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More men should read The will to change by bell hooks. Patriarchy hurts men in different ways than it does women, we are all oppressed by it, including gender-nonconforming individuals. Patriarchy stunts male emotional health and creates these unhealthy repressed feelings. Rather than blaming women, men should look towards the systems that impact our daily lives and how they force us into little boxes we don’t always fit neatly into naturally, suffocating us and justifying the general subjugation of women, which in no unclear terms exceeds the suffering of men under patriarchy.
I appreciate you taking the time to suggest steps for a better society. I followed the link and read what was available, but there were only a few pages until the index + the front and back cover. I’ll probably look into finding a full copy later. Thanks for thinking about us. <3
I'd like to share my personal story if that's ok. Wall of text incoming and only read if you genuinely want to.
I want to share this because I have an honest question from a place of wanting to be a better person. I realize this isn’t about me, but in order for me to be in service of people other than myself, it is necessary for me to understand some things. I’m respectfully requesting help with that, to you or those willing to educate.
The second part of the meme hits really close to home to me because it’s something lots of men are taught at a young age in a traumatic manner. In my case I can’t count the amount of times I was told to “be a man” or asked if I was “gonna cry like a girl” which could happen literally anywhere by anyone, especially caretakers.
I went to an all boys school. I vividly remember the father of one of my classmates coming to talk to the class when my classmate missed school one day. He begged. Literally, begged to the class to stop teasing and bullying his son because he was going to kill himself any day. This was the 8th grade and was not a one time thing. He was a sensitive kid and got teased for it. He got called the f word a lot in a place and time where coming out of the closet as sexually diverse was considered “valid” grounds for physical violence/abuse by most men. Verbal abuse at the very least.
I was a weird and sensitive kid myself and got teased and bullied as well, but never that much. Was really timid, awkward and shy, but I usually got away with not being beaten up all the time or being straight out emotionally tortured all day like some were, by letting other kids cheat off me. This got me “protection” from some bullies that sat next to me. When I think about how I felt back when I was a kid, all I can remember is fear and wanting to be invisible. Constant fear. I had a whole lot of anger too, but usually lashed out on myself alone. Too scared of everything and everyone to get angry at anyone but myself. My family setting wasn’t a picnic either, but that’s a different story.
Basically, any time anyone gave me any kind of attention, including my parents, I perceived it as a dangerous threatening situation that made me feel uneasy.
I realize most people have been wronged by one or more men in much worse ways. I’m sorry and those of us who have harmed or still harm have no excuse. I shared my story so you understood what became my responsibility and duty to unlearn and remedy to not continue the endless samsara of victimization. I genuinely have been putting in the work I’ve found useful to help me stop causing people harm. Have taken this very seriously for more than decade now.
Here’s my question, in honest good faith.
Do you understand that a book that is intended to be used as a blueprint for positive masculinity that begins by requiring men to “understand patriarchy” can feel, to some men, like when catholic missionaries went to “uncivilized cultures” and made sure everyone “understood the gospel” and was very clear about having original sin and being impure and them needing to be saved?
This is not a rhetoric device I want to use against you or anyone. I am requesting empathy and suggestions on how to deal with this. Like, do you understand that it feels like some people are telling us men that we are devoid of value or have no legitimacy as humans unless we adhere to a specific belief system or “treatment”? Do you have any advice or suggestions for us or idk can you offer insight?
I realize many broken people such as myself and my classmates can become full grown monsters and society should do something that avoids monsters being bred and to treat, lock or remove people that have become monsters.
I just want to know if you understand this, and if you do, my request is you please share your thoughts.
Having read your story, I think you’ll actually love what bell hooks has to say, here. When I said patriarchy affects men and women in different ways, your story is exactly what I mean. Patriarchy puts men into very narrow boxes of what is deemed “acceptable,” and destroys what is outside that boundary. Women are impacted more by patriarchy than men are, but The will to change is a call to action to liberate both women and men from its shackles. It’s a deeply empathetic work that touches on stories very similar to yours, not a condescending authority piece. hooks writes with a deep love and a desire for herself to grow as well, frequently she speaks of her own mistakes and negative feelings towards men such as her father, and how she came to forgive and love him.
Trust me, you’ll love this book by the sounds of it.
Thanks for reading. Gonna look it up right now.
No problem! As a pansexual man myself, who was often bullied relentlessly for being sensitive myself (I was closeted my whole life through schooling and am only recently coming out more), I never felt like hooks was invalidating my experience in any way.
I’m really sorry about what you has to deal with in your past. <3
I’m about 1/6th through the book now and feel the same way.
I mean, if i’m being perfectly honest, i feel like the term “patriarchy” is a little unfair but also I get why it would be chosen and a necessary concept to build from. I guess I feel like no one sex or gender built society on their own and the suggestion of attribution by nomenclature feels like a misleading simplification. This is not something that i’ll lose sleep over, though, and i’m open to hearing out why i’m wrong.
Gonna get back to the book now. It really is a compassionate message. Thanks again.
Glad I could be of help!
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I support mens health.
