Unfortunately for quite a few of the fights it’s not possible due to the shove distances being 6+ metres, when in regular DnD the shove (which is an action not a bonus action) is only 5ft.
There is at least one fight where it starts after a cut scene so you do not have an opportunity to adjust position. The character who started the scene gets placed such that they are easy to push and instakill. There are multiple enemies that have the opportunity to do so. If you don’t have a good initiative/athletics you’re pretty boned. It feels really cheap.
Assuming you mean a boss at the end of act 2 / beginning of act 3, Balthazar
I got pushed off the ledge a few times. What worked for me was, while the first character was stuck in dialogue, the rest of my party would sneak in and position advantageously before starting the fight mid-dialogue on my own terms. It was indeed bullshit, but not nearly as bullshit as me reloading for 20 mins convincing a boss to kill themselves, so I think the game and I can call it even.
I also completed a few tough early fights with 2 mage hands and a cliff, so really, I’m pro-shoving all the way.
I was talking about the boat trip in the underdark. My main character is a rogue and depending on the dialog choices the enemy seems to just goes first. The first time I got to it, my rogue and mage were both pushed overboard before I even got a tern. I got around it by having a tanky fighter activate the boat so she was the one in the conversation and resisted the shove. It’s not horrible, but it felt really cheap.
That fight gave me so much trouble. Every single try at least one of my party members was shoved into the abyss and in 20 tries or so not a single one resisted the shove. In the end I did everything I could to nuke the boss, ignoring everything else and then with my last party member I went invisible, jumped to a safe spot and killed everything else with a bow.
Not really a bug imo.
There’s only been 1 fight where I did a reload due to losing a party member from shoving. Most fights it can be avoided and is part of the fun of combat.
I would not describe it as a fun part of combat at all.
It completely breaks the balance when you and your enemies can instakill enemies on one strength save that pushes characters 6+ metres to their deaths with a bonus action. In DnD rules, the shove is an action and moves character 5ft, one square.
It completely breaks the balance when you can use a single strength check to essentially get the same benefit as the 5th level spell telekinesis (only accessible by level 9 spellcasters), or a grapple and throw check (requiring two actions).
Counterpoint: maybe don’t position yourself near an instant death chasm? Or invest more into Athletics/Acrobatics?
Even if we take away Shove, the issue is still present with Thunderclap - make a single DC save from a 1st-level spell or be pushed into an instant death chasm.
Thunderclap requires a spell slot and isn’t a bonus action. Part of the problem is that every enemy gets to do their full attack, and then go ahead and try a shove just to see if it works for funsies.
If shoves work to the way that they do in d&d, then an enemy going for a shove and failing would mean that they had done nothing on their turn and that you would be net-positive on the round. That doesn’t happen in this game because they get to have their cake and eat it too by getting to make an attack and a shove in the same turn.
Ah, I see. Yeah, Shove being a bonus action is a bit ridiculous - it should’ve been an action from the start since it’s an insanely easy get-out-of-jail-free card. Honestly wouldn’t mind a book implementation of 5e Shove being a normal action, and then just have the game’s current Shove be a “Forceful Shove” or something that takes up both normal and bonus actions.
That being said, the problem the other dude brings up is basically solved with trying to stay in a better position. If you’re gonna fight near a chasm or a very high-up walkway, you should expect to get shoved or pushed off somehow.
The problem is a matter of numbers. If every enemy is trying to shove me off a cliff, they shouldn’t also be able to do damage.
Regardless of that though, your last sentence seems to be implying that the player should have just not positioned themselves that way, but I regret to inform you that there are a lot of fights where you don’t control everyone on your side. I save-scummed a fight three times because my ally spent his first turn every single time running straight into combat and standing on a peninsula surrounded on three sides by lava.
People literally beeline my casters and shove them every fight that I don’t stack them behind front-liners. Maybe it’s a difficulty thing?
