Your favorite game’s “awesome story” robs the player of a basic sense of agency
It is generally not awesome for the player character to join a cult, agree to assassinate their boss’s boss, cheat on their life partner, pick a side in a major power struggle, voluntarily inject themselves with an experimental nano-fluid, etc, without the player’s consent.
Your favorite game’s “awesome story” is a 5-hour affair fit into 50 hours
Half a book page’s worth of plot. 4 sidequests, 10 errands, 80 points of interest, 3 broken bridges, 2 days of real time. Half a book page’s worth of plot. Repeat.
Your favorite game’s “awesome story” falls apart the moment you try to put yourself in any character’s shoes and consider their supposed motives and means
There isn’t a dull moment: backup plans are revealed, friendships are made and ruined, alliances are brokered and broken, bold gambits are attempted and thwarted. But wait, didn’t Alice swear to destroy her father’s company? So why did she agree to call in a favor with that elite mercenary unit last mission, when we decided to run a crucial errand that helped stabilize the same company? And where were these mercenaries back in mission 1 the moment things went south and we were surrounded by 30 armed bad guys? Also, isn’t this the third time already that Eve’s changed her allegiance? At this point the Nutella conspiracy that she is orchestrating goes, what, four levels deep, and she has been able to act perfectly and maintain the deception for each level so far until revealing the next?.. “We will bypass the front security using this special security-bypasser that I have assembled for this mission”, says Qarxas the alien; this useful contraption has never been brought up before, and will never be brought up again. See also: mind control, parallel universes, get-out-of-death-free cards and time travel. Of this, H. G. Wells famously said: “If anything is possible, nothing is interesting”.
Your favorite game’s “awesome story” at its core has, let’s be tactful and say a pathological fixation on things as opposed to people
The story’s central conflict is fundamentally and entirely about the nuke and the facility and the energy field and the virus and the organization and the protocol etc etc. The people are set pieces; at best they get to momentarily be people while caught up in all the above, at worst not even that.
For some reason sequels are extra eager to walk into this trap, thinking the energy field and the virus are what made the original so compelling, so this time let’s have the story revolve around 3 energy fields and 8 viruses. Actually what made the original so compelling was the distraught scientist who worked herself half to death on a vaccine and got all the players to root for her because hey this is just like that time they pulled 3 all nighters in a row on that project. Unfortunately the sequel kills her two minutes into the intro, so as to establish that virus #6 is not fucking around and everyone is in really serious danger this time.
Your favorite game’s “awesome story” is just a bunch of jerks speaking in riddles over and over
Come, friend; it’s time that all questions be finally answered, and all mice go back to their holes, and the mighty be brought low. Or were we ever friends at all? Are you going to surrender to these doubts or push through, like a mother pushes through when she gives the gift of life? Can we break free of the past? Can we forge a future? Have you stopped to consider whether we should? What price are you willing to pay to make that happen? Can you tell the difference between good and evil? Truth and fabrication? Competent prose and whatever the hell this is?
Edit: Christ almighty where’s the “disable inbox replies” button on this thing
- shapesandstuff ( @shapesandstuff@feddit.de ) English105•1 year ago
I feel like it would’ve made sense to include some real examples. Otherwise this just reads very… made up? :'D
Not sure how to explain, but the simplistic nature of the stories you use as examples make the whole text feel a bit like an angry strawman argument even though it probably makes some good points.
- keeyes ( @keeyes@lemmy.blahaj.zone ) English42•1 year ago
yeah it’s kind of a weird post with the way it’s all worded. framing it in a “why what you like is wrong” way probably hurts it more than anything. it doesn’t invite discussion and is more or less just a ranting if you’re not giving examples.
it’s not like anyone here is trying to force someone to like the same games they do and the first thought I had after reading was “okay…”
Personally I like all sorts of storytelling as long as it’s involving topics/genres I’m interested. Lovecraftian setting? inject it into my veins. stories about realistic depictions of depression and suicide - sign me up. There’s not a singular formula that all my favorite games need to adhere to - why would anyone want all their story structures to be so rigid and similar?
