It pisses me off to no end when people conflate legitimate criticism of Democrats with tankie rhetoric. The Dems are complacent, listless, corrupt, and lazy. They refuse to stand up to the Republicans until it’s too late or doesn’t matter.
The people want progressive politics: universal healthcare, living wage, affordable housing, education, and food. We want a sustainable future and an end to corporate greed.
The donor class, superpacs, and other sources of dark money in politics are what keep nearly everyone corrupt. Its addictive.
It pisses me off to no end when people conflate legitimate criticism of Democrats with tankie rhetoric.
Last election season went something like this:
Progressives: “Please stop sending weapons to a genocidal maniac who is using them to murder children in order to grab land. And stop actively protecting said genocidal maniac from consequences in the international community.”
Establisment: “STFU tankie!”
How will you get any of that without tanks?
Are you trying to say we can’t have universal healthcare without leftist authoritarianism or do you not know what a “tankie” is?
Though some temporary concessions might be had through labor militancy.
Have you said tanks once?
“Tankies” made no measurable difference in the 2024 election. There’s next to none of them in the USA. Go ahead: ask real people in your offline life what a tankie is, and see if even one single person has even heard that word.
Unless, of course, you’re just applying that word to anyone whos not a Republican that’s criticizing the dems. Then I suppose you’ll find “tankies” everywhere.
It feels like a word that’s just being used to divide the left.
It’s the lib version of “woke”; it’s not even used for its original meaning anymore
“All the tankie college kids who love Hamas lost Kamala the election” ok Kristen I’m sure they’re tankies. Please just finish watching your DVR of the Today show
Thank you for clarifying, because I was confused. Like… ‘Are the Tankies in the room with us now, OP?’
What you’re saying sounds correct, because I don’t know anyone to the left of Harris who didn’t recognize that Trump was worse. While I think that I might have one friend who refused to vote for her in a swing state, I think that the BlueAnon folks really misunderstood the actual consequences of losing support on the left.
It wasn’t really, imo, that those folks wouldn’t show up. The problem was that I think a lot of folks never realized how much young blue-haired leftists dragged Biden across the finish line in 2020 by knocking on doors and convincing their uncles to vote Dem. I said throughout the election that losing those people wasn’t really a risk of losing their votes, it was a risk of losing the core enthusiasm and turnout organizing that Democrats had largely outsourced to Bernie Sanders’ base. And I could be wrong, but all that I’ve seen seems to affirm that this is exactly what happened.
If someone has evidence otherwise, though. please let me know.
What you’re saying sounds correct, because I don’t know anyone to the left of Harris who didn’t recognize that Trump was worse. While I think that I might have one friend who refused to vote for her in a swing state, I think that the BlueAnon folks really misunderstood the actual consequences of losing support on the left.
I do find it funny that .world and their ilk will swear up and down that Blue MAGA and BlueAnon aren’t real things, but then will swear Tankies are a thing non-stop in American politics when none of them can agree on what they look like or do.
You ask a Republican to define woke, you wont get an answer beyond “Anything I don’t like to the left of me.” You ask a Democrat on here to define Tankie, you won’t get an answer beyond “Anything I don’t like to the left of me.”
So long as the person doesn’t defend authoritarianism and any hypocrisy of their preferred candidate, I’ll consider them an ally to me.
What a stupid post. Yeah it’s progressives’ fault mango Mussolini is POTUS /s. This is a talking point manufactured by MAGA handlers that some broadly Dem-supporting people choose to broadcast, now outside the US. This is a type of brainrot that undermines critical thinking, divides the left, and helps elect the right. Canada deserves better
Progressives are separate from tankies. You can have leftist ideals without supporting authoritarians.
You must understand that under first-past-the-post the party that receives the most criticism tends to lose. It’s much easier to pressure democrats into doing the right thing then with republicans.
No one calls themselves a tankie. It is a pejorative term for a progressive. It is used to silence legitimate criticism and helps right-shift politics
(Edit: I think your frustration is really more with the mainstream media and what news they choose to cover and amplify)
It’s the term that describes those communists who cheered on the Soviet Union’s violent crushing of the 1956 Hungary revolution protests.
The term is often used when someone claims they support leftist ideals but pushes for authoritarianism.