Ive a million stories of hurt men who didnt deal or heal well with their hurt, and ended up hurting others (and themselves) for it. Usually its some tragic thing that happened when they were young and never dealt with it, because culturally men have been told to shove it down and man up for decades at least. But, I’ve been told many a tragedy from male family members, friends and ex lovers. And then watched them go from victim to abuser, or some other consequence, and its sad
Men should be taught, and allowed to express themselves. Its literally okay to cry, its a process of emotion.
Support fellow humans
this seems like a good application for LLM ddg llama3.3 “The Will to Change: Men, Masculinity, and Love” is a book written by bell hooks, published in 2004. The book explores the concept of masculinity and its impact on men and society. Here are some key points from the book:
- hooks argues that traditional masculinity is based on a patriarchal model that emphasizes dominance, control, and aggression, which can be harmful to both men and women.
- She contends that this model of masculinity is rooted in a fear of vulnerability, intimacy, and emotional expression, which can lead to violence, addiction, and other forms of destructive behavior.
- hooks suggests that men need to develop a more nuanced and inclusive understanding of masculinity, one that values emotions, relationships, and mutual respect.
- She also argues that men need to take responsibility for their own emotional and psychological well-being, rather than relying on women to care for them.
- The book explores the ways in which patriarchal culture perpetuates violence, racism, and homophobia, and how these systems of oppression intersect and reinforce one another.
- hooks emphasizes the importance of men engaging in feminist activism and working to dismantle patriarchal systems of power.
- She also highlights the need for men to develop healthy relationships with women, children, and other men, based on mutual respect, trust, and communication.
- Throughout the book, hooks draws on a range of sources, including psychology, sociology, philosophy, and personal experience, to create a rich and nuanced exploration of masculinity and its possibilities for transformation.
Overall, “The Will to Change” is a thought-provoking and deeply personal book that challenges readers to think critically about the ways in which masculinity is constructed and performed, and to imagine new possibilities for men and women to live together in greater equality and mutual respect.
- Since you’ve read it does the book also deal with mistake mismanagement? I think the root cause for male loneliness is societies pressure to not make any mistakes and cancel culture. Men don’t wanna be seen as creepy and therefore don’t even bother talking to women anymore since the standard of not being ugly, compared to tropes fueled by social media is unachievable.
Appreciate the key points!
hooks suggests that men need to develop a more nuanced and inclusive understanding of masculinity, one that values emotions, relationships, and mutual respect.
Yep, written by a woman. Replace that with “value traversing rivers on couches strapped to floats and having a blast with the pals” and you’ll get somewhere.
Valuing something already is an emotion so you’re being emotional about being emotional about something so, yeah, no. Go climb a tree, create a tasty recipe, fix a shoe. Shave the soap.
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There is nothing universally sexier than knowing exactly who you are and being perfectly satisfied with it. Good for you, man. Congrats for the bun in the oven too. <3
A lot of women find empathy sexy. The women who only go for alpha males are the ones you usually want to avoid.
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It’s kind of a thing in certain animals, but not wolves like originally claimed. The certain animals here being mostly primates, so it’s even more applicable.
That said, the politics of social primates are notoriously complex and many cultures have unique behaviors within the species, so there aren’t really any universal rules particularly among the most social groups.
TBH, Silverbacks are actually good role models: Big, bulky, sit around grooming the troupe, know everyone, emotionally support everyone, when someone wants to start a fight, intervenes, “You wanna fight? Yeah, fight me! Both of you at once, if need be!” – and then suddenly the others lost interest in fighting.
Proverbial gymbro speaking softly and carrying a big stick, far from a tyrant, you know the type. Chimpanzees are the closest to us, with warfare and everything. Bonobos are… well, they are what biologists start talking about when they want to get into your pants. Let’s just say there’s a reason you don’t see them in zoos, parents don’t want to hear kids asking those kinds of questions.
Isn’t it weird that for humans, sex is a private matter? Completely singular among all the animals. And that’s independent of social status, like a smaller sea lion seducing a female one while the big hunk de jure leading the pack isn’t looking, it’s universal. Even if sex is a group activity, then that group itself is putting up layers of privateness and propriety. Swinger clubs with fancy dress codes, doesn’t matter if you end up naked but you have to start out in suit and tie.
If a scientist would, today, discover humanity and describe their behaviour they’d be laughed out of any conference, “did you get your notes mixed up”. “Next thing you want to tell us camelopards are real”.
Most people can pull a trigger.
No, they are biologically real, despite it being obsolete nomenclature iirc. Alpha doesn’t equate to “good” though. Just dominance.They exist in most if not all tournament species, but not so much in pair bonding apecies.
You can determine what category species fall under just by looking at average size differences of male and female skulls/other bone.
This provides a ton of information about mating habits, intersexual aggression, likelyhood of infidelity, role of males in raising kids and whole lot more.
Humans are in am evolutionary transition period from tournament to pair bonding.
All that being said, the traits selected to determine alphas can be about aggression and dominance and they can be about beauty, collaboration and territorial. Thia gets complex in birds and primates.
