So, I was told to not use Signal, so all that is left is Matrix. And I am not techy enough to have my own server and neither are my relatives, so Matrix.org is the only option
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I think there is campaign to get people to use signal, while servers are proprietary and other things are questionable.
It is a great operation for convincing the majority.
Servers are always going to be owned by someone. But the data is encrypted with keys not available to the server. Signal isn’t perfect, and I don’t like some stuff they do, but it’s the best design out there that is also relatively user friendly and doesn’t have holes that are easy to exploit by the server owner.
Who told you to not use Signal, and what reasons did they give? I’m very curious.
It uses phone numbers and is centralized. I personally dont use it cus of those reasons. Also wouldnt switch cus my folk already use matrix so im nt making a bunch of people get another app lol
Matrix is centralized too in practice … & syncs even more metadata than Signal so I wouldn’t call that an upgrade—especially when you see how slow the clients & servers are.
Signal is most likely a fed honeypot.
They are super shady, blocked some important security researchers that found a vulnerability from them on all platforms, and they offer no explanation on why using a phone number is MANDATORY for signup.
No reason to trust signal IMO.
When signal publishes their client source, you’ll need to explain how E2EE on open source clients can be a honeypot
All it takes is a hardware bakdoor.
The open source client doesn’t mean jack shit dude. Telegram also has open source client. Your data lives on their servers not clients and also, even if the server code is open source, there are many ways for a backdoor and violations of privacy in the infrastructure. When you give up your phone number, there is no privacy.
simplex is good as an alternative
SimpleX has some interesting ideas, but also some shortcomings for people who want a practical messaging service. For example:
- It is funded by venture capital, which calls into question its longevity, and even if it does manage to stick around, suggests that it will be leveraged to exploit people once the user base is large enough.
- Its queue servers delete messages if they are not delivered within a certain time frame (21 days by default). Good luck if you take a vacation off-grid for a few weeks.
- No multi-device support. (This means a single account accessed concurrently from multiple independent devices.) The closest it comes is locally tethering a mobile device to a computer.
- Establishing new contacts requires sharing a large link or QR code, which is not always convenient.
- No support for group calls.
I would not recommend it for talking to family members and people in general, which is what OP requested.
It’s worth following the project but it’s a bit too new & the funding aspect leads me to question how it will work in the long run (& being written in Haskell is neat, but boy does it have a lot of churn & maintenance issues in its ecosystem).
Private against who?
Privacy communities need to really drill in the idea of threat models instead of pretending privacy is some linear scale and the ultimate goal is to bury your phone and computer in a lead-lined concrete block underground. Privacy and security are meaningless concepts unless you know who your are protecting it from and what their capabilities might be. I don’t need to hide from NSA Tailored Access Operations because I’m not trying to x the y of the USA. I do need to protect myself from basic scam attackers, copyright trolls and neo-nazi stalkers. And Matrix, along with certain basic opsec guidelines, does that and more for me.
Why would Matrix be the only option? XMPP is significantly better. You can either sign up on a public server or pay a small sum to have your own private server for you and your family for example on https://snikket.org/ or I think https://jmp.chat/ also includes optionally a small server in the subscription.
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I know I am just a normie who doesn’t really know internal workings of them… But in my experience, XMPP is just easier to host, the servers are lighter, they don’t store everything they touch forever like Matrix does, and OMEMO doesn’t break like Matrix’s encryption. Synapse would be probably impossible to run on my VPS, while Conduit and Dendrite are not as full-featured.
OMEMO is a mixed bag. Some clients are still preferring older versions that aren’t the best for security & almost every client does a bad job explaining that new keys are being used need to be verified… Gajim only recently gave a decent in-client pop-up for it, but it’s doesn’t work all the time. That said, this is basically the same issue Matrix has in the space. Both are based on
libsignalif not outright using it, except Signal gets a point of privilege in basically having just one client …one that must be on Android/iOS according to their statements… so they can do a ‘better’ job managing who, what, & how many keys are being used. Many XMPP clients will recommend blind trust by default just because it can be a real hassle to deal with multiple clients & users coming back to less-often-used devices. There have been proposals to fix it, but I haven’t seen anything really take off (meanwhile considering just using the PGP encryption option as less flaky).Yeah, I agree it has some issues. Personally was fine verifying keys tho - either in-person or wherever I met them (usually IRC).
And yeah, the insistence on mobile in Signal bugs me a lot - a desktop is A LOT easier to make private (Linux runs on damn everything) while most phones won’t allow making them not spy due to locked bootloader.