I get the original etymology. Nowadays it’s carelessly used and appropriated like ‘woke’
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There was a lot of pressure for the most banal, milquetoast, form of representation ever in the form of having a Palestinian speaker at the Democratic national convention with a vetted speech that involved nothing that would have criticized Israel at all.
Even that was too far.
Either the progressives are powerful enough that you have to take them seriously and give them concessions, or they aren’t and you get to ignore them.
What you don’t get to do is give them nothing and blame them when you lose. Or, I guess you do if you’d prefer to lose the general over letting a progressive win the primary.
Huh, funny that, who knew there is a lot of levers and controls that a primary winner, even one that lost the general, gets.
Progressives are not leftists, they are centrist liberals. No matter how many times Sanders calls himself a socialist, he is never going to call for abolishing private ownership of the means of production.
helps elect the right
Trump, the farthest right viable candidate, was elected because he got the most votes.
Regardless of your feelings about her, Kamala was the most viable opposition to Trump.
Some people were most active being anti-Kamala.
In your opinion, did the anti-Kamala influencers hurt Trump’s election, or did they help Trump’s election?
Anti- Biden/Kamala influencers helped elect Trump. The biggest of those influencers were the mainstream media. The double standard of reporting (Biden/Harris vs Trump) is very well documented. (And the ring-kissing is approaching authoritarian levels now.) Ideas that actual grassroots would-be Democrat voters sabotaged the the Democrats’ success in the election is much less certain, but perhaps a more attractive version of reality than the big-money-funded pro right-wing system we’re up against. Less in-fighting amongst the left please
She was objectively much better than Trump. Hopefully in the future Americans have the single transferable vote for presidential elections so they can vote for other candidates in other parties.
Tankie are leftists, they are not progressives.
And progressives are not leftists, they are centrist liberals. Sanders is never going to call abolishing private ownership of the means of production.
Idk why you’re being downvoted, you’re right.
Because some other db0 user is angry with me and is downvoting everything I say regardless of content.
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The difference is we don’t expect anything good from Republicans. We expect libs to at least try but they’d rather punch left than effectively govern.
I’m sure appealing to the non-existant moderate republicans will work again.
goes both ways i suppose.
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the bit about punching left i suppose.
Lefties are well known for hating on libs, for any number of reasons.
Anyone that uses the term “Tankie” unironically to refer to people to the left of them and the Democratic party are not a part of the left.
It’s always helpful to identify the liberals that are getting “scratched” though.
It’s the good old Red Scare but using the word “tankie” instead of “commie” and the people doing it now are just as devoid of ethics and hard right as the Macarthists were.
It’s a self report on the level of people who use dog whistles so loud they are foghorns. Just a word or two in the right context and you know you can ignore everything else you’ve read by them in the last 30 seconds.
Tankie is when they correlate the industrial growth of USSR as success when every other nation transitioning into a bourgeoise republic had similar growth
Tankie is when they pick and choose traits of Stalin and refuse the facts of his authoritarianism
Tankie is when they ignore the lack of progress in communism in USSR after Lenin died
Tankie is when they make excuses for the failures of USSR by pining them all in the west
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What a clever, pithy response. Not like you could address the actual content of the comment because… Well you know.
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How, exactly, were any of them meaningless? They’re statements describing the views of actual people (and a lot of them are here).
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industrial growth of USSR as success when every other nation transitioning into a bourgeoise republic had similar growth
The differences being that the USSR uplifted everyone equally and not just a capitalist few; and that it developed without abusing imperialism and unequal exchange against the global south (and actually contributed the most to emancipatory movements and was key in the decolonisation of the 20th century and as a reference for worker movements in the west to push for further rights).
Tankie is when they pick and choose traits of Stalin and refuse the facts of his authoritarianism
Tankie is when they reject the big-man understanding of history and instead analyze the material and historical conditions of a particular era.
Tankie is when they ignore the lack of progress in communism in USSR after Lenin died
Tankie is when they point to the doubling of life expectancy in the Soviet Union and the only case of industrialisation of a country in history together with China that happened since the 20th century, excluding subsidised US colonies such as South Korea or Japan.