Alao, whatever strategy has the best chances of successfully reproducing and surviving through time does not automagically become legitimate, valuable or desireable. You need an extra ingredient for that. Priorities, which require value.
Reading this, specifically had me think of an old friend i had. He was always sceming. Every time i saw him he had a new one. Weather he was stealing company supplies from his employer, so he could start his own landscaping business, or asking me to use my doordash account, or wanting me to help him start a flower business, which i never helped with any of it because i dont agree with lying/cheating through life, while every bit of his life seemed some backdoor plan- I would have dated him, once apon a time, but ten years into the friendship, he sent me a ben Shapiro video, a d a few years ago, i terminated the friendship. Every thing was transactional with that man. He was good looking and kind, but my god these traits were such a turn off, I dont care if you work at hime depot, or the hardware store- my husband today is a chef- its better than scheming to rip someone off so you can get ahead. Thats selfish imo.
I’m currently a stay at home husband who does all the cooking, cleaning and dishes.
Easy to throw stones when you’re not the one responsible for keeping the lights on.
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You are.
The main problem being that they’re cheapskates and won’t lift a finger for anything not directly benefitting themselves. They don’t know how to cook, and learning anything unrelated to their jobs is seen as a “waste of time”
Maybe they’re stuck trying to get ahead in their career and don’t have the mental energy to focus on anything else. Most single dudes I know are focused on their careers because where they’re at doesn’t meet their needs or isn’t enough to meet their goals even if the goal is as simple as just owning a home and be able to retire someday.
There really is a bit of a catch-22 in my book that’s centered completely around self confidence. If you are proud of who you are, if you are living up to your ideals, you are simultaneously much more attractive to others, and at the same time you realize that you don’t need others - but they sure are the cherry on top.
Pygmalion is real. Belief is a powerful thing. Some may even call it “faith”.
This is why hope is important.
Surely you would learn to cook your own food if you are a cheapskate? It’s so much cheaper making your own, I had to through necessity for a long time. While I already knew a few recipes I generally couldn’t afford them when I moved out. Beef mince? Hah! Not a chance.
Turns out making your own sourdough pizza from scratch is crazy cheap. Cheese is the most expensive part.
Memes is now shitting on genders ? Y’all fuckers don’t know shit about empathy, and about memes either.
Couldn’t agree more, but if you think about it…
I wish we could all come together from all gender identities, nationalities, political affiliations, social strata, educational background, skin color, hair color, favorite music style and belief system and just accepted that while circumstances are different for every one of us, there are a few really bad people, a few really good people and a lot of people that just need to feel like they belong to something in all of those dimensions.
But I guess if we did that, how would the really bad people get their votes or money from us?
I hope toxic men stop being toxic and I’m sorry to everyone that has ever been hurt by a toxic man.
toxic men
Kinda sad and ironic, that the term “toxic masculinity” began as a way to describe how culture manufactures a harmful concept of what it means to be a man, and it seeps into men and damages them like a toxin… but now we use it to mean that the man himself is toxic, undermining the whole notion of thinking of the problem as systemic rather than one of individuals.
Anyway, patriarchy is absolutely demolishing men right now, and the political right is saying “women’s fault” while the left is saying “lmao skill issue”. If we don’t get our shit together and start treating this seriously, we’re gonna have big problems.
The problem with the term “toxic masculinity” is what exactly can we describe as “positive” masculinity? Is masculinity only toxic, or are there positive things that aren’t feminine?
Considering what is “masculine” is a societal construct, so the things I can think of are like: holding the door open for others, walking with people positioning yourself by the road, those sorts of “if something happens, I hope my charred corpse keeps my loved one alive” morbid acts, or in general putting yourself last on purpose.
I don’t know why you’re describing my mother as masculine but she apologises
So… chivalry?
You folk should really check out Jung.
I am of the belief that masculinity and femininity are social constructs, but that they are also not only social constructs and nothing else.
There’s a lot of interesting work around this in studies/interpretations around Jungian archetypes. Structure, courage, strength, independence, rationality, leadership and assertiveness are virtues/traits that are generally (but not exclusively) associated to masculinity. Charm, empathy, collaboration, compassion, humility, intuition, sensitivity, beauty, style and introspection are typically associated to the feminine (but not exclusively).
In essence, i read somewhere (i think an old Tarot book iirc), that which is masculine imposes and confronts, while that which is feminine contains and nurtures. Seemed to make sense, to me anyway.
edit: A quick clarification is that these are typically, at least under the Jungian and broad oriental notions, not considered mutually excluding opposites, just polarizing forces. Like broad, vague and intersecting maps of associations. The Ying Yang symbol illustrates this well. Each side has a part of the other side within itself, and each one needs the other in order to exist.
“Toxic” has a wide range of uses outside just toxic masculinity or just describing men. One of the side effects of a very therapized society is wider recognizing that some people in your life are dragging you down because their behaviour is unhealthy for all parties. Before the reaction groomed mostly into women but men to a lesser degree was to shut up, take the abuse, take the hit to the psyche, self doctor yourself using coping mechanisms that don’t address the problem directly and endure because the pressure was on being a dutiful, selfless sibling, child, partner, parent, friend etc.