Anyways one of my favorite games, probably my overall favorite, is Control. It does a lot of ‘show, don’t tell’ while also having an incredible amount of world building there for you to engage with if you’re interested. The setting is like they tailor-made this for my interests. So pumped for the other games coming out in that universe
- shapesandstuff ( @shapesandstuff@feddit.de ) English5•1 year ago
i hear good things about control. i completely dismissed it when i first saw marketing material because of how generic it looked :'D i’ll have to dig into it again
- azureeight ( @azureeight@beehaw.org ) English2•1 year ago
Generic? Gosh, it’s full of SCPs, I was thinking it was going to be too weird.
- keeyes ( @keeyes@lemmy.blahaj.zone ) English2•1 year ago
if you ever try it out, let me know what you think! if you’re looking to enjoy the story more without focusing on the gameplay mechanics, they have a ton of modifiers you can use that give you more/infinite health, energy, and damage. I also recommend the Ultimate Edition that comes with the DLC since the DLC is pretty substantial and adds a lot of really cool settings. There’s also some secret mods you can get there for you weapons that make them so much more fun. Plus with the Ultimate Edition on console it runs at 60fps which makes the game feel waaaay better
- AccountForStuff ( @AccountForStuff@beehaw.org ) English1•1 year ago
control is literally amazing I loved it so much. you’ll like it even more if you’re into SCP foundation type stuff
- NuPNuA ( @NuPNuA@lemm.ee ) English23•1 year ago
It’s like a TV Tropes page without the examples.
- nlm ( @nlm@beehaw.org ) English12•1 year ago
Yeah… I kind of… don’t get the point of this post.
Ok, so… you don’t like a bunch of stuff. Examples?
And what do you like? No game stories at all?
- Benghandhi ( @Benghandhi@beehaw.org ) English3•1 year ago
The point is “I’m better than you” and if you don’t agree then you’re wrong for liking the things that you do.
It’s like if the protagonist of this post went to a village and proclaimed that the way they were farming was wrong because they’re following a simple formula of planting seeds, watering them, watching them grow and then, see? I made up this weird scenario to explain why they’re wrong and I’m right. Why don’t you get it?
- nlm ( @nlm@beehaw.org ) English1•1 year ago
It’s just, the effort. I don’t know. Seems misplaced without any real points or examples. :)
I can name my top 5 favorite examples for each of these, but my experience is that naming a specific game and lobbing criticism at it never leads to a productive conversation. Yeah I have to hear your criticism that the post is worded in this way that makes people suspect I’m literally talking about their favorite game, but you haven’t seen people being literally told that I am talking about their favorite game and reacting accordingly to that. Give me the former any time.
This isn’t a post about “why what you like is bad”, it is a post about the ease of showering superlatives, and how this turns these superlatives meaningless – especially for people reading a review and trying to understand what quality of experience they can expect. Personally I’ve just stopped giving the claim “game X has an amazing story” any credibility. I filter it out like it wasn’t there and continue reading.
- azureeight ( @azureeight@beehaw.org ) English11•1 year ago
I’d say you did a poor job of making your point clear if this was really what you intended.
- Gravelsack ( @Gravelsack@lemmy.one ) English90•1 year ago
People who don’t like anything are incredibly boring, in my humble opinion. Imagine putting all of this effort into an essay about why other people shouldn’t like the things that they like. I think a lot of people mistake being a contrarion for being an intellectual.
- iusearchbtw ( @iusearchbtw@lemmy.sdf.org ) English86•1 year ago
I agree that video game narratives are, on average, way worse than in other media, but… This post is like a script for a CinemaSins video on an entire medium. There’s a conversation to be had about the quality and originality of storytelling in video games and why gamers are so quick to praise mediocre narratives, but I dunno if glib one-paragraph summaries of “types” of video game stories (with no examples!) do much to advance that conversation.
- PickTheStick ( @PickTheStick@lemmy.fmhy.ml ) English80•1 year ago
#Your favorite game’s “awesome story” robs the player of a basic sense of agency
It is generally not awesome for the player character to join a cult, agree to assassinate their boss’s boss, cheat on their life partner, pick a side in a major power struggle, voluntarily inject themselves with an experimental nano-fluid, etc, without the player’s consent.
Right, so…please tell me a narrative medium that allows this. Somehow movies, books, comics, manga, and literal storytelling all get a pass on this?