Tankie is when they make excuses for the failures of USSR by pining them all in the west
Tankie is when you understand that an imperfect but emancipatory movement which surmounted extreme odds, is desirable over the continuation of imperialism
industrial growth of USSR as success when every other nation transitioning into a bourgeoise republic had similar growth
The differences being that the USSR uplifted everyone equally and not just a capitalist few; and that it developed without abusing imperialism and unequal exchange against the global south (and actually contributed the most to emancipatory movements and was key in the decolonisation of the 20th century and as a reference for worker movements in the west to push for further rights).
USSR rather than conducting imperialism instead used gulags as methods to develop the east, and it had used the development of previous white russian factories to continue industrialisation, this only sped up with factors present in Stalinist Russia which many others in the communist party opposed due to the damage it had caused
Tankie is when they pick and choose traits of Stalin and refuse the facts of his authoritarianism
Tankie is when they reject the big-man understanding of history and instead analyze the material and historical conditions of a particular era.
The nature of authoritarian rule essentially purged any opposing socialist whether in majority or minority, which makes him and the regime authoritarian. You just refused it without analysis, instead labelling it big man theory
Tankie is when they ignore the lack of progress in communism in USSR after Lenin died
Tankie is when they point to the doubling of life expectancy in the Soviet Union and the only case of industrialisation of a country in history together with China that happened since the 20th century, excluding subsidised US colonies such as South Korea or Japan.
This is not the only case, and would be the only case if you do not include ww1 and post-ww2, Yugoslavia, Turkey, Bulgaria, Egypt, Siam all had similar improvements, not just South Korea or Japan, and South Korea didn’t even have improvements until far later, seriously? You used these nations to argue?
Tankie is when they make excuses for the failures of USSR by pining them all in the west
Tankie is when you understand that an imperfect but emancipatory movement which surmounted extreme odds, is desirable over the continuation of imperialism
Tankie is when they say ‘good enough’ as essentially ruin their own revolution over the fear that the west will ruin them first, how is communism in one country working out for you?
instead used gulags as methods to develop
Sorry, but that’s already been disproven. The gulag system at its peak had fewer people imprisoned than the US currently does. And at its peak, it represented less than 5% of the total production of the country. This lasted for a total of less than 5 years between late 30s and early 40s. The Soviet Union simply factually did NOT develop with forced labor, and saying otherwise is just proof of ignorance (or willful deception). For further details on this, feel free to check up the data on the book “Farm to Factory” by Robert C. Allen. Really not escaping the “swallowing the State Department propaganda” accusations.
The nature of authoritarian rule essentially purged any opposing socialist whether in majority or minority
“The CPSU purged every opposition. That’s why immediately after his death, the opposite faction which was within the party proceeded to do de-Stalinization instead of continuing with the prior tendency that was solidified in the party”. New documents released these past few years regarding the Moscow trials prove that there WAS a trotskyist/anarchist/SR/fascist/kulak plot to murder Stalin and to eliminate socialism, there’s extensive, sourced discussion in the ongoing series of podcast episodes “the Stalin eras” in the podcast “Proles Pod”.
Tankie is when they say ‘good enough’ as essentially ruin their own revolution
If you use US State Department as your source of information for the living conditions of the country, then yes.
If you use actual metrics such as union membership rates, life expectancy, literacy rates, rates of high education, women in the workplace, crime statistics, poverty rates, inequality rates, industrialisation rates, lack of imperialism and unequal exchange, consumption of art and literature, collective sport activities, access to housing, access to healthcare, retirement age, working conditions, and a myriad more; and actually compare with historically similar countries in the region (Kazakhstan + Uzbekistan vs Afghanistan + Pakistan; Cuba vs Haiti; China vs Indonesia; Russia vs Argentina in the sense that they had very similar levels of development pre-revolution), you may find out that actually-existing socialism is extremely beneficial both for its inhabitants and for the global south.
Thanks. It’s exhausting having to debunk all of the lies from the red scare over and over and over again.
Prison Labor camps in 2025 with the largest prison population on the planet: “normal”
Gulags over half a century ago that ended long before Jim Craw laws did: “Ah, that’s a scary sounding name!”
