The Legend of Zelda series producer Eiji Aonuma has again commented on the possibility of revisiting the style of past entries in the series – but there are no plans as of now. Speaking with RTL Nieuws, Aonuma said that games like Breath of the Wild and Tears of the Kingdom were possible because of what came before them. However,...
The worlds are largely empty and boring to explore even compared to some much older open world titles
movement/controls are clunky
the combat system is incredibly simplistic especially compared to other games and makes combat largely uninteresting and unchallenging
the weapon durability system is terrible and not only discourages exploration (to save your good weapons), but also prevents more complex combat mechanics from existing at all
the plots really aren’t good at all
the shrines are repetitive
the side quests have no good rewards and often aren’t worth bothering with. This is due to any substansial rewards (health and stamina) being locked to shrines, main tools being given to you at the start, a lack of proper progression, and other tools like weapons being disposible.
Because they give you all the tools at the start of the game, there’s really no sense of progression making the game feel stale a lot more quickly then it otherwise should
TOTK doesn’t really address any of these problems from BOTW. It does address things like enemy variety, and dungeons/bosses (barely), but both games share so many of the same issues I struggled to get through TOTK.
I disagree with all and every single point you made, to the point that I think the complete opposite about most of them. So I guess those are subjective, not objective issues, and the game is not for everyone. I don’t think every game has to be for everyone, but it’s clear looking at popularity, sells, and cultural impact, that both BotW and TotK are liked by a huge amount of people just as they are. And I for one would definitely like to have a third installment.
I think if you disagree with all of those points so surely, then you need to play more non-nintendo games.
Obviously you can still love these games even if you’ve played a bunch of other stuff, but a lot of the specific points I’ve made are pretty dang objective in the context of the wider gaming space, not subjective. The world is objectively very empty compared to other open world titles (especially new ones but even some that were out in 2017), the combat system is objectively very simplistic, the side quest rewards are objectively not that useful in the context of the game, the progression is objectively very lackluster after the tutorial areas, etc.
You can have a difference in opinion that’s totally chill, and you can prefer Nintendo games that’s also totally chill. It’s just whenever I speak to people about these games such as yourself, and I hear them say things like what you’re saying, it’s almost always been an indicator that this person is either a huge Nintendo fan or just hasn’t played many other titles that would be in this same genre. BOTW and TOTK are good games but they have clear flaws.
The thing is, can you make any objective arguments towards any of them?
Because here’s mine:
Yes, the world is empty and boring, because all you’ll really find by wandering around are Korok seeds and “enemy camps” with the same few types of Bokoblin. If you’re lucky you’ll find a dragon somewhere or oh, look, there’s Eventide and Tarry Town, the two only tiny drops of interesting content in this oceanic heightmap of a game outside of the main quest.
As for clunky movement, I guess they’re just frustrated by the jump button? I do disagree about it being clunky but, then, I disagree with the whole principle of controls being “clunky” unless you’re talking about something like Dwarf Fortress.
Yes, the combat system is absolutely shallow. You get a single multi-hit string and a charged up swing for each weapon type and… that’s about it. More importantly the way you engage enemies is just… they do their one big swing that leaves them wide open, you knock them around like a ragdoll. It’s just not particularly fun. Yes, you can mess around with the sandbox, but for most people that really means “spam bombs” and more importantly, straight-up combat is actually easier while it should be the other way around. If you can just autopilot your way through fighting things it’s just not all that fun.
Weapon durability… really just please come up with an actual argument for it. It made sense in Wind Waker where these weapons weren’t being used as “rewards” for exploration because Wind Waker actually had a traditional LoZ style item system. In a game where weapons disappear after one significant fight, don’t reward people with a fancy sword after a significant fight. It’s just a pointless treadmill.
The story- The only LoZ games with anything resembling an interesting story are Majora’s Mask, Skyward Sword and maybe Wind Waker. I’ll always argue that Nintendo never actually had any notion of these games existing in a “timeline” beyond vague references until they realized that superfans kept coming up with their own, and more importantly, these stories are intentionally shallow as hell. Characters have zero depth, the plot is forever a retread of old ideas, there’s little to no actual world building beyond what fans have done for Nintendo themselves.
Shrines repetitive? It depends on what you’re looking for, but it can’t be argued that they’re no classic Zelda dungeons. They’re like one teeny-tiny chunk of traditional Zelda dungeon, all split up, all with no context beyond “hey we hid all these spirit orbs away because gameplay”. Traditional Zelda dungeons had interesting themes and at least the illusion that you needed to conserve your resources because you were, y’know, stuck in a dungeon.
Side quests: Like weapon durability, how could you argue that the side quests in these games aren’t unrewarding? All you’ll ever get from them are consumable items. That really sort of just sucks.
Getting every tool at the start- Once again, this is just true. An unfortunate result of the “structure” of these games is that there really can’t be any major progression because that would prevent the goal of ensuring that you can just wander right over to Gannon and beat the snot out of him with a stick after you wake up without too much trouble. Morrowind worked like this too, if you felt like it you could head right up Red Mountain and try killing Dagoth Ur even though your character probably doesn’t even know who the hell he is yet. But it’s not going to work.