Describing people as “toxic”, while like any tool can be used wrongly or hurtfully gives people a tool to shake themselves out of that cycle. When used properly it empowers people to take their own status and wellbeing seriously when they are being taken for granted, abused or bullied so that they can source the problem and engage with people in a way that wins them their agency back. When we talk about “Toxic men” isn’t effectively any different than talking about “toxic siblings” or “toxic friends” or “toxic parents” or “toxic narcissists” The only ways it differs is in the behaviour dynamics of the group in question. These people are all uniquely “toxic” but in each of those cases you probably gain a different picture of what that toxicity looks like. Those are not individuals, they are groups within our cultures the reclassification of which is systemic. What needs to be emphasized is that in all cases nobody should be forced into a relationship of any kind, friend, family or romantic. There is a society wide push for true emancipation of the individual free to establish and demolish social ties based on the merit of the tie.
In some ways this loneliness epidemic we’re experiencing may in part be due to this renegotiation of relationships in a bid to make things better overall. One could argue the development of an expectation for too perfect boundaries is maybe a contributing factor but overall the attitude across the board is “enough is enough” and that isn’t nessisarily a bad thing. If people are not forced into connections at a systemic level they can apply consent and engineer for everyone the understanding that people either must act at the very least decently if not kindly and with respect if they want deep connection.
So much of the discussion around the subject of toxic masculinity devolves into either the idea the people critiquing the behaviour are being mean towards and victimizing men but all discussions of toxic behaviours are not about victimizing the perpetrators, it’s about advocating for better conditions for the targets.
Are you under the impression I’m conveying there is no problem?
No, not really. I didn’t downvote you btw.
Edited my original comment to avoid suggesting that.
thanks! appreciate it! I understand your point now too.
This is just a toxic gender wars meme. Go outside, touch some grass, meet someone nice and move on with life. Memes like this come from and perpetuate the loneliness epidemic.
Accurately observing that the “male loneliness epidemic” is self-inflicted bullshit isn’t “toxic gender wars” except if you are a right wing traitor lunatic.
Edit: if you genuinely believe there is a male loneliness epidemic that is not self-inflicted, you deserve a whole lot worse than prison.
> capitalism
> self-inflictedSure, bud.
Lmao is a worthless traitor dumbfuck trying to pretend that capitalism is the root cause of “male loneliness”? That’s some bottom of the barrel thinking even for incels. Reminds me of the braincel shitbag who said women should be redistributed via Marxism. Shore bud indeed, traitor.
Alienation. Exploitation. Heard of it?
Capitalism has bereft men even of the patriarchal provider role as there’s no fucking time in the day to earn both rent and have any type of social interaction, much less time to reflect on your approach to life. Your position as a gear churning out profit for the bosses has been meticulously designed and drilled into you while you were a kid, blind obedience instilled by teachers and BS “zero tolerance punish the victim” rules. There is no use for you aside from that assigned role, happiness, connection, community, work//life balance? Don’t make a profit. Get out of here with that commie nonsense we have quarterly figures to hit.
Or, maybe, yes, you do have a point: I should have said late-stage capitalism. The internal contradictions are actively eroding it by now.
That’s not at all what people mean at all. Men are not more alienated than any other gender by capitalist lunacy. This “male loneliness epidemic” is a euphemism for late stage male supremacy.
You’re right after that comes the patriarchal, or just gendered, double-whammy: Women culturally do have more of a support network, even just in the “friends hanging out” way, as the male “do things together, chop wood, go fishing” is regarded as work, not leisure, and thus co-opted by capitalism: “What do you need to chop food and fish for, go buy fuel and food are you poor or something”. Thus all the productive time men have is spent in a hierarchical worker-boss environment, never “pals doing stuff”, cue loss of connection, alienation from broader society, loneliness. Going bowling? Time not spent hustling, you’re a loser. That’s your mind on patriarchal capitalism.
Thus, even if the starting conditions inflicted by capitalism are, for the sake of argument, completely even, it still hits men harder when it comes to loneliness. Women are more affected in other ways. This isn’t an olympics, it’s analysis of the material conditions we live under.
Wow yikes. You sound like fun at parties. Go find someone to care about.
For the record, I think there is a loneliness epidemic for both genders.
People who say “you must be fun at parties” deserve a whole lot worse than prison.
Couldn’t agree more, matey :)
- Women are male lonliness
- Everything and everyone is weakness
- I’ve made hating dishwashers my entire personality
- There’s a empathy epidemic
I’ve made hating dishwashers my entire personality
But they're so cute!
They have nice racks too.
Nice rack
Thanks but it’s rude to go commenting on other people’s racks like that, you know.
If you are lucky enough to be allowed to play with them it’s pretty safe to say something nice, but if they’re the first thing you mention or you space out staring at them, it’s like the dishwasher doesn’t even matter and you only care about the rack.
We all love handling a good rack but a good dishwasher isn’t an easy thing to come across. Focusing on just one part is kind of like invalidating all the sacrifices and hard work that are necessary for a functional dishwasher.