Tankies aren’t to the left of anyone. They’re a parody of the left that ultimately believe in right-wing authoritarianism in a slightly different hat. Leftist authoritarian is an oxymoron.
Leftist authoritarian is an oxymoron
It is an oxymoron because tankies aren’t authoritarian. Tankies believe in collectivisation of the means of production, democracy in the government and in the workplace, maximal freedom speech and of arts, and welfare for everyone.
What tankies don’t believe in, is in wannabe-good leftism that lets itself be trampled by fascism, e.g. Allende in Chile or the Spanish Second Republic. Tankies believe in actually-existing socialism, which manages to fight imperialism, e.g. defeat of Tsarism in the Russian Empire and the liberation of Europe from Nazism, or the liberation of Cuban slaves from western oligarchs, despite some caveats and shortcomings that are overstated and heavily propagandized by State Department propaganda that libs swallow whole.
Then we need a new word for the pseudoleftists who support authoritarian regimes in Russia and China who are infesting Lemmy.
No lefties in Lemmy support the modern Russian Federation in Lemmy. I beg you to go on .ML or Lemmygrad if you think so, and ask honestly for a full perspective on Russia, its form of government, who it serves, and its role in geopolitics.
I’m a Hexbear user, and users will simultaneously recognise that the Russian Federation is a force for evil towards its citizens (oppression of women and minorities, degrading of the welfare state, imposition of militarism) while simultaneously being anti-imperialist in other regions of the world (look up the news of Niger plans for abandoning its former colonial currency through Russia-supported AES), even if only by opposing the western-imperialist structures. The Ukraine topic is complicated and if you’re willing to discuss it in honesty, I’m open to doing so, but spoiler: Russia fucking sucks and so does the EU/US, Ukraine is fucked either way by sheer misfortune of being in a buffer zone between imperialist powers.
As for China, I’m sorry but it’s not more authoritarian than the EU or the USA. In the US, 1 in 4 black men above the age of 30 have been through the prison system, which if happened in any other nation, we’d call genocide. In the EU, democracy consists for the past 20 years in getting to choose which is the colour and acronym of the party that will impose neoliberal welfare degradation, budget cuts, and diminishing of labour rights. In China, the past year GDP grew 5% and real purchase power grew by above 5% (unthinkable in the west), with the biggest growth being in rural areas. A new integral law of protection of private citizen data against facial recognition was just passed. And if you ask in China vs EU/USA on the level of satisfaction with government and policy (I’ve had several Chinese coworkers who can corroborate this), the satisfaction is immensely greater in China. It’s just that repression through the workplace and by private companies isn’t regarded as authoritarian in the west, when in reality it’s much more pervasive than any other form of authoritarianism.
It is an oxymoron because tankies aren’t authoritarian. Tankies believe in collectivisation of the means of production, democracy in the government and in the workplace, maximal freedom speech and of arts, and welfare for everyone.
Lol… And all of this is cleverly defined by the easy-to-remember term “tankie”. Because when you think of tanks, you think of collectivism, freedom of speech, and everything else you said. Give me a fucking break.
What separates tankies from other leftist ideologies is the authoritarian part. Tankies are authoritarian leftists.
this is cleverly defined by the easy-to-remember term “tankie”
The term “tankie” comes from the people who supported Soviet invasion (using, among other, tanks) of the Hungarian Revolution. Idk if you heard about it, but two weeks ago, the JFK papers released that the leader of the Hungarian revolution was on a CIA payroll… hence proving that tankies were right AGAIN, this time at the event that literally gives them name.
So, when I think “Soviet tanks”, I think of the defeat of Nazism in Europe, and I think of the struggle against American Imperialism. “B… Bu… But fighting against imperialism with tanks is authoritarian!!!”. Again. There’s a reason why the USSR survived the literal Nazi invasion, and Allende couldn’t survive a coup attempt. Stop buying into State Department propaganda and you’ll be a much better leftist. Stop punching left and start punching right.
Yeah no, this isn’t a “everyone who disagrees with me is a Nazi” situation. I know what you’re trying to do here.
Tankie is used primarily by people that have read history without a perspective of historical materialism. So they simplify the rule of nation states into being entirely defined by their economic systems and give zero interest in understanding what causes “Authoritarianism”.
