At worst, I think it wouldn’t have made a difference. The genocide is happening now under Biden with no opportunity for a ceasefire. Biden is unconditionally supporting Israel politically and militarily, sent them thousands of tonnes of bombs, and the US vetoed a UN ceasefire multiple times and voted against Palestinian statehood. Everything he has done is what Trump would have done in the worst case scenario.
I dunno, I feel like Palestinians on U.S. soil would have been in far more danger with Trump as president. Just given the events of all the hate crime directed towards people of color during 2020.
… That makes it sound like Palestinians all over the world should be killed because of Israel.
I strongly disagree if that’s the case. It is a good thing that U.S. citizens are on the side of Palestinians, even if our government hasn’t been successful in calling for a ceasefire, I cannot possibly see how having a president actively siding against Palestine would be good. Trump told Israel to finish the problem. It is that simple.
Regardless of everything, I appreciate having this conversation with you. There’s a lot of facets to these issues and the genocide of Palestine is close to home, as is the hate crime experienced during 2016. There is rarely an easy solution, and as a result often times it comes down to seemingly irreconcilable ideologies. I feel that humanitarianism is how we can bridge the gap, but of course that requires the ideology to be willing to accept something. Hence the intolerance of the intolerant.
For what it’s worth, like there is no good Nazi, I genuinely feel there is no good Zionist, as the ideology inherently holds a false assumption (probably a better word can be used) used to perpetuate the belief. So, I hope you can understand my statements as coming from a place of wanting change to be an option, rather than as dismissal of Israel’s genocide.
The United States education system In 2016 was given one goal with the appointment of Betsy DeVoss (sister to Erik Price of Black Water) as the Secretary of Education, to dismantle the education system. They succeeded, and it has only just started to turn around. The EPA gone for 4 years. The role of government severely diminished its ability to work for its citizens in so many places. So to destroy our ability to govern under a conservative government seems to not align with our goals, as not only do they supply even more weapons for war, have hateful rhetoric against our ally (citizens ally, Palestine), all while losing the growth of American citizens to me, seems like a surefire way to make sure Israel is never stopped.
By bolstering education, bolstering our ability to govern and make change, which bolsters the citizens ability to have meaningful votes - that is how we stop Israel.
Not by abstaining and letting it all fail. By doing everything we can to make sure that progress is made, and we cannot let perfect be the enemy of progress else no progress will ever be made. The only way that I personally see Palestine being safe is by making sure the people we have the opportunity to vote in feel the same way you and I do. And that, historically, cannot happen with Trump as president.
I didn’t know Trump was president right now. How can you pretend that Biden and Harris don’t want the same thing even if they are more tacit and political in their messaging? Their actions lead to the exact same outcome.
If you want to vote for Harris knock yourself out. I’m trying to explain my point of view which you refuse to understand by pretending that Trump is the current president.
This is what your beloved cunt released recently:
This is reducible to Trump’s “finish the job”, just in a politer way.
This has been our discussion the whole time. You mentioned 2020, I said you really think it would be better under Trump. At no point did I imply that he was current president, my point the whole time has been that Trump’s rhetoric would be far worse for Palestinians on U.S. soil and abroad. There would be no discussion of ceasefire. There would be far more death in the world happening, and it would be lauded by Trump and his voters.
Instead we have a huge swathe of citizens appalled by the actions of Biden with a huge amount of support for Palestine. Furthermore, unfortunately a President is more than one policy, so while I may vote for Kamala when the time comes, it will be for her environmental policies, not for her stance towards Israel. Believe me, I am dismayed. I’m from Oakland, I know what she has done. At the same time, she cares for the education system, the environment, and for all of the other things our country is massively failing in when it was thrown under the bus in 2016.
To say that Biden’s Presidency has been the worst thing for Palestinians seems inaccurate solely because the citizens of the U.S. desperately want to help. We also desperately do not want Trump again, nor to have to deal with the people who vote for him. How can we reconcile that? It seems most have accepted that the ability to vote for people who can make change eventually is better than voting for someone who has actively removed LGBT and PoC politicians from holding office (or have removed themselves for fear of their own safety which is really the same thing).
It makes no sense to watch our country fall to ruin in government while the same happens to Palestine in war. When it does, then we really can’t help at all, because the people in power will only be supplying weapons of mass destruction and the “lip service” of discussing ceasefires are a thing of the past. We have to have nuance in these situations, else we commit even more atrocities without ever having even a small chance of rectifying it. To me, this isn’t just about the President, as they are just one figurehead that is most public. It’s about the cabinet and our government as a whole and their ability to functionally serve.
In addition to the statement you posted, I also recently read a report that some 70% of U.S. citizens are demanding a ceasefire, and some 90% of those in government are against it. Well guess what, that percentage won’t ever change if we don’t vote, and it will change even less if a conservative government like Trump’s comes back, given that he singlehandedly decimated our civil servants (with a strong quarter of those positions still gone today). To have a government that doesn’t serve it’s people is a failing of the United States. To have a government where the citizens cannot even vote in future elections is no longer a democratic republic.
Do you feel that the genocide would have been avoided had Trump won 2020? Because he told Israel to “finish the problem”.