I can sort of nod along with everything else, agreeing that there is some truth in the spewing. This statement is so pants-on-head foolish that every other assertion you make gets dragged beneath the water and drowns with chains made of the last page of shitty choose-your-own-adventure book. And for that level of strength in the chains to work, those assertions have to be pretty crappy.
Sorry, but no medium of media allows for agency. I don’t care if you have some of the best writing in a game (whether that means Planescape: Torment, Baldur’s Gate II, Disco Elysium, whatever), or if you want to go with the old choose-your-own-adventure books, but there is ultimately little to no player agency. If you want player agency in a game, you have one choice, and it isn’t a video game: TTRPGs. Even ChatGPT can’t match what a good GM can do, because they can allow you to break the mechanics of the game or add mechanics on the fly to fit what a player wants to do. A GM can literally respond to something a game creator never imagined within seconds. I want to see Planescape or Disco Elysium react to a player doing something they thought of that the game creator didn’t imagine. Buuuulllllshit. Player agency my ass.
Also, as the OP obviously fails to mention any games that he thinks is worthy of being an ‘awesome story’, I’m calling this as a troll/bait post.
- millie ( @millie@beehaw.org ) English9•1 year ago
If you want player agency in a game, you have one choice, and it isn’t a video game: TTRPGs.
This is where RP comes in. A DM can provide a great overarching narrative experience, but having real opponents using strategy and secrecy is on another level. I’ll always love D&D, but there’s so much stuff you can pull off and so many experiences you can have in video game RP that would never fit into a campaign.
- dxcz ( @dxcz@beehaw.org ) English3•1 year ago
I think they’re mostly complaining about the fact that RPGs immerse you in such a way that you’re not WATCHING something but PERFORMING the action (so first person). And thus violating agency. Whereas books make it clear that you’re spectating (usually. choose your own adventure ala “you walk down the hall…” stuff as you stated)
I still think this post is hella flawed, and I agree with your assessment. But I think they’re offended by the fact that THEY have to move analog sticks and buttons to move the story forward.
- AfterAll ( @AfterAll@beehaw.org ) English73•1 year ago
why i hate your beehaw post: it’s carried by episodic discussion points
- Pixel ( @pixel@beehaw.org ) English57•1 year ago
Honestly being dismissive of these concepts as trite rather than recognizing the implicit value of tropes as a means of conveyance for a good story reads as contrived criticism attempting to convey an understanding of media broadly.
Tropes don’t make a story ineffective. Simple story structure doesn’t make a story ineffective. Contrivances don’t make a story ineffective. Did a story make you feel? Did it make you think? It did it’s job. This is non-constructive at best and an active effort to not understand media at worst and I’m really not sure what you’re trying to even get across given you gave zero examples of productive, fruitful storytelling that is more worth engaging with.
- aes <she/her> ( @aes@beehaw.org ) English6•1 year ago
Contrivances don’t make a story ineffective
You may want to rethink that one (jk) as this post feels contrived as all hell and becomes ineffective at communicating anything meaningful for it.
- Pixel ( @pixel@beehaw.org ) English7•1 year ago
they don’t inherently make a story ineffective but they sure as hell don’t help a bad point land
- Poke ( @poke@beehaw.org ) English47•1 year ago
My favorite game’s awesome story made me feel things, and I like it for that
- Yozul ( @yozul@beehaw.org ) English40•1 year ago
I’m gonna have to hard disagree on environmental storytelling. Not every story needs to be about a set of characters. Some stories are all about worldbuilding and mystery and discovery and that’s okay. It’s also okay if you hate those kinds of stories, but calling it “narrative homeopathy” just because you hate it is dishonest and arrogant. Some of my favorite books take place over generations with characters coming and going all the time and none of them really having any kind of narrative arc at all, but the story still ends up being one I enjoy. Does that not count as a story at all to you?
- Thugosaurus_Rex ( @Thugosaurus_Rex@beehaw.org ) English17•1 year ago
This point in particular seems to be conflating the terms “story,” “plot,” and “narrative,” and treating them as synonyms. We often use the terms interchangeably without issue because people generally understand what’s being talked about, but the differences matter on deeper critical examinations. A story is a sequence of events, plot is how those events relate to one another, and narrative is how it’s told (the accounting of story and plot itself). Environmental storytelling is often very light on direct narrative, which seems to be the criticism here rather than on story or plot. These games often have a lot of story, it’s just not told through a more traditional form of narrative.