Giving no analysis to why capitalist states like America resort to concentration camps and Nationalism during a period of conflict like WW2. But criticize communist states, with even worse material conditions, for resorting to similar forms of nationalism during a time of much higher threat from outside attackers. And only labeling the later as “Authoritarian” during these times of conflict.
If you’re a socialist/communist state in the last century you have been under constant threat of invasion; or a foreign supported coup. It’s silly to associate the economic structures of a nation based on that. And conclude “communism results in authoritarism”. When the real answer is that being communist means you are under constant threat from the American empire.
It’s such a “dumb guy” take to associate these states entirely in a vacuum of “communism vs. capitalism” while ignoring literally everything else.
The most Authoritarianist state in history has been the United States with its Imperialist invasion of most of the world. It’s such a dumb simplification and double standard to critize the economic system that has been most beneficial to combatting poverty and Imperialism while criticizing the flawed defensive structures that result from resisting poverty and Imperialism.
Its silly to criticize socialist states in a vacuum while ignoring that they are not in a vacuum and have been under constant siege from capitalist states from their very inception.
And unil something acknowledges that fact. It is pointless to attempt to engage in constructive criticism of the the flaws of past socialist experiments.
I’m punching to the right, it’s not my fault the Dems are always standing there 🤷
As always, point me towards someone supporting Trump on here and I promise I’ll give them an earful. There just aren’t a lot of them on here. If I spend less time arguing against voting for Trump it’s for the same reason I don’t spend much time on here arguing against puppy murdering - because most people already agree that murdering puppies/voting for Trump is bad.
Sorry for disrupting the circlejerk, I guess? Like yeah I guess we could spend all our time denouncing puppy murderers and complementing each other over being enlightened enough to recognize puppy murder as bad, but I’d really rather not.
Feel free to visit the new conservative comms and have at it.
Which one? Do you mean the one that’s exclusively anti-conservative posts?
The ee com is the sarcastic one. There’s a new one in world, and another new one somewhere else that are both serious.
https://lemmy.world/c/conservative is described in the sidebar as, “A community to satirize conservtive and right-wing “ideals”.” So no, that’s not serious.
I guess I just need to find the one that’s “somewhere else.” As I said, point me towards someone supporting Trump and I’ll give them an earful." Notably I did not say, “vaguely reference the existence of a conservative boogeyman and I will scour all ends of the fediverse until I find a community with single digit subscribers and I’ll give them an earful.”
The fact that you can’t even point me to it proves my point exactly. Even if it is out there somewhere, it isn’t large enough for people to see and engage with on a regular basis. Also, you’re clearly not seeking them out either, so it seems pretty hypocritical to expect me to do so.
You’re taking this way too seriously. Have a nap or something. Enjoy your day.
Lol.
Are you mentally ill? Wierdos on here are getting nuts.
Seriously blaming the tankies again? How bourgeoisie of you lol
If you want to blame something, blame the media. Both news and social media have completely sold out for profit. You CANNOT have a democracy if vast parts of your population is being misinformed. And this started with talk radio in rural areas many decades ago. And the democrats did nothing - because they are not left. Thanks for all the empty “Hope and Change” Obama!
So yeah, blame socialists all you want but their critique was valid.
You need a revolution or reformation. A massive change in who owns the means of communication to have a free press again that is not purely profit driven. Can you even imagine that? Is that something you would say? No. You’d rather blame and denigrate socialists and call them tankies. Look at the mass protests, it seems the libs aren’t even calling for Trump to step down and demand new election lol. People would rather bow to unjust laws and simplistic principles than believe in democracy. Of course they are all being stage managed.
But this is just pathetic.
Most of the mainstream media is owned by a few rich fucks, corporations who strive to make money. Corporations love fascism because that gives them more power and less regulations, so ofc they do everything in their power to enable fascism.
The biggest lie I was told in school was that the market is thriving in competition, it doesn’t. Corporations always want monopolies, so competitors are usurped and driven out by any means necessary.
The people win when there is competition. Corporations win when the people have no choice but to hand over their money.
The biggest lie I was told in school was that the market is thriving in competition
It is not a lie. What school doesn’t stress is that you have to defend the markets. Corporations want monopolies and citizens must prevent that by nurturing competitors.
