I disagree with tax & rent being lumped together. I have no problem with my (high) tax rate as it supports education, infrastructure, etc. The outrageously inflated rent goes to the same guy that stole 95% of your pizza in the first place.
Reminder that while the labour theory of value can be practical to understand certain aspects of society, it is still culturally biased and not “objectively” true.
What creates value can only be answered in a cultural framework.
A reminder that the labour theory of value is not a marxist concept. When people wave their hands around and say “labor theory of value isn’t objectively true!!”, they’re shadowboxing a ghost.
Value != price
Umm… Thanks for that unnecessarily aggressive seeming and a bit incompehensible addendum, I guess?
I think it’s more assertive than aggressive.
What part of my response did you find incomprehensible?
Sorry, I interpreted it as aggressive. Figuring out tone in text form is hard and all that. Sorry that I wrongly accused you.
Things I didn’t get:
A reminder that the labour theory of value is not a marxist concept.
Marx hasn’t been explicity brought up yet (at least not in my comment). Only implicitly in the original post. Again: thought you were attacking me and was like “umm… So what?”
When people wave their hands around and say “labor theory of value isn’t objectively true!!”, they’re shadowboxing a ghost.
I thought you meant me, since that was what I was basically saying. 😅
Value != price
Now, that one wasn’t even implicitly mentioned.
I hope you don’t hold my misunderstanding against me.
I was certainly being critical, though it was unclear by your phrasing if you were saying what I thought you were. That’s why I was using passive language.
Marx hasn’t been explicity brought up yet
True enough, but I assume the implicit connection your comment was making to the op was the reference to “your stolen labour value”, which would be a marxist concept, and “labor theory of value” is commonly misused as a counterargument against marx’s central critique of stolen surplus labor. Feel free clarify if I got that wrong.
“Value != price”
Now, that one wasn’t even implicitly mentioned.
Well now i’m confused. If ‘labor theory of value isn’t objectively true’ isn’t making an argument about the price of a commodity not being equal to the labor it embodies, I am not sure what you’re trying to say by it.
Well now i’m confused. If ‘labor theory of value isn’t objectively true’ isn’t making an argument about the price of a commodity not being equal to the labor it embodies, I am not sure what you’re trying to say by it.
A theory o value doesn’t necessarily say anything about price. As you said: “value != price”.
Then what do you mean by “the labor theory of value is not objectively true”?
I’m not following what you specifically mean.
Could you provide an example of when the theory fails due to a culture’s differing views of value?
There’s not even academical consensus what value actually is, AFAIK. Do preasts add value to anything with their labour? If not: Do social counsellors? What if a priest acts as a counsellor? Ask different economists with their theories of value and you’ll get several answers.
Economic theories aren’t as rigid as theories from the natural sciences or mathematics. They are dependent on the culture in which they are perceived. A non-capitalist society would have different theories or value (or none at all) than we do.
This guy can explain it properly, I’m not an economist and kinda regret making that comment.
I actually watch Unlearning Economics, though only his video essays and not his streams. It’s been a while since I’ve seen this one.
So what we’re meaning is how much of Western culture undervalues care-giving since it produces no product, so stay at home moms, nannies, therapists, etc.
I thought of another example. In more nomadic and naturalist cultures, actually doing things to the environment destroys value, while leaving it be and allowing it to recover creates value. That is something else that is not accounted for in any theory of value to my knowledge.
An example would be American Indians in their dependance on foraging and hunting. I think that gives creedance to the idea that they thanked the things they harvested/hunted (I don’t know the factuality of that), since from their perspective they were only a burden that the ecosystem was ‘kind’ enough to support.
Thank you for that comment. I feel like finally someone understood what I was trying to get across.
Probably formulated it badly, but still: the answers are a bit exhausting.
EDIT: Thought of another example of your qase where harming nature decreases value. Having to buy carbon certificates for releasing CO2 models the destruction of value by polluting the environment.
Caregivers may not produce a product but they provide a service.
We have no issues with the plumber providing you a service and getting paid well for it, I don’t know why we have such a hard time with caregivers… :(
How is it culturally biased? It’s a theory of how exchange value functions within capitalism
You’re right. It’s one theory. There is however ongoing debate on which theory is “correct”.
This vid explains it quite well and with Simpsons clips so the hour of video is bearable:
Yeah but the way you said made it seem that value (exchange value according to Marx) is determined by cultural factors, thus making it untrue. The debate around labour theory of value have existed since the 19th century.
I was talking about the theory, not value. Sorry if that didn’t come across.
Now that I think about it: isn’t value culturally determined in many things? Why are apple products more expensive than other computers with the same specs? Why is a ticket to a Billie Eilish concert more valuable than one to my neighbor’s indie rock band?
There is a difference between use value and exchange value
isn’t value culturally determined in many things? Why are apple products more expensive than other computers with the same specs? Why is a ticket to a Billie Eilish concert more valuable than one to my neighbor’s indie rock band?
It really seems like you’re conflating ‘value’ and ‘price’ here.
Don’t the two correlate?
A theory o value doesn’t necessarily say anything about price. As you said: “vale != price”.
Don’t the two correlate?
What a mess we’ve made.
YES
I know my enemies
They’re the teachers who taught me to fight me:
✔ Compromise
✔ Conformity
✔ Assimilation
✔ Submission
✔ Ignorance
✔ Hypocrisy
✔ Brutality
✔ The eliteGenious comment.
Removed by mod
Yeah this meme assumes you’re given the totality of your labor value when you aren’t as a wage slave, the majority of your labor value is stolen by the same company paying you the crumbs
You’ve misread the meme. It is claiming that
the majority of your labor value is stolen by the same company paying you the crumbs
It’s not really stolen if I’ve agreed to share it for a price
There’s something to be said for coercion. Most people have no option to live without ‘agreeing’ to such a sharing model.
Not really the case for me
Great, so you can agree if you want, but most can not.
Sure
You guys have pizza left?
You can’t afford food?
don’t forget insurance
The point of this graphic is that you should dedicate your labour to doing something that you love and also benefits your community.
My wife and I were just talking about this topic and we landed on the Jessie Eisenberg movie VIVARIUM. It’s ab allegory for being trapped in our dystopia where there are forces at work trying to oppress us with useless labour. The fact is, currently, the only choice we have is to discover work that is meaningful for us – personally. My job is a helper job. I pay taxes. I do my helper job knowing I’ve contributed. It lightens the pain of the dystopia while we wait for the top 10% to start paying their fair share again. The Eisenhower tax rates were real.
See VIVARIUM – it may not be a banned film but the corporations sure as fuck don’t want you to see it. Welcome to your world.
Sir, this is a Wendy’s. And that is a pizza. And you know damn well you ate it yourself.