- Storksforlegs ( @storksforlegs@beehaw.org ) English39•1 year ago
What games are you talking about? I think this would make more sense if you used examples to illustrate your points here.
Also, lots of these problems arent sounding like stuff I encounter in well-written games.
- StereoTypo ( @StereoTypo@beehaw.org ) English7•1 year ago
OP doesn’t even acknowledge the existence of short, narratively fascinating games. Papers Please comes to mind as an incredible experience that could be summed up in a few well crafted pages but would utterly miss the sense of urgency that comes with each mundane shift at the Arstotzka border.
- StereoTypo ( @StereoTypo@beehaw.org ) English38•1 year ago
This post was way to broad and generalized to foster an actual discussion. Many assumptions are also made about interactive storytelling which bely OPs attitude towards an entire form of narrative media.
- greenskye ( @greenskye@beehaw.org ) English1•1 year ago
Agreed. I can get on board with the opinion that video game stories are generally sub par (when looked at from only the story perspective) and that it would be nice for a game to truly approach story telling on a level comparable to a decent novel, but the lack of any specifics makes the post come off as whiney and pretentious.
- VoxAdActa ( @VoxAdActa@beehaw.org ) English1•1 year ago
it would be nice for a game to truly approach story telling on a level comparable to a decent novel
Possibly a hot take, but I don’t think that’s really possible. Whenever the reader has the option to interact with the story, concessions have to be made to the narrative structure, and someone’s always going to take issue with those concessions, in one way or another.
Frankly, I feel the medium of games is great for telling stories, but sucks for telling novel-like stories. By necessity, the closer a game gets to having a novel-like story, the less direct interaction the player gets to have with it. On the near end of the scale, you have sandbox games like Minecraft, with no story at all and an infinite number of ways the player can interact with and change the world. On the far end, you get things like the TellTale games, where your interaction with the story is strictly limited to a couple of button presses every few minutes, and the illusion that you have some say in how the story ends up is broken fairly quickly (all the jokes about “X will remember that” when they clearly won’t).
I personally hate the TellTale-style games, precisely because I feel like I’m just watching a movie that has occasional mandatory attention checks at random spots. But they’re pretty popular, and their great, closer to novel-like, stories are a big reason for that popularity.
The more events are scripted, and the more linear the gameplay, the tighter (and, therefore, more like a novel) the narrative structure can be. As events get more random and the world gets more open, the more the style of storytelling has to deviate from the novel format. The Witcher 3 is more like a collection of short stories with a central theme than it is a novel, and Elder Scrolls Online is more like a cineplex with 12 totally different movies playing all the time, and you’re allowed to bounce from theater to theater just whenever. I don’t think those differences are signs of bad writing, or whatever; I just think they’re necessary concessions the storytelling medium of each game has to make for their genre.
While the art of writing for video games is still maturing in a lot of ways, I don’t think we’re ever going to get a story that’s on the level of a decent novel, just because the needs of the medium are entirely different. They can’t, and shouldn’t, be judged by that comparison; it’s bad enough when movies are judged against their novel counterparts (outside of extreme examples, like World War Z).
- CarnivorousCouch ( @CarnivorousCouch@beehaw.org ) English1•1 year ago
I appreciate your thoughts here, but I wonder if you’ve ever played Disco Elysium? To me, that game comes closest to approximating the storytelling prowess of a novel while also retaining player agency in significant ways. I pitch the game to people as “a point and click mystery game crossed with an existential novel.”
- VoxAdActa ( @VoxAdActa@beehaw.org ) English1•1 year ago
Well, but see, that’s the thing, though. Your interaction with the world is limited to the use of a mouse on defined screen elements, in a particular order. Sure, you can complete the specific goals of the investigation in any order, but you can’t go to confront the suspect or go to the island early, and when you get to the suspect, things have to be done in a very specific order. You can’t effectively skip anything; you’re not going to stumble onto the body on the boardwalk sidequest until day 3, and once you get to the end and leave the apartment, you can never go back. There are several points of no return, preventing you from going back and getting more money or completing any previous side quests. There are only a couple of choices that have any effect on the ultimate outcome of the story (like whether or not you stayed sober) other than determining which of the, what, 15 different Game Over screens you can get. For example, if you try to insist on arresting the Hardie boys too early, bam, story ends. If you decide not to pay for a room and sleep outside, bam, story ends.