I’ll say what I already said during the Brexit campaign - if a politician is caught on provably lying to the public, they should be fined, put in prison and prevented from making ANY public appearances or taking public offices for life.
yeah the like 10 tankies in the US really threw that election…? The takes from people on lemmy are so fucking strange.
This is just a meme designed to divide people who share common interests in opposing corruption and to turn them against each other instead.
Really…? I feel like all the tankie (tanky?) discourse I’ve personally seen has only had vile hatred to say about trump. (namely hexbear)
tell me you don’t actually talk to “tankies” without telling me you don’t actually talk to “tankies”.
Republicans are always evil. They don’t do anything good. Ever. They’re a known quantity. That’s what we expect of them.
We expect the Dems to be better. And they get the smoke when they fail at that. Cutting Corp taxes. Border crackdowns. Genocide. Those are things that should exclusively be the pervue of Republicans. If dems run to the right they will always lose because the right was so triggered by Obama that policy doesn’t matter to them whatsoever. It’s purely teamsport for them. You can’t appeal to them in any way. They see a (D) and vote against that person. Dems would never lose another election if they went only as far left as Bernie Sanders. We would have a perpetually booming economy and a high standard of living. But even that is far too far for the DNC Services Corp. So we get a gameshow host and a car salesman destroying everything.
Republicans are always evil
“Conservatives”, not Republicans. Around 100 years ago the style of both parties in the US was almost exactly reversed.
Dems would never lose another election if they went only as far left as Bernie Sanders
lol
About half of America thought Kamala was too far left. The idea that Americans are secretly socialists just waiting for a real leftist candidate and are willing to tolerate progressively more fascistic politicians in the mean time is simply ridiculous and without any basis in reality.
Not at all. She went too far right and a lot of people stayed home. Cuz one republican is as good as another. They both fuckin suck at literally everything. Except fucking up the economy. Republicans are great at that.
She promised to institute a tax on unrealized gains.
What constitutes “far right?”
Trump has concentration camps. Biden didn’t. One assumes Kamala wouldn’t. If you don’t see a difference, it speaks to how privileged you are.
Trump has concentration camps. Biden didn’t
Uh… The ICE haven’t been created out of thin air in January… You just ignored them before because it was a democrat in the adminstration.
What constitutes “far right?”
Funding genocide in Palestine, running the ICE and deporting more immigrants than trump did in 2016 (look it up), maintaining the military industrial complex, increasing rates of homelessness and prices of healthcare and rent and tuition…
Under Biden ICE wasn’t sending people to extraterritorial prisons without due process.
So, the existence of Ukraine, homelessness and high prices equal “Nazi?”
Under Biden ICE wasn’t sending people to extraterritorial prisons without due process.
No, only Guantanamo operated that way. ICE was still a concentration camp though. Really grasping at straws aren’t we?
So, the existence of Ukraine, homelessness and high prices equal “Nazi?”
Maintaining Nazi policy of genocide in Gaza (failed to mention that one I see), and of economic and police violence (1 in 4 black males above 30 years old have been through the prison system in the US) is Nazi, yes.
Have you ever considered the total failure of any politicians you support might have to do with your hyperbole?
Biden built the camps Trump is using. Check yourself.
What is your definition of “concentration camps”?
Migrant detention centers and prisons were a focus within the “build back better” set of legislature and the ICE raids and campus crackdowns I’m assuming you are referencing are a continuation of the Biden administration’s crackdown from well over a year ago.
If you’re just referencing Guantanamo bay as a migrant detention center then every president since 1974 has been guilty of concentration camps.
If you can appeal getting sent to it, it isn’t a concentration camp.
By that definition the Nazi death camps weren’t concentration camps, nor is anything Trump or Biden having done “concentration camps”.
A 5 minute hearing within a detention center does allow for an appeal, and is used by those with enough wealth/privilege/etc. However I suspect that isn’t what you meant, can you expand on that definition?
Edit: I realized there was also another interpretation which is that all jails, detention centers, police vehicles, etc. are concentration camps.
Trump is presently arguing that the courts cannot bring people back from El Salvador. Er go there is no appeal.