Maybe you don’t care about any of that and just want to put your hands on or look at a nice rack. That’s perfectly fine, but if that’s the case you might want to consider getting your own rack.
Have a nice day! :)
consider getting your own rack.
Working on it!
Good luck!
I’ve made hating dishwashers my entire personality
To be fair, I really do hate my dishwasher. It is always like a 50/50 if the top rack is cleaned or the cleaning arm just fell off. Piece of junk.
You can’t talk about women like that bro
Whats a woman?
Mr Walsh you are not welcome here
Boy have I got a video for you!
Technology Connections?
Edit: yep!
Finally got around to view this video. The only applicable tip I have not tried in there is to add some prewash (despite having no spot for it).
So sadly, my dishwasher most likely is just crap.
The guys saying the top three things aren’t necessarily the same as those saying the bottom thing. But there is definitely some overlap. Which is depressing. Though, I mean is that really that surprising given the state of the world and how stupid the average person is?
The loneliness epidemic also effects women. We’re all more lonely and miserable these days. I think really men and women are alienated from each other in large numbers due to internet brain rot. And being too broke to do anything outside except like… go to a public park or a library or something.
The shitty rightwing politics comes after, the average person is too stupid to not get immediately sucked into manipulative rightwing grift when they’re painfully lonely.
I say this as I consume internet brain rot myself. Though at least its on Lemmy and not Tik Tok, Reddit, or Facebook, and its during work, not my free time.
But going to the park or beach is fun. My first date with my partner was drinking cider on a park bench by a river.
Not everyone loves meandering around a park or beach. Though I’ll admit its good for our brains to do so. It always feels like a chore to me, I get bored.
Also was it alcoholic cider? That would explain why it was fun.
Also those places aren’t really great for meeting people and even then you don’t want to make those locations the only dating locations.
Cider is always alcoholic in the UK unless specifically sold as low alcohol. Typically first dates are not the same place you first meet someone.
Typically first dates are not the same place you first meet someone.
I know, but that there aren’t a lot of places to meet people in person without spending a bunch of money is a major problem and meeting people online to date sucks.
My first date with ny husband we went on a walk on a trail near our home. We walked for 6 hours lol
This meme is pathetic and offensive.
Ah, the classic generalization of men and women as singular groups where everyone acts as one.
There are certain shitty men who objectify women and play alphas. There is the general category of men who get shitted at because of it, whether they belong to the former or not.
Sure, being afraid of the shitty folks is a valid reason to be cautious around everyone, as you can’t easily tell one from the other. But saying that all men just made this stuff up while being total asses wouldn’t be fair or helpful.
To be clear: there is a male loneliness epidemic driven by ever increasing caution about men overall. Men are often unfairly denied attention they need because they are seen as potential dangers by women and might be ridiculed for speaking out about their feelings by men (which, in turn, do it to protect themselves from the same treatment in an unhealthy patriarchal culture).
This is not healthy; moreover, being in that state of loneliness and frustration is prone to radicalizing people, making sayings about dangerous men a self-fulfilling prophecy in one case, and just causing a lot of misery in the other.
If you’re a woman, I’d suggest giving a bit of attention to the men around you. There is a million of untold stories there, and making someone open up to you for the first time is a great and rewarding experience. Or just…be there, and that will be appreciated.
Uh where’s the generalization here? The post didn’t say “all men” anywhere in it. It’s suggesting that people who say the first things lead to saying the later things, leading to their loneliness. Not every man is lonely… but a lot who are make everyone uncomfortable because of the shit they say.
Valid perspective; but I think it’s quite clearly implied given the scale of the issue. The male loneliness is real, and shouldn’t be written off as shit misogynists say, even if it was popularized by them. This kind of discarding might hurt men who have nothing to do with misogynistic talking points, opinions, or actions.
I don’t think the loneliness epidemic is uniquely male though. It’s an affliction of this entire generation. There is a specific subset of men that have been radicalized against women as a scapegoat for the loneliness they feel, but the true cause is increasing social alienation driven by capitalism. The specific mechanism not being limited to the commodification of our attention that has been enabled by the advent of high speed internet.
Absolutely! Everyone gets lonelier as we are getting divided; it’s just that it’s even harder on men specifically, as there are additional factors at play. But it doesn’t mean women don’t experience similar things.
I disagree strongly and I don’t think you get what I’m saying. It’s not a competition and there’s no need to dismiss the feelings of one side or the other. If you are a man, and especially if you are occupied by a specific focus on men, you cannot know the extent of women’s loneliness or the impact that it has on women. The same goes vice versa. The issue is too nebulous, too subjective and complexly intertwined with too many different aspects of our lives as humans. It’s a fool’s errand.
It doesn’t matter who has it harder, because the root cause is the same. Addressing this root cause will help every person experiencing loneliness in the modern age regardless of gender. Any other solution is just treating the symptoms and will inevitably result in people being left out and marginalized. People who matter. It will inevitably result in division, which hurts our ability to unite and fight for a common cause.