It’s also super fight-dependent because the only reason to use shove is if you can push someone into something. If it’s just a fight in an open field there’s no use.
Though it is a super easy way to just try to get away free from a AoO from a melee person in range. The action economy is supposed to be “if I don’t want to take an AoO and can’t teleport, then I have to Disengage and that’s my action”, but now they can try a shove for “free” and if it works they can move freely and still attack.
That’s a great comparison because thunderclap is more difficult to use than the shove, first being a spell save and second being a full action.
Plenty of fights where it is unavoidable, but as I mentioned in the previous comment, it’s completely different to how it works in DnD and makes some fights a joke if you push an enemy to their death or just causes frustration if one of your spellcasters is shoved to death on the first turn.
Basically turns most fights in areas with chasms into shoving matches which means you ignore the actual mechanics of the fight to just shove and avoid being shoved. It’s sucks.
Yeah, totally glossed over the bit where you were focusing on Shove being a bonus action and causing some wacky balance. Thought it was moreso the fact that it’s even a mechanic in the first place.
I mean, while it was hilarious I could shove all three bosses in the Goblin Camp into chasms before they aggro’d me, it is broken in that A) you can shove non-hostile NPCs indefinitely with no repercussions, and B) you can do a full attack and always Shove in a single turn, which has huge benefits for characters with high STR.
Yeah, obviously, it’s just an aspect of the game that really sucks. Every enemy and character should not have a bonus action that is better than spells requiring a spell slot and action. Reduces the uniqueness of the spells and reduces fights in chasm areas to who can push who off a ledge the fastest.
Worst of all, it’s not even remotely similar to the DnD rules for shoving, which requires a full action, instead of a bonus action, and only pushes 5ft, not the 15-20ft shoves in BG3.
Lae’zel can regularly push enemies 15-20ft, as can any other character with 18-20 STR.
If you’ve GM’d plenty of 5E, then you know that the rules in 5E are as I said in the previous comment: “requires a full action … and only pushes 5ft”, which is much more balanced and rewards positioning in fights, not completely broken like it is in BG3.
I think it’s likely that they meant 4e was the change that made it not D&D. That said, time has dulled the shock, and honestly, 4e had a lot of great shit in it.
In 5E’s defense, I’ve been playing since AD&D, and I’ve never had as many sessions, with so many people, and had so much fun, since 5e. 5E made D&D accessible, and that’s a good enough reason for me to DM with it.
I play an Oathbreaker Paladin and I have never had this problem. Usually, I’m the one shoving things to their death if I absolutely must.
So, your positioning needs reconsidering, or you need to use your tank/STR character to force an opening so you can relocate. OR you’re just really unlucky.
From my perspective, if you’re falling to your death that much, it’s more likely you either like standing on cliffs or you’re trying to make excessive use of High Ground attack bonus, which IMO isn’t enough to justify me wasting a move turn repositioning and setting myself up for a potential fall.
By all accounts, this is not a bug, nor is it a problem if you adapt your strategy to prevent such a thing.
You can revivify party members who fell into chasms by using the scroll/spell on their “soul orb,” which should appear somewhere in the area. Granted, it may be far enough away that you need to survive the fight first.
Unfortunately still no fix for enemies shoving characters to instadeath. Absolutely ruins many fights and forces a bunch of reloads.
I haven’t started playing yet, but this sounds like the solution is to not position your party near instadeath falls.
Unfortunately for quite a few of the fights it’s not possible due to the shove distances being 6+ metres, when in regular DnD the shove (which is an action not a bonus action) is only 5ft.
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Usually happens because people will set caster STR to 8.
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Trying to be spoiler free
There is at least one fight where it starts after a cut scene so you do not have an opportunity to adjust position. The character who started the scene gets placed such that they are easy to push and instakill. There are multiple enemies that have the opportunity to do so. If you don’t have a good initiative/athletics you’re pretty boned. It feels really cheap.