For some odd reason I have a feeling we would be in an even worse situation, with no opportunity for a ceasefire.
At worst, I think it wouldn’t have made a difference. The genocide is happening now under Biden with no opportunity for a ceasefire. Biden is unconditionally supporting Israel politically and militarily, sent them thousands of tonnes of bombs, and the US vetoed a UN ceasefire multiple times and voted against Palestinian statehood. Everything he has done is what Trump would have done in the worst case scenario.
I dunno, I feel like Palestinians on U.S. soil would have been in far more danger with Trump as president. Just given the events of all the hate crime directed towards people of color during 2020.
If the options are:
It is far more honorable and dignified to take option 2.
… That makes it sound like Palestinians all over the world should be killed because of Israel.
I strongly disagree if that’s the case. It is a good thing that U.S. citizens are on the side of Palestinians, even if our government hasn’t been successful in calling for a ceasefire, I cannot possibly see how having a president actively siding against Palestine would be good. Trump told Israel to finish the problem. It is that simple.
Regardless of everything, I appreciate having this conversation with you. There’s a lot of facets to these issues and the genocide of Palestine is close to home, as is the hate crime experienced during 2016. There is rarely an easy solution, and as a result often times it comes down to seemingly irreconcilable ideologies. I feel that humanitarianism is how we can bridge the gap, but of course that requires the ideology to be willing to accept something. Hence the intolerance of the intolerant.
For what it’s worth, like there is no good Nazi, I genuinely feel there is no good Zionist, as the ideology inherently holds a false assumption (probably a better word can be used) used to perpetuate the belief. So, I hope you can understand my statements as coming from a place of wanting change to be an option, rather than as dismissal of Israel’s genocide.
The United States education system In 2016 was given one goal with the appointment of Betsy DeVoss (sister to Erik Price of Black Water) as the Secretary of Education, to dismantle the education system. They succeeded, and it has only just started to turn around. The EPA gone for 4 years. The role of government severely diminished its ability to work for its citizens in so many places. So to destroy our ability to govern under a conservative government seems to not align with our goals, as not only do they supply even more weapons for war, have hateful rhetoric against our ally (citizens ally, Palestine), all while losing the growth of American citizens to me, seems like a surefire way to make sure Israel is never stopped.
By bolstering education, bolstering our ability to govern and make change, which bolsters the citizens ability to have meaningful votes - that is how we stop Israel.
Not by abstaining and letting it all fail. By doing everything we can to make sure that progress is made, and we cannot let perfect be the enemy of progress else no progress will ever be made. The only way that I personally see Palestine being safe is by making sure the people we have the opportunity to vote in feel the same way you and I do. And that, historically, cannot happen with Trump as president.
I didn’t know Trump was president right now. How can you pretend that Biden and Harris don’t want the same thing even if they are more tacit and political in their messaging? Their actions lead to the exact same outcome.
If you want to vote for Harris knock yourself out. I’m trying to explain my point of view which you refuse to understand by pretending that Trump is the current president.
This is what your beloved cunt released recently:
This is reducible to Trump’s “finish the job”, just in a politer way.
This has been our discussion the whole time. You mentioned 2020, I said you really think it would be better under Trump. At no point did I imply that he was current president, my point the whole time has been that Trump’s rhetoric would be far worse for Palestinians on U.S. soil and abroad. There would be no discussion of ceasefire. There would be far more death in the world happening, and it would be lauded by Trump and his voters.
Instead we have a huge swathe of citizens appalled by the actions of Biden with a huge amount of support for Palestine. Furthermore, unfortunately a President is more than one policy, so while I may vote for Kamala when the time comes, it will be for her environmental policies, not for her stance towards Israel. Believe me, I am dismayed. I’m from Oakland, I know what she has done. At the same time, she cares for the education system, the environment, and for all of the other things our country is massively failing in when it was thrown under the bus in 2016.
To say that Biden’s Presidency has been the worst thing for Palestinians seems inaccurate solely because the citizens of the U.S. desperately want to help. We also desperately do not want Trump again, nor to have to deal with the people who vote for him. How can we reconcile that? It seems most have accepted that the ability to vote for people who can make change eventually is better than voting for someone who has actively removed LGBT and PoC politicians from holding office (or have removed themselves for fear of their own safety which is really the same thing).
It makes no sense to watch our country fall to ruin in government while the same happens to Palestine in war. When it does, then we really can’t help at all, because the people in power will only be supplying weapons of mass destruction and the “lip service” of discussing ceasefires are a thing of the past. We have to have nuance in these situations, else we commit even more atrocities without ever having even a small chance of rectifying it. To me, this isn’t just about the President, as they are just one figurehead that is most public. It’s about the cabinet and our government as a whole and their ability to functionally serve.
In addition to the statement you posted, I also recently read a report that some 70% of U.S. citizens are demanding a ceasefire, and some 90% of those in government are against it. Well guess what, that percentage won’t ever change if we don’t vote, and it will change even less if a conservative government like Trump’s comes back, given that he singlehandedly decimated our civil servants (with a strong quarter of those positions still gone today). To have a government that doesn’t serve it’s people is a failing of the United States. To have a government where the citizens cannot even vote in future elections is no longer a democratic republic.