This stoking of a needless war between the genders is a counter-revolutionary tactic employed by the ruling class to keep us fighting amongst ourselves instead of challenging their power. They want us focused on pushing forward half-measures; measures that can be easily struck down, agitated against, that will keep us going in circles; measures that do not fundamentally challenge the systems that created these issues in the first place and, in fact, depend on the persistence of these issues.
I totally agree with you that gender wars are artificial and meant to distract people from the core issues. Divide and conquer kinda thing.
But that sits exactly at the core of my initial argument. Blaming wide groups of people, among other things, provides completely unnecessary wars out of thin air.
This doesn’t deny the fact that people of each gender may face issues that are gender-specific to some degree. Men are more likely to be socially isolated, women are more likely to become victims of sexual abuse, etc. etc. This doesn’t mean we should measure who has it worse, but it has to be taken into consideration if we want to correct the course and make everyone actually equal. In this case, we need to address specific sources of male loneliness, as there are some factors unique to men that lead to this.
People acting on gender issues together, not as two divided groups, is a great exercise in civil power and unity, which is helpful for any revolutionary activity.
That’s their problem for feeling entitled to human interaction. You need to learn that none of us really matter, and the only one you can trust is yourself.
Learn to be content with just being, and surviving, or perish.
I’m really sorry you feel that way, genuinely, but this deeply antisocial sentiment is not a depiction of a reality that is compatible with human life. Please seek help from a qualified professional. I mean that.
My wife sometimes stops to compliment me because she knows men don’t often receive compliments. I always appreciate that.
That’s how you know she should be your wife :)
But really, this should be more normalized. I’ve heard the opinion that many men see compliments as a way to show sympathy when that wasn’t intended, but I think this is exactly because it’s so rare.
My girlfriend also takes time to compliment me, and I appreciate it.
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Empathy being both a weakness and a sin…
What more proof do you need that America is a failed state?
I don’t understand misogyny at all. What’s it all about? If you were homosexual and were raised in an ancient Macedonian army or something perhaps you wouldn’t see a mother, sisters, daughters, lovers, work colleagues, neighbors, friends but who lives like that? Boys who live in front of a screen and are too anxious and scared to go outside? Racism I can kind of understand if you only have superficial knowledge of other people and cultures.
Once that testosterone kicks in at puberty women aren’t generally a physical threat to men. I don’t really understand all the fear of them. Some women are really, really cool. Like serious friend material and lifelong partner stuff.
Power to control women and force them to have sex with you. A bit like rape, but less crude.
They don’t hate women, they just like to dominate.
80% of car accidents here are caused by wreckless driving by guys.
Guys are more dominant, and dominating women is viewed as misogyny.
Do not misunderstand. There’s no hatred for women.
Except in niche cases like my mate that got his heart broken at age 15 when he was fat, then he went on and dated 5 girls at the same time because he didn’t trust them. Then basically kept 1 of them and is now in a long term relationship. The one girl never knowing that he did that.
He was raised by his grandparents/single mother.
His dad went on to have a 2nd family where he wouldn’t be a deadbeat father. So it’s kinda idk… it’s his stuff.
So I guess there can be some hatred for women when it comes to having a broken heart and trust issues. But that’s mostly for young guys.
Hating people is mostly a dumb thing to do, but it’s not always a choice. You get your heart broken, love turns to hate until enough time passes before it can become indifference and you move on.
Racism… 14 year olds are idiots. They segregate themselves by how they look and sound like and start fighting with eachother.
Russia phobia 😎 well, they done fucked up didn’t they?
What else do we have…
Sinophobia… scary government bruv
Western phobia… I’ll let LMs write that one out
Phobia’s a normal thing, gets eliminated by long term communication
As a fat highschooler, ehen, as a fat woman highschooler, i got rejected so many times. Never once did it make me hate and distrust men. Because every person is their own.
Get fit. Just do it. I started working out when I was 17, been doing for 12 years now. Best investment.
I did.
I was big growing up because my guardian literally kept me in my room, threw McDonald’s at me and called me a fat bitch. I was allowed to go to school, and go to my room from age 12-16. When he was arrested i lost 60 pounds, gained it back though. Then when i was 21 i lost 80 pounds in 11 months, i worked hard, rode my bike to work.
Then, I got pregnant at 25. Gained for that- but lost it all fast with nursing and maintained healthy weight until the pandemic. I liked hiking, and riding my bike to work, and ate whole foods, i had, had fast food a whole 3 times since i was 21. … until i was 32. My male coworkers ate bk for lunch every day, they were thin, our work was hard (i lifted and packed approx 2000-3000 pounds of material we made a shift), so i started getting Bk too. And i got fat.
The pandemic hit and my now husband got the unemployment, so he ordered restaurant food nearly 5x a week. I left my job to support my kid. I peaked my weight again.