Assuming you mean a boss at the end of act 2 / beginning of act 3, Balthazar
I got pushed off the ledge a few times. What worked for me was, while the first character was stuck in dialogue, the rest of my party would sneak in and position advantageously before starting the fight mid-dialogue on my own terms. It was indeed bullshit, but not nearly as bullshit as me reloading for 20 mins convincing a boss to kill themselves, so I think the game and I can call it even.
I also completed a few tough early fights with 2 mage hands and a cliff, so really, I’m pro-shoving all the way.
Not the one I was thinking.
spoiler
I was talking about the boat trip in the underdark. My main character is a rogue and depending on the dialog choices the enemy seems to just goes first. The first time I got to it, my rogue and mage were both pushed overboard before I even got a tern. I got around it by having a tanky fighter activate the boat so she was the one in the conversation and resisted the shove. It’s not horrible, but it felt really cheap.
That fight gave me so much trouble. Every single try at least one of my party members was shoved into the abyss and in 20 tries or so not a single one resisted the shove. In the end I did everything I could to nuke the boss, ignoring everything else and then with my last party member I went invisible, jumped to a safe spot and killed everything else with a bow.
That does sound cheap. Is it listed in this tome of patch notes as something they addressed?
Yeah I’ve had this happen and it’s def not a bug lol. I laugh when I forget it can happen
Not really a bug imo. There’s only been 1 fight where I did a reload due to losing a party member from shoving. Most fights it can be avoided and is part of the fun of combat.
I would not describe it as a fun part of combat at all.
It completely breaks the balance when you and your enemies can instakill enemies on one strength save that pushes characters 6+ metres to their deaths with a bonus action. In DnD rules, the shove is an action and moves character 5ft, one square.
It completely breaks the balance when you can use a single strength check to essentially get the same benefit as the 5th level spell telekinesis (only accessible by level 9 spellcasters), or a grapple and throw check (requiring two actions).
Counterpoint: maybe don’t position yourself near an instant death chasm? Or invest more into Athletics/Acrobatics?
Even if we take away Shove, the issue is still present with Thunderclap - make a single DC save from a 1st-level spell or be pushed into an instant death chasm.
Thunderclap requires a spell slot and isn’t a bonus action. Part of the problem is that every enemy gets to do their full attack, and then go ahead and try a shove just to see if it works for funsies.
If shoves work to the way that they do in d&d, then an enemy going for a shove and failing would mean that they had done nothing on their turn and that you would be net-positive on the round. That doesn’t happen in this game because they get to have their cake and eat it too by getting to make an attack and a shove in the same turn.
Ah, I see. Yeah, Shove being a bonus action is a bit ridiculous - it should’ve been an action from the start since it’s an insanely easy get-out-of-jail-free card. Honestly wouldn’t mind a book implementation of 5e Shove being a normal action, and then just have the game’s current Shove be a “Forceful Shove” or something that takes up both normal and bonus actions.
That being said, the problem the other dude brings up is basically solved with trying to stay in a better position. If you’re gonna fight near a chasm or a very high-up walkway, you should expect to get shoved or pushed off somehow.
The problem is a matter of numbers. If every enemy is trying to shove me off a cliff, they shouldn’t also be able to do damage.
Regardless of that though, your last sentence seems to be implying that the player should have just not positioned themselves that way, but I regret to inform you that there are a lot of fights where you don’t control everyone on your side. I save-scummed a fight three times because my ally spent his first turn every single time running straight into combat and standing on a peninsula surrounded on three sides by lava.
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People literally beeline my casters and shove them every fight that I don’t stack them behind front-liners. Maybe it’s a difficulty thing?
It’s also super fight-dependent because the only reason to use shove is if you can push someone into something. If it’s just a fight in an open field there’s no use.
Though it is a super easy way to just try to get away free from a AoO from a melee person in range. The action economy is supposed to be “if I don’t want to take an AoO and can’t teleport, then I have to Disengage and that’s my action”, but now they can try a shove for “free” and if it works they can move freely and still attack.