And I would like to see some evidence of courts getting people out of Nazi death camps.
And do you have any actual reason I should believe that?
“Well, lots of people would have voted for her if she put on a keffiyeh and sang l’Internationale.”
Why should I believe that? There is just no basis to believe there is some secret American socialist majority.
Wouldn’t call it a majority. But it’s a bloc that dems cannot win without. That bloc has also been lied to for literally our entire lives. Grown jaded. And won’t vote for empty promises anymore.
Evidently we can’t win with you because sway like reeds in the wind.
So they dodge the support of Progressives and lose because of it? Sounds like they need to support progressive policies. Like Obama did.
Name five policies Obama supported Biden did not.
Historically a lot of R voters would’ve considered voting D if they’d just stop trying to disarm the working class, but D leadership more and more seems to be the party of, “we know what’s best for you” elitism. But the open border policies really hurt D’s popularity. R voters don’t consider themselves racist or anti-inmigration, they just want affordable housing and instead of blaming late stage capitalism, they blame policies that lured over ten million refugees in one presidential term.
Democrats do not and never have had open border policies.
They should work on their public image on that then. Biden kept saying he was working on it but it was complicated and he needed Congress to act. More than ten million entered during his term. Trump cut the rate more than 90% very quickly without action from Congress, mostly by being a hostile asshole and directing agencies to act in kind. Biden’s policies towards them were a welcome mat. Trump has gone too far the other way, but no one can deny Biden’s border policy affected the election.
I would like to see some sources for that number.
I’m not denying that the perception of the border changed things. But it’s not Biden’s fault people don’t seem to get news about it from anywhere but Fox.
I’ve seen numbers reported between 8 million and 12 million, with variation leaning high or low by R or D bias, but even 8 million is not far from what I said. Here’s a government source, although this was written before the end of his term:
“Encountered.”
A word that is nowhere in the article or any of those it links to defined.
We expect the Dems to be better
So the reaction is amplifying the messaging that They Are No Good, while being silent on the rest being worse… Nice makes sense.
We do neglect the fact that most people are ignorant about politics. That is a problem we have. We see glaringly obvious things that others seem to miss entirely. Obvious thing is obvious to us.
Right wing policy is shit. That’s like observing that water is wet or space is cold to us. It’s just obvious. So clearly that’s our bad.
Well yeah, what kind of messages are going to filter into conservative spaces? Just the “libruls bad” stuff, honestly.
Yes it was the “slight corruption” that “tankies” are criticizing Dems for. Give me a break.
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Oh no dems are not perfect let’s Satan/Hitler win to teach them a lesson!
Like bruh try won’t learn but let’s get rid of Satan/Hitler first. And ill be first to turn on them.
If so many people refused to vote for Democrats because they were too far right, then the Dems should have moved left. If Leftists are too small a group to matter and the Dems are right to court the right then stop complaining when Leftists don’t vote for you. You can’t have it both ways.
Dems are not progressive they move to who votes. Team lefty hate the choices so opt out. Meanwhile DNC sees right voters consistently vote and move to court them. DnC is not on our side they are on their side. They said they are not the opposition party. We all know that. But they are opportunists so more left votes since they will move left. Especially if the GOP is no longer a viable option. Hence why I say turn on them after the GOP is voted to hell.
Like bruh try won’t learn but let’s get rid of Satan/Hitler first. And ill be first to turn on them.
The democrats have literally funded far-right republican candidates because they know you’re operating on this logic. Trump himself was part of this “pied piper” strategy.
Yup as other said they will move to lose before they go left. Think about why that is. Cause if the gop is gone they are the next target. So they do crap like everyone mentioned. They just want donations. GOP is their boogeyman.
The strategy outlined is vote to make gop not viable. Then progressive dems will have more free to form new party. Threat of gop prevents this. Afterwards DNC replaces gop as right party. If that plan doesnt sit well with you please vote third party. Its a drop in bucket but oceans are made of drops.
Honestly I don’t understand the logic of that approach at all. What makes you think the GOP will eventually become nonviable? I feel like people making this argument in the past relied on the assumption that young people and minorities would always be consistent democratic voters, but that hasn’t held up, because they blew it. If you recognize them as being shit, then what gives you the confidence in them to think that they’ll achieve total political dominance?