Now, at 37 years old, with a special needs child, no walkability in my neighborhood, and no car (we have one car and he works a lot) to drive to the trails… my son at seven, stopped liking hiking anyway, i find myself stuck in my house. (The last time i took him he literally just layed down in the beginning of the trail and refused to move, its kind of funny now). This also was when hubs was ordering hella food, id get a salad or whatever but fries are just, a god. Anyway
I live a pretty isolated life. I signed up $40/month for a gym with a pool and was swimming last year, but when i only have a one hour window (with the car) to go a day, and the pool schedule being what it was, i stopped going. Excuse? Sure, but i always found it easist to lose weight and exercise when it was baked into my life, and not like, going to the gym, i dont want people to see the fat girl run, even when i was 21 i would run my neighborhood at night so people couldnt see me. But i liked the pool, i just cant get there without a car, which i dont have. My bike is broken, i sont onow how to fix it, and cant afford to, and like i said, you come out my little neighborhood, its immediately highway. I walked with ny son up there one day to try and go somewhere, and someone took a right on red, when we had the crosswalk, and nearly hit us. All you could hear was cars, and smell exhaust- truly aweful pedestrian experience.
Im back on whole foods, but its not really what i eat now, its seditary lifestyle. “So get out there!” One might say, i have highways on two sides of me, and an airport on the other, and a swamp on the otherside. My favorite local grocer is .6 miles from me measured directly through the swamp to the strip mall, you have to take a highway to get there. It’s so frustrating, i would walk. I really would. I struggle to work out on my own, my husband is tall and thin, and hates working out, so im on my own. Thats the hard part. Im keep eating my veggies and whole foods and continue to work on it, since i turned 32 my goal is to get fit again by 40.
My husband got a sword and i was messing around with it, and realized my arms have gotten weak, so just this week i started doing push ups. Or even just trying to hold myself up in that planking position. I work on my binge eating disorder with my therapist because, being alone in the house, with no friends to invite me anywhere, just readig the Internet some mornings, is enough to say, "I don’t care I’m making nachos for breakfast, it doesnt make dishes, i dont feel like cleaning the god damn cutting board and doing dishes. I do em all by hand, and when you cook from scratch, dishes are… plentiful.
Anyway, i know its the best thing. I remember when i could run without getting winded, the energy i had, I refuse elevators and take the stairs at my therapist office, and i get mad im winded when i reach the top. Got tree work to do this week, idk. It’s not that im lazy, my binge really is just fucking nachos, and about six months ago, i decided, even if im binge nachos, i make a portion half what i used to, and double the jalapenos.
Youre preaching to the choir on this.
Bought my wife a home bike so that she could do some cardio while I worked. It’s good for the winter, it gets pretty cold here for her. She’s used to Indonesia and in Belgium it gets to 0 to minus 10 degrees in the winter months.
It’s a good option because you can read something while doing that. Basically you can be on the internet.
When you’re more fit, I’d suggest rope skipping. However it can be hard on the joints. It’s very good cardio though. Boxers do it all the time.
You also can buy some kettlebells. I have one of 16 and 20 kg at home, it takes no space at all. I use them for shoulder raises. They can be used for swings which is great cardio.
You can do bodyweight squats. I do 5 sets of 50 on a Sunday when I’m “too lazy” to fix up the weight for deadlift.
In all these years of working out, I quickly made the investment to have a home gym. Not because it’s cheaper in the long term, but because it’s far easier to actually do the workout.
The most difficult part about working out at a gym is getting to the gym. It feels like a drag. Sure, once at the gym it’s all great, but getting there the next time is once again a drag.
About food I don’t know shit though. I consume a lot of calories. Me working out and stuff like that is what I call damage control. I’m a stereotypical Belgian. I eat a lot of fries with mayo and drink strong beer.
Working out, and likely food, is all about mental stuff. Truly it’s half the battle. Need to figure out how to do a routine and keep to it. Like right now I’m going to do barbell rows because it’s Thursday. I don’t even view it as an option, it’s just what my Thursday looks like.
Good luck, getting back into shape is always difficult. But you know that after 2 months you’ll have a lot of energy. Then the trick is to keep working out just to keep that amount of energy.
I want to add, the fist time i binge ate, i was 8 years old. My guardian had a snack draw, full of all the 90s kid corn syrup you could want. We were to pack two for our lunches each day. My guardian was a severe misogynist, and even at 8, i was angry all the fat boys in media were clowns and funny and liked, and the fat girls were basically conveyed as trolls.
I remember hearing “growing boys need to eat”, and at 8(edit maybe i was 10), i thought, im growing too, why cant i eat? And i ate up that snack draw. It was my first protest to “girls should only eat things they look cute eating”.
I like to think if i had a proper mother maybe that wouldnt have happened. But the mother i had, i saw once a month and didnt eat ant veggies, was thin, but meat and potatoes is all she ever ate, water tasted bad to her and she only drank coffee. She was never a big part of my life. But my misogynist guardian was, and thus began my disorder. “Mayo puts hair on your chest; women are weak and stupid, i dont date fat women” ect I would hear and it would piss me off. I got fat, and i was the “daughter” he didnt rape. It protected me, in a way, but ive a mouth and i wish he would have tried, i could have gotten us kids out sooner.
As a teen hed throw fast food at me and call me names while i was confined to my room, not even allowed out by the end, to use the bathroom.
I have c-ptsd, and now at 37 still fucking stuggle with it. I just wish i could live somewhere walkable, and i miss my 20s when i did live in a place like that.