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That’s a great comparison because thunderclap is more difficult to use than the shove, first being a spell save and second being a full action.
Plenty of fights where it is unavoidable, but as I mentioned in the previous comment, it’s completely different to how it works in DnD and makes some fights a joke if you push an enemy to their death or just causes frustration if one of your spellcasters is shoved to death on the first turn.
Basically turns most fights in areas with chasms into shoving matches which means you ignore the actual mechanics of the fight to just shove and avoid being shoved. It’s sucks.
Yeah, totally glossed over the bit where you were focusing on Shove being a bonus action and causing some wacky balance. Thought it was moreso the fact that it’s even a mechanic in the first place.
I mean, while it was hilarious I could shove all three bosses in the Goblin Camp into chasms before they aggro’d me, it is broken in that A) you can shove non-hostile NPCs indefinitely with no repercussions, and B) you can do a full attack and always Shove in a single turn, which has huge benefits for characters with high STR.
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Yeah, obviously, it’s just an aspect of the game that really sucks. Every enemy and character should not have a bonus action that is better than spells requiring a spell slot and action. Reduces the uniqueness of the spells and reduces fights in chasm areas to who can push who off a ledge the fastest.
Worst of all, it’s not even remotely similar to the DnD rules for shoving, which requires a full action, instead of a bonus action, and only pushes 5ft, not the 15-20ft shoves in BG3.
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Nope. Not exaggerating at all.
Lae’zel can regularly push enemies 15-20ft, as can any other character with 18-20 STR.
If you’ve GM’d plenty of 5E, then you know that the rules in 5E are as I said in the previous comment: “requires a full action … and only pushes 5ft”, which is much more balanced and rewards positioning in fights, not completely broken like it is in BG3.
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It’s D&D. I never say this but I think in this case you should probably just get good.
If it’s happening that often, that’s absolutely a positioning problem.
No, it’s not DnD.
In the DnD rules Shove requires a full action, not a bonus action, and only pushes the enemy 5ft, not 15-20ft.
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@ag_roberston_author @Bakwerk Is DnD even DnD since 4E?
I never thought I’d see the day there was 4E purists.
Like 3.5E and OSR purists I kinda get, but 4E?
I think it’s likely that they meant 4e was the change that made it not D&D. That said, time has dulled the shock, and honestly, 4e had a lot of great shit in it.
@ag_roberston_author What I mean is it hasn’t been the same since 4E was wrought upon us.
I’m a 3.5E schlub.
Ah, gotcha. That makes much more sense haha.
In 5E’s defense, I’ve been playing since AD&D, and I’ve never had as many sessions, with so many people, and had so much fun, since 5e. 5E made D&D accessible, and that’s a good enough reason for me to DM with it.
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@nxdefiant Hear you loud and clear: I should get with the times, or at least be open to it.
I was so hurt by 4E, but I gotta move on.
Oh don’t let me discourage you! I still play 3.5 with some friends who just prefer it. To each according to their need!
I play an Oathbreaker Paladin and I have never had this problem. Usually, I’m the one shoving things to their death if I absolutely must.
So, your positioning needs reconsidering, or you need to use your tank/STR character to force an opening so you can relocate. OR you’re just really unlucky.
From my perspective, if you’re falling to your death that much, it’s more likely you either like standing on cliffs or you’re trying to make excessive use of High Ground attack bonus, which IMO isn’t enough to justify me wasting a move turn repositioning and setting myself up for a potential fall.
By all accounts, this is not a bug, nor is it a problem if you adapt your strategy to prevent such a thing.
Two words: Balthazar fight.
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When you applied to have a Beehaw account you agreed to be(e) nice. Take three days off to think about that.
No need to be so rude.
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You can revivify party members who fell into chasms by using the scroll/spell on their “soul orb,” which should appear somewhere in the area. Granted, it may be far enough away that you need to survive the fight first.