- cross-posted to:
- politics
- palestine@lemmy.ml
cross-posted from: https://lemmy.ml/post/21396125
Stephen Starr in Hamtramck, Michigan
Mon 14 Oct 2024 11.00 EDT
- zbyte64 ( @zbyte64@awful.systems ) 37•1 month ago
She had so many chances to make this election easier. Could have had a Palestinian talk during the DNC, and that would have likely changed this story.
- Queen HawlSera ( @HawlSera@lemm.ee ) English20•1 month ago
Because Trump who literally said Muslims should wear a “Special ID at all times” back in 2015 is obviously gonna be much better…
- تحريرها كلها ممكن ( @PanArab@lemmy.ml ) 7•1 month ago
Biden/Harris aren’t even giving them the chance to wear the special IDs, they wiped out Gaza and took out a few churches and Christians in the process too
- Queen HawlSera ( @HawlSera@lemm.ee ) English3•1 month ago
Trump meant that for Muslims living in America.
Additionally, Trump has talked about wanting to use nuclear weapons in Gaza multiple times. So I don’t know why you think he’s “better” for the region
- تحريرها كلها ممكن ( @PanArab@lemmy.ml ) 3•1 month ago
No one said he is better but neither are Democrats, both are equally awful for the region.
- Queen HawlSera ( @HawlSera@lemm.ee ) English2•1 month ago
Some have falsely claimed he wants a ceasefire, while he has talked about “ending the problem quickly”, he has clarified he means by blowing Palestine straight to Hell by throwing everything America’s got at it.
- تحريرها كلها ممكن ( @PanArab@lemmy.ml ) 1•1 month ago
Which is what’s happening already under Biden.
- apotheotic (she/her) ( @apotheotic@beehaw.org ) English13•1 month ago
Context:
- I am not an american, so there may be some missing knowledge for me about the american electoral system.
- I abhor Israel’s genocide in Gaza, and I abhor the biden administration’s support of (and Harris’ seeming continued support of) the genocide.
- My understanding is that Trump is just as, if not more supportive of the genocide in Gaza, and on top of this has his sights on doing some truly terrible things in the US re: minorities, trans rights, etc
So with that context, my question is thus: It seems clear that Trump wouldn’t change anything about the genocide in Gaza, and that he would bring more evil than the current status quo. So if you’re an american voter, you obviously can’t let Trump get in. But, Harris is gross to vote for as well, even if its a “lesser of the two evils” thing. What do you do? As far as I understand its basically one or the other, you dont really have any third party to vote for right?
- Cowbee [he/him] ( @Cowbee@lemmy.ml ) 12•1 month ago
It’s more of a difference in practical values. At what point does the “lesser evil” itself become intolerable evil? Some people insist that you should vote for Hitler over 101% Hitler, that there is no intolerable level as long as there is a miniscule difference. Others have firm red lines in the sand, like genocide, where they advocate for abandoning them and pushing as hard as you can, even advocating for moves outside the electoral system like revolution.
- apotheotic (she/her) ( @apotheotic@beehaw.org ) English1•1 month ago
So to put this in more practical terms, one would neither vote for Hitler or 101% Hitler, and instead vote for The Other Person who Isn’t Much Hitler At All, or abstain or something, and protest and take action in other ways?
- Cowbee [he/him] ( @Cowbee@lemmy.ml ) 3•1 month ago
The “correct” answer is to vote for “Not Hitler” and join a revolutionary org, such as FRSO or PSL in the US.
- averyminya ( @averyminya@beehaw.org ) 4•1 month ago
Which candidate who opposes both Russia and Israel’s genocide has a path to the presidency? Legitimately, fully feasible path in 3 weeks to get this candidate to have 270 electoral votes?
- Cowbee [he/him] ( @Cowbee@lemmy.ml ) 2•1 month ago
The point isn’t to win the presidency, but to show the votes the Dems threw away by being genocidal, and again, joining revolutionary orgs.
- averyminya ( @averyminya@beehaw.org ) 4•1 month ago
So throw the country to the fascists polluting our homes, destroying our education system, rallying up people who enjoy committing hate crimes to other Americans. It’s the Democrats fault we will repeat the events of 2016.
Got it.
- Cowbee [he/him] ( @Cowbee@lemmy.ml ) 2•1 month ago
Fascism is Capitalism in decay, electing democrats doesn’t push fascism back.
- ResoluteCatnap ( @ResoluteCatnap@lemmy.ml ) English11•1 month ago
Your understanding is solid for not being an American. You’re not missing anything substantial-- people who are voting 3rd party think that the “dems need to learn” and that the dems can’t do whatever they want so their vote is supposed to be a punishment. But as you point out that if they really cared about this issue then they would vote for Harris because trump will do worse on this issue and all around. The time to make changes to our political system is not when you vote for president, but in the years leading up to that.
In other words, people voting for 3rd party or Trump over this issue are morons. It sucks that our political system is what it is but if you knowingly vote for anything other than the candidate promising not-fascism, then you are supporting fascism.
I just hope enough democrats understand this. I’m not happy with gaza either but our country is still recovering from the first shit show presidency of Trump, and fascists are closely watching this election.