If that plan doesnt sit well with you please vote third party. Its a drop in bucket but oceans are made of drops.
I do, and I appreciate you respecting this choice.
Very fair point and i acknowledge it could 100% be naive if demographics dont age out gop members. But I do. Why? Well personal experience. 2016 I hated dnc and got swooped up in the Donald. 8 years later I tried to explain to everyone this is the same crap and not to be deceived. My message didn’t reach but people may learn the hard way. If next election stays the same demographics then I got to find a new path. Cause you’re right.
As for political dominance, There are only 2 viable choices. At some point age out and constant right moves the DNC will be the less radical right party. Plus mixed with blue no matter who (for a few years anyway), 3 stock market crashes with gop presidents in 20 years, measles out breaks, and I suspect stronger hurricanes etc, they cant keep it up.
If those 20 mil votes for biden came for Harris or even third party there would have been a huge shake up like I described above could have come sooner. Don’t let anyone discourage your vote!
constant right moves the DNC will be the less radical right party.
I don’t believe it works that way, if it did, Kamala and Clinton would’ve both won. The DNC is already the less radical right party.
The problem is that voters are more complex than a fixed point on a left/right axis that votes for whoever’s closer to them. For instance, when Democrats pivoted to the right on immigration and tried to pass themselves off as border hawks, what happened was that they threw away a moral argument that they had previously used to criticize the Republicans. People didn’t say, “Oh, now that the Democrats have come around on immigration, I’ll vote for them,” they said, “You were calling them racist over this not long ago, but now you’re adopting the same stance? So the Republicans were right and your criticism was opportunistic and full of shit. Why should I trust your criticism of them on other points?” They actually tried to criticize the Republicans from the right on the issue, citing the fact that the Republicans didn’t go along with Biden’s anti-immigration bill and saying, “We’re the ones who actually want to secure the border, they’re all talk.” Nobody really bought it, and ofc if you were pro-immigration you were expected to still vote Democrat since it’s taken for granted that they’re the “lesser evil.” Meanwhile, this led to a collapse in support among Hispanics, many of whom were willing to support the Democratic party on the basis that Trump’s anti-immigration stance was racist, but when the Democrats shifted right on that issue, many didn’t see a significant difference on that front and voted Republican because they were more aligned on other, cultural issues.
3 stock market crashes with gop presidents in 20 years, measles out breaks, and I suspect stronger hurricanes etc, they cant keep it up.
I don’t have that much faith in the average voter. The democrats will have an advantage in the next presidential election (although they could fuck it up), but after that, like 7 years from now, people won’t remember or care - just like they didn’t care enough about Trump’s first term to not elect him again.
I mean, that’s the way it works with a two party system where they both suck. People see the Republicans sucking and turn to the Democrats because they’re the only other option. Then they see the Democrats sucking and turn to the Republicans because they’re the only other option. You can’t just rely on the other side being bad because if they’re not in charge, people will forget how bad they are. You have to go all the way back to Reagan and H.W. to find a time with two consecutive presidents of the same party - and recently, people haven’t even been going for incumbents, it’s been switching back and forth every four years.
I agree with your points. Not to sound misogyny but I strongly believe it was too early for women. Need a mass die off of elderly jerks before ill believe it. Black men had voting rights before women and we just got a half black president only very recently.
People just need to see past last 4 years or even few months and know what dems are.
Dem betrayal is expected. Don’t bother holding them to higher standard. They are lesser evil. Don’t get annoyed and not vote. Vote third party if anything. Don’t let the greater evil win ever. We do that we will get ratchet effect. Like you described.
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I hate that i agree you are right.
Tankies want Hitler to win and the country to collapse. They are like evangelicals deeply wanting the apocalypse to happen to punish all the people who didn’t agree with them.
Your analogy is even more apt than that. A lot of them are accelerationists/anti-electoralists too, who hold the faith-based belief that making the world worse will magically cause the working class to unite and overthrow their oppressors. The belief is based upon the words of a dead authoritarian and has no historical data to suggest that it is remotely accurate. They are happy to give vulnerable populations as blood sacrifices because of their faith in it somehow resulting in a better world.