The final point really gets to me. New items and abilities were such a great part of pre-BotW era Zelda games. I get why they did it. The open world being so large means you aren’t likely to want to re-explore the same location again once you get the requisite item. It’s a sacrifice they made to avoid gating content off and allowing you to go anywhere and do anything at any time. I just don’t really think that sacrifice is worth it.
TOTK doesn’t really address any of these problems from BOTW. It does address things like enemy variety, and dungeons/bosses (barely), but both games share so many of the same issues I struggled to get through TOTK.
I disagree with all and every single point you made, to the point that I think the complete opposite about most of them. So I guess those are subjective, not objective issues, and the game is not for everyone. I don’t think every game has to be for everyone, but it’s clear looking at popularity, sells, and cultural impact, that both BotW and TotK are liked by a huge amount of people just as they are. And I for one would definitely like to have a third installment.
I think if you disagree with all of those points so surely, then you need to play more non-nintendo games.
Obviously you can still love these games even if you’ve played a bunch of other stuff, but a lot of the specific points I’ve made are pretty dang objective in the context of the wider gaming space, not subjective. The world is objectively very empty compared to other open world titles (especially new ones but even some that were out in 2017), the combat system is objectively very simplistic, the side quest rewards are objectively not that useful in the context of the game, the progression is objectively very lackluster after the tutorial areas, etc.
You can have a difference in opinion that’s totally chill, and you can prefer Nintendo games that’s also totally chill. It’s just whenever I speak to people about these games such as yourself, and I hear them say things like what you’re saying, it’s almost always been an indicator that this person is either a huge Nintendo fan or just hasn’t played many other titles that would be in this same genre. BOTW and TOTK are good games but they have clear flaws.
The thing is, can you make any objective arguments towards any of them?
Because here’s mine:
Yes, the world is empty and boring, because all you’ll really find by wandering around are Korok seeds and “enemy camps” with the same few types of Bokoblin. If you’re lucky you’ll find a dragon somewhere or oh, look, there’s Eventide and Tarry Town, the two only tiny drops of interesting content in this oceanic heightmap of a game outside of the main quest.
As for clunky movement, I guess they’re just frustrated by the jump button? I do disagree about it being clunky but, then, I disagree with the whole principle of controls being “clunky” unless you’re talking about something like Dwarf Fortress.
Yes, the combat system is absolutely shallow. You get a single multi-hit string and a charged up swing for each weapon type and… that’s about it. More importantly the way you engage enemies is just… they do their one big swing that leaves them wide open, you knock them around like a ragdoll. It’s just not particularly fun. Yes, you can mess around with the sandbox, but for most people that really means “spam bombs” and more importantly, straight-up combat is actually easier while it should be the other way around. If you can just autopilot your way through fighting things it’s just not all that fun.
Weapon durability… really just please come up with an actual argument for it. It made sense in Wind Waker where these weapons weren’t being used as “rewards” for exploration because Wind Waker actually had a traditional LoZ style item system. In a game where weapons disappear after one significant fight, don’t reward people with a fancy sword after a significant fight. It’s just a pointless treadmill.
The story- The only LoZ games with anything resembling an interesting story are Majora’s Mask, Skyward Sword and maybe Wind Waker. I’ll always argue that Nintendo never actually had any notion of these games existing in a “timeline” beyond vague references until they realized that superfans kept coming up with their own, and more importantly, these stories are intentionally shallow as hell. Characters have zero depth, the plot is forever a retread of old ideas, there’s little to no actual world building beyond what fans have done for Nintendo themselves.
Shrines repetitive? It depends on what you’re looking for, but it can’t be argued that they’re no classic Zelda dungeons. They’re like one teeny-tiny chunk of traditional Zelda dungeon, all split up, all with no context beyond “hey we hid all these spirit orbs away because gameplay”. Traditional Zelda dungeons had interesting themes and at least the illusion that you needed to conserve your resources because you were, y’know, stuck in a dungeon.
Side quests: Like weapon durability, how could you argue that the side quests in these games aren’t unrewarding? All you’ll ever get from them are consumable items. That really sort of just sucks.
Getting every tool at the start- Once again, this is just true. An unfortunate result of the “structure” of these games is that there really can’t be any major progression because that would prevent the goal of ensuring that you can just wander right over to Gannon and beat the snot out of him with a stick after you wake up without too much trouble. Morrowind worked like this too, if you felt like it you could head right up Red Mountain and try killing Dagoth Ur even though your character probably doesn’t even know who the hell he is yet. But it’s not going to work.
The final point really gets to me. New items and abilities were such a great part of pre-BotW era Zelda games. I get why they did it. The open world being so large means you aren’t likely to want to re-explore the same location again once you get the requisite item. It’s a sacrifice they made to avoid gating content off and allowing you to go anywhere and do anything at any time. I just don’t really think that sacrifice is worth it.