- jatone ( @jatone@lemmy.dbzer0.com ) English0•1 month ago
In other words, people voting for 3rd party or Trump over this issue are morons
incorrect you’re missing context of reliably blue states. I most certainly dont need to vote for democrats and can essentially do what I want w/ respect to the presidential ticket.
All the nonsense from the liberal idiots in the democratic party miss this critical contextual bit of information. I happily vote 3rd party whenever there is one that aligns more closely with my goals. its just rare one does; because it simply doesn’t matter in my state for the outcome.
My ballot typically goes:
- 3rd party for pres
- dem/independents for most local positions
all this blue no matter who are just brain dead lunacy by the party is essentially: The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final and most essential command.
Hopefully some day we’ll be able to have reasonable conversations about the toxicity of the democratic party but we just are not there yet and unfortunately the Ukrainians and Palestinians are paying the price in blood and harris doesnt have the backbone to challenge her corporate owners. Biden lost my support when he broke the train union strike. I believe he and harris would have broken the port workers strike as well if it wasn’t a month before the election.
things that prevent me from voting for harris:
- wont enforce the leahy laws with israel. israel absolutely does have a right to defend itself, it doesn’t have a right to be supported by the US tax payers. if the MIC wants money there is a far more moral war going on we can increase support for. (HUGE red flag)
- wont commit to keeping Ms khan. (HUGE red flag)
- i don’t trust her w/ respect to union support. I believe she’ll break unions just like biden did. which is why he lost my support.
- her continuous attempts to gaslight the american people over biden’s mental decline makes her untrustworthy as an individual.
until then I’ll continue advocating for and campaigning for election reform and primarying useless democrats. She could probably swing my vote if she commits to khan and never breaking a strike as those are important to the health of our country and economy but at this point its clear she wont shift.
- ResoluteCatnap ( @ResoluteCatnap@lemmy.ml ) English2•1 month ago
I’m glad you took one sentence out of context to tell me why youre not a moron. Good for you… the context of the article is a swing state. While your ticket may not matter, in your opinion, telling this to other people is in direct support for facism. Gtfo
Edit: oh and i missed that its a 2 day account only commenting on this shit. Say hello to Russia for me and welcome to my block list
- jatone ( @jatone@lemmy.dbzer0.com ) English0•1 month ago
you’re upset I deconstructed your entire position in a couple of paragraphs and think burying your head in the sand will resolve the obvious problems with your positions. (hint: they won’t)
learn how to influence your politicians. voting for them when they dont support your interests doesn’t work. being afraid of their opposition doesn’t work. What have you done to fix FPTP voting issues? What have you done to prevent genocides?
I only quoted a single sentence you’re entire post was predicated on it. you’re the only moron because you lack contextual awareness; unlike the Palestinians in swing states. Good on them and I wish them the best of luck, I’m rooting for them and emailing my congress critters so they know that harris doesnt have my support is she continues her israel non-sense and issues with khan.
edit: seems like the pressure is working now harris just needs to come out and say she’ll continue the enforcement of leahy and a cessation of hostilities. keep up the good work people few days left.
- geneva_convenience ( @geneva_convenience@lemmy.ml ) 7•1 month ago
This is limiting the scope of thought to four years.
Democrats winning means genocide becomes fully normalized forever, whereas if Trump wins it means four more years of genocide but the democrats will have learnt they cannot ignore the left.
In the short term Trump will be more damaging, but in the long term it is very debatable which is worse.
- darth_tiktaalik ( @darth_tiktaalik@lemmy.ml ) 3•1 month ago
Democrats winning means genocide becomes fully normalized forever,
Even more so if the guy who openly said murder is a genetic predisposition wins.
Who for the record is Donald J Trump.
- geneva_convenience ( @geneva_convenience@lemmy.ml ) 2•1 month ago
Genocide is already normalized for republicans. If democrats get to normalize it as well, there will be no non-genocide option in 2028.
When you never draw a red line you signal that they can keep pushing the boundaries of evil.
- apotheotic (she/her) ( @apotheotic@beehaw.org ) English1•1 month ago
Hmm. I can understand this perspective. I guess its a bit tough. As a trans person I would find it very hard to do anything that isn’t actively working against trump being in power, because if he gets in power it’s very likely that my life will be in danger (if I was an American). But at the same time, as mentioned before, it wouldn’t be an easy sell for me to be voting pro-harris.
I guess your scenario doesn’t mean you’re going to vote for trump, just that you’ll vote third party or spoil your ballot?
- geneva_convenience ( @geneva_convenience@lemmy.ml ) 1•1 month ago
Directly voting for Trump will have the opposite effect. It will show democrats they should be more like Republicans because everyone was voting for Trump.
By putting the votes in a visible place (a third party), the democrats will observe they are missing out on a lot of votes which are directly cast for a left wing agenda. And instead of Dick Cheney they might show up with a left winger in their next campaign to win over those third party voters.
Donald Trump will not be a benefit in the short term. But rewarding democrats for only appealing to right wing voters will not be a benefit in the long term. They will shift even more to the right in 2028.