You’re not going to start the game and go on a cross-country run to see if you can climb that mountain over there, Skyrim style, and do a bunch of quests completely out of order, get all your favorite gear from a shrine you’re not even supposed to find until level 30 at level 2, then go back to Riverwood and do step 1 of the main quest after 50 hours. It’s a funnel that starts out with the illusion of being very broad until it narrows you into one of a couple of specific paths to one of a very small number of possible endings.
Which is the point. It’s a great story. It tells the story well. In order to do that, the game constrains your ability to interact with the world and the narrative.
- koreth ( @koreth@lemm.ee ) English34•1 year ago
This post begs for a list of games whose stories avoid most or all of these traps.
I’ll start with an easy one: Disco Elysium.
- Poopfeast420 ( @Poopfeast420@feddit.de ) English14•1 year ago
With how vague this post is written, you can probably shoehorn Disco Elysium into these categories.
- knokelmaat ( @knokelmaat@beehaw.org ) English9•1 year ago
What Remains of Edith Finch.
Yes it is a walking sim, but if this story doesn’t have characters than I don’t know what does.
- ninjan ( @ninjan@lemmy.mildgrim.com ) English4•1 year ago
Love the game and the story, but it absolutely is at least partly guilty of the last one. While it’s used to great effect to set the mood and is very obviously done over the top it also is used to make the story more grandiose than it really actually is. At its core it’s a rather small affair, that the player is lead to believe is this major deal. It’s really great that way the first time through. The second it, to me, is a little done. For multiple playthroughs and if you wanted to improve the story aspect of the game then you’d tone that down and focus more on the great “whodunnit” aspect(s) of the story(ies).
- bermuda ( @bermuda@beehaw.org ) English3•1 year ago
The Talos Principle
- ag_roberston_author ( @ag_roberston_author@beehaw.org ) English3•1 year ago
The Motion Sickness Principle
- Vestria ( @Vestria@beehaw.org ) English33•1 year ago
This reads like dialogue written for the “pretentious writer” friend character trope who is always shitting on other peoples’ work but hasn’t ever had any success with his own in every B-list Hollywood meta comedy: smug, confident, completely wrong, and utterly without purpose or substance.
- Plus_a_Grain_of_Salt ( @Plus_a_Grain_of_Salt@beehaw.org ) English6•1 year ago
Yes, there was an odd vibe here I couldn’t pin down, I think you found it.
- karbonkel ( @karbonkel@beehaw.org ) English33•1 year ago
Tell me your parents never read stories to you, without telling me your parents never read stories to you.
- NuPNuA ( @NuPNuA@lemm.ee ) English21•1 year ago
I was thinking first year media studies at uni.
- HappyFrog ( @HappyFrog@lemmy.blahaj.zone ) English32•1 year ago
Strawman
- fracture [he/him] ( @fracture@beehaw.org ) English31•1 year ago
i think there’s probably some good points in here. however, the presentation you’ve chosen here makes it difficult understand what those points are (i thought these critiques were about the same game / genre of games at first, but i’m thinking they’re now probably separate critiques about different styles of storytelling); especially since each point probably deserves its own post, along with named examples of games where you’ve encountered this
but i think there are some critiques in here worth mentioning, things like “it’s difficult to find games where your actions have a lasting impact and don’t just resolve the obstacle in front of you; while still having compelling gameplay”. or “sequels commonly don’t understand what made the original popular”. these are good, compelling critiques of things that happen in video games. this also allow people to recommend games that maybe address those complaints or maybe don’t
unfortunately, it’s hard to have that discussion right now because it currently boils down to “stories in games are dogshit”. and i mean, i can empathize, even if i don’t necessarily agree. maybe you just needed to get it off your chest, which is cool. hopefully this feedback helps you if you want to have a more in-depth, nuanced discussion about this later
- Plus_a_Grain_of_Salt ( @Plus_a_Grain_of_Salt@beehaw.org ) English2•1 year ago
I’m glad you took the time to write this out because I would’ve missed that valid critique. I don’t believe it’s true in all instances, but mastering a meaningful choice-based game is challenging from the first day of development to the release. Shout out to the Fallout series btw