I am just thankful so far that Signal has let WhisperFish exist as an alternative—even if it goes against what they say—which gives me an alternative to the Android/iOS duopoly.
Basically Matrix is to Xmpp, what Bluesky is to ActivityPub. Which all the various issues both technically and related to VC and crypto-currency funding.
In addition Matrix uses a federation model that is extremely inefficient, making it hard to run your own server once you have a few users that join larger rooms. And as a side effect of this inefficient federation model that replicates the database onto all participating servers, it tends to centralize all the metadata on the servers (run on AWS under UK jurisdiction) hosted by the for-profit company that is behind Matrix.
And last but not least they rugpulled everyone very recently and made the only fully functional server implementation open-core to upsell larger servers to their proprietary hosted offering.
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You’re always here to talk to sense into the folks :)
Why is it in your opinion better?
It’s an open protocol, unlike 99% of chat protocols. It’s self-hostable and federated.
It’s IRC’s successor and been around a long time, first popularized by Jabber. Snikket made it even easier to use.
It was also EEEed by Meta and Google to lure users at a given point, with leads some to say “it’s dead” — far from it.
Edit: you may need to ensure OMEO versions are the same across all clients.deleted by creator
They succeded in a way, XMPP lost a lot of users back then in the era when communications where migrating from group-focussed IRC to individual-focused Whatsapp (or their respective walled-gardened messengers).
Better than matrix in the ways 2poVoq@slrpnk.net listed above.deleted by creator
In signal, You can turn off phone number visibility and make it so that you are only searchable by username or qr code. Yes, it’s centralized, but signal is a nonprofit project with generally good guiding ideals. I use matrix for some things and signal for everything else.
Yeah, but it is still just one account per number, so it would make managing alts annoying. Not only is the main client (as well as the major unofficial ones, haven’t found one that doesn’t do that) not support multiacc directly, forcing use of profiles or VMs, but you’re also at risk of whoever rents the associated phone number after you deleting the account (that or you could pay a recurring fee just to retain the number, which is just wasteful).
Probably yes, it depends on your threat model.
If you are using E2EE on a matrix.org account then your message content, attachments (images) and most other traffic isn’t accessible to anyone but the people in the chat. However Matrix isn’t the most private option, it has a number of leaks such as reactions and chat topics (these are being worked on but aren’t close to happening).
For most people Matrix is a very private and secure option and the fact that it is federated is a huge plus. If you want something more secure you are probably looking at Signal (which you don’t want to use and isn’t federated) or Simplex Chat (which doesn’t have multi-device support).
I am really concerned about the dominance of the central instance on Matrix. It has visibility into pretty much every groupchat - if not in content because of encryption, then in all the metadata. I’d rather use another public homeserver.
If it’s low privacy needs (ie you don’t have a state threat model), Signal is completely fine. I use it to talk to my friends. I also use Matrix, though federated Matrix isn’t the best for privacy either due to the amount of metadata that leaks through federation. But federated Matrix is also fine for the kinds of things you would use eg Discord or IRC for.
If you do have a state threat model, I personally think SimpleX is ideal for that, but it doesn’t have as much of a userbase so you probably need people who care enough (eg people actively under threat) to switch to a new platform. Whereas most people I know are already on either Signal or Matrix, and I’m not having particularly sensitive conversations with them either so both work fine.
Yeah, sure. But Matrix is decentralized and federated. So you can pretty much join any instance and be able to talk with anyone on any instance. So why not select another instance
or maybe even self host one yourself?edit: didn’t read the text till the end
you don’t need to use matrix.org. there are several open homeservers, like chat.mozilla.org, but also there are people who host services for others to use. you may have a look at current lemmy hosts, and their other services if they have them.
AFAIK, chat.mozilla.org was set up on modular.im, now element.io, which if it still using the same host, is owned by Matrix.org. So even using a different host means Matrix.org might still have your metadata.
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Matrix is great, you can use another instance though.
why did they told you not to use signal
Matrix.org is centralized like Signal (you can say Matrix is not centralized on paper, but in practice this isn’t remotely true). Both are stockpiling metadata in the West… what’s worse is Matrix’s eventual consistency model means syncing metadata to all servers is a by-design requirement (& also why all servers & clients are slow). There are options like Snikket to take all the hard parts of self-hosting out of the equation, but finding someone you can trust to host a server might be worthwhile. I would be wary of anything centralized.