- apotheotic (she/her) ( @apotheotic@beehaw.org ) English1•1 month ago
Yeah, that’s what I thought.
- authorinthedark ( @authorinthedark@lemmy.sdf.org ) English3•1 month ago
they exist, but the electoral system is designed to keep them from gaining power. And since (most) states use first past the post, secondary preferences aren’t taken into account, so if you vote third party when you would have voted for Harris otherwise you increase Trumps chance of winning. There’s some argument to be made that voting third party or not voting might influence democrats in the future to change their policy to appeal to those voters but I don’t know how realistic that is.
- P_P ( @PortoPeople@lemm.ee ) English1•1 month ago
You always vote against the fascist and the guy who staged a coup. It’s that simple.
- Cethin ( @Cethin@lemmy.zip ) English1•1 month ago
This is correct. There are plenty of actions to be taken outside voting, but voting is quick, easy, and the bare fucking minimum. Vote and do whatever else you think you should do. If you don’t vote (or just throw it away) then you’re complicit in whatever happens.
- macabrett[they/them] ( @macabrett@lemmy.ml ) 0•1 month ago
So by that logic, if you vote for Harris and the genocide continues then you’re complicit in whatever happens.
In fact, if you voted for Joe Biden, you’re already complicit in a genocide.
- Cethin ( @Cethin@lemmy.zip ) English1•1 month ago
Sure, and you have to accept your actions and your reasoning for them, and there are very good reasons to support Harris instead of Trump. Doing nothing and pretending you aren’t complicit doesn’t actually make it true. Your gotcha question is only appropriate for children.
- macabrett[they/them] ( @macabrett@lemmy.ml ) 0•1 month ago
Not supporting Harris is not the same as supporting Trump. Hope this helps!
- تحريرها كلها ممكن ( @PanArab@lemmy.ml ) 11•1 month ago
Not just in Michigan ;)
- darth_tiktaalik ( @darth_tiktaalik@lemmy.ml ) 9•1 month ago
Great so now we can have a more certain Trump presidency. Why limit yourself to just one genocide when you can have this guy in power here too:
“How about allowing people to come to an open border, 13,000 of which were murderers, many of them murdered far more than one person, and they’re now happily living in the United States. You know now a murder, I believe this, it’s in their genes. And we got a lot of bad genes in our country right now,”
- geneva_convenience ( @geneva_convenience@lemmy.ml ) 5•1 month ago
Biden already started the Lebanon genocide. You’re going to need to up that Trump talking point to three genocides.
- darth_tiktaalik ( @darth_tiktaalik@lemmy.ml ) 7•1 month ago
Here’s a talking point for you, but from the Republican party’s policy platform:
DEPORT PRO-HAMAS RADICALS AND MAKE OUR COLLEGE CAMPUSES SAFE AND PATRIOTIC AGAIN
By “pro-Hamas” they mean all the free Palestine protestors.
- geneva_convenience ( @geneva_convenience@lemmy.ml ) 4•1 month ago
Is that the third or the fourth genocide?
- Che Banana ( @The_Che_Banana@beehaw.org ) 9•1 month ago
Oh boy, that’ll teach 'em…you know, the party where they absolutely listened to the people who didn’t want Hillary just because “it was her turn”.
yup…this’ll fix it!
- darth_tiktaalik ( @darth_tiktaalik@lemmy.ml ) 2•1 month ago
If anything handing over the presidency to Trump would be incentive for Democrats to move further to the genocidal right.
- enbee ( @enbee@lemmy.blahaj.zone ) 6•1 month ago
stop paying your taxes too, that shit is funding the genocide
- basmati ( @basmati@lemmus.org ) English3•1 month ago
Way ahead of you.
- No_Eponym ( @No_Eponym@lemmy.ca ) 2•1 month ago
Right behind you (͠≖ ͜ʖ͠≖)
- sunzu2 ( @sunzu2@thebrainbin.org ) 1•1 month ago
My man… This the FO stage and TAXMAN will deliver FA stage.
Tax evasion is a crime to served for the elites and their regime whores.
Wouldnt recommend this to anyone unless you are in the club
- TheOubliette ( @TheOubliette@lemmy.ml ) 5•1 month ago
Good!
- Miss Millie ( @limitsomething@lemmy.ml ) English4•1 month ago
Why would they even vote ?
- Cowbee [he/him] ( @Cowbee@lemmy.ml ) 11•1 month ago
To show the votes she lost by going in on genocide, instead of leaving it to minimization by the media.
- Miss Millie ( @limitsomething@lemmy.ml ) English1•1 month ago
I know, I was asking why are they even participating when both of them are against Palestinians and will make the genocide even worse … also it will be useless if she won
- Cowbee [he/him] ( @Cowbee@lemmy.ml ) 3•1 month ago
They are voting for Stein and Crúz.
- Miss Millie ( @limitsomething@lemmy.ml ) English1•1 month ago
Got it , thanks
- corsicanguppy ( @corsicanguppy@lemmy.ca ) English3•1 month ago
Good bye frying-pan, hello fire.