Shoulda just killed him to be honest, but oh well
Your husband could try and get a job in Europe. Here in flanders there’s quite a lot of walkability. They are creating bike lanes. I’m lucky that I can bike to work 15 km without interacting much with cars.
I could suggest Indonesia, for 100k euros you have a nice apartment with access to a gym and swimming pool. But I don’t know about the needs of your child. They don’t really speak English there either, but Bahasa is pretty easy to learn.
Personally I’d go to Batam, Indonesia. Right under Singapore. Live in the center.
For walkability it’s bad there kinda. And hot. Be careful of things like construction work. Can’t really know if it’s all safe.
The solution is not moving country. God if it were that easy.
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Whew Lad, you must be projecting.
I’m a man, I’m lonely. Why? Because I spent the last 30 years building a career and my social circle is tiny. My personal hobbies and interest took a back seat to building my company, helping my wife through a 2nd and then 3rd Masters Degree, and raising my Son.
Personal Hygiene? Showered at least every day. Dress Well? I’m in collars, slacks, and dress shoes at least 5 days a week. Smell Good? Yeah, got it covered. Smile? Yeah, got it covered. Show Respect? Yeah, got it covered. Practice Good Manners? Pretty rich coming from you.
Go outside and stop blaming women for everything.
You have a child’s understanding of the world around and lack empathy. Go read a book.
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You’re not the person the meme is targeting. Way to ignore the first 3 panels.
You are correct, this wasn’t targeted at me and I didn’t fully absorb the content before replying to it. I’m going through a rough patch and it clouded me for a bit.
Should we also show “empathy” to Klansmen who joined up because they claim to feel disenfranchised by society?
There’s a chasm of difference between empathizing with a Klansman and empathizing with people who followed a normal, and I use that word loosely, cultural track. The two are so distinctly different that comparing them is absurd.
Your idea of empathy is why the Andrew Tates of this world can thrive.
That guy and the way he lives his life are disgusting, do not associate me with them.
Your idea of empathy is why the Andrew Tates of this world can thrive. Worthless sentimentality and obsession with civility rather than seriously challenging toxic ideology. It’s the liberal way.
OK, but you’re not actually offering a materially viable alternative to any of the underlying systemic issues that cause either of those problems.
It is also the liberal way to challenge bad ideas, as ideas only and not actually do anything about the underlying material causes & incentives that produce those ideas.
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Kick the bastard misogynist influencers off social media platforms and educate young men on having healthy relationships with others starting from school age.
Correct.
Systemic issues is a very vague concept. What causes young men to latch onto misogyny. Poverty? Mental health issues? Lack of meaningful employment options? Or do we circle back to blaming it on women and feminism again?
The two fundamental things that drive misogyny among men are the intensity of inequality between men themselves (more specifically, the degree to which men with property can assert themselves over men without property), and the degree to which men can be integrated into some kind of productive social relationship with other men & women.
Very few men actually start with the premise that “Women are Dishwashers.” That’s a political claim that they arrive at after consistently losing out to other more socially, or economically successful men, and subsequently internalizing their position in that dynamic as immutable natural law.
Should we also show “empathy” to Klansmen who joined up because they claim to feel disenfranchised by society?
Well, yes. No qualifiers. Full stop. Ask anybody who’s successfully done it. Arno Michaelis is particularly good at turning white supremacists back to the light because he was one, and knows the mindset.
Changing somebody’s mind and world-view always starts with listening empathetically. What you don’t offer is sympathy for abhorrent beliefs. It’s hard to make the distinction, but that old saw about education granting the ability to hold a notion in one’s mind without accepting it is relevant. I would argue that maturity means learning to offer kindness while maintaining strong personal and moral boundaries. Self-righteous fury might feel good, but it’ll never get through to a Klansman, or an incel.
So, yes, you have to show empathy, but certainly not a pat on the back. Those are two different things. It’s hard to hold the line between them at times, but it’s the only way to effectively reach people with backwards belief systems. Frankly, I feel like a lot of people would rather be self-righteous than effective, because it’s easier and feels good, and that’s what I see in the too-common conflation of understanding with approval.
It’s an incel meme, thus the clown makeup he applies to himself. I think people are reading this as a literal flow chart, instead of a parody
Woah, woah, woah… Easy there Casabonita.
When you say “look after”, like every how many weeks are you suggesting we brush our teeth? i don’t want to spend half my budget on toothpaste. My cryptos aren’t doing great.
But when you say “show respect” I get it but like how much time do I have to wait until i can stare at their cleavage? Or like… idk what’s the code word I have to use so they feel respected and provide me with cleavage staring time? I guess what I’m trying to ask is… regarding this hypothetical “person” I “respect”, what are the exact verbal and nonverbal steps I must follow in order for them to immediately perform my fantasies but me not provide anything that requires any kind of emotional, physical, financial or creative effort at any given point and how do I make them think I am willing or able to conceptualize them as “real people”?
If you could just link me the cheat sheet you use that would actually help a lot. ty
When all your “friends” are alpha bro podcasters trying to get you to buy shit, yeah you’re gonna be lonely.
