- cross-posted to:
- europe@lemmy.dbzer0.com
- cross-posted to:
- europe@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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The criminalisation of the slogan “from the river to the sea” in Germany is absolutely ludicrous and shameful.
I totally can understand why some people see this as a call for the elimination of Israel and the murdering or deportation of all jews that live there. You might disagree, but: Many people view that slogan like this and they have their reasons. And it really is stupid from the protestors to run around during a massive police presence shouting that. It’s totally obvious that nothing will we gained by that. Peace in the middle east will not come because you shouted that slogan in the streets of Berlin. Palestinians and Israelis won’t start a dialogue and become friends.
That’s such an absurd framing. There exist already countless fantastic initiatives for promoting dialogue between Israelis and Palestinians. Dialogue at the civil society level has been going on forever. There is nowhere near a lack of dialogue. The problem is not that Palestinians and Israelis haven’t started a dialogue, the problem is that Israel is occupying, discriminating, colonizing, brutalizing, murdering, stealing land and ethnically cleansing as a matter of state policy.
It is in this backdrop that good dialogue initiatives are being also delegitimized and stigmatized. On the ground in Palestine but also in the West. In Germany things are so absurd that Israeli Jews and non Israeli Jews who speak out against this madness are being stigmatized as …“antisemitic”.
And in this background you have a national liberation slogan of the oppressed side being maliciously misinterpreted in the worst possible bad faith way. Effectively it forces the discussion to be first and foremost about Israeli comfort, and everything else being secondary. It is absolutely a ludicrous and shameful framing of the whole discourse.
I really am surprised at your comment. I do remember how the current war started and that was not by Israel doing anything, but by a massive terror attack that killed over 1000 Israelis. That Hamas attack had the clear goal to kill as many Israelis as possible. They went through whole towns and killed or kidnapped everyone. In that context you can’t use a slogan that is in the Hamas charta, that was used by Hamas in the past and is still used by Hamas and post "oh no, it has nothing to do with those terrorists, it is just a “national liberation slogan of the opressed side”. No, it is a slogan used by fucking terrorists and yes, if you are using it, people will notice it and think that you are promoting the goals of this terror group. If you really want peace, just use different slogans that can’t be misunderstood as trying to murder all jews in Israel and you’re fine. Maybe also try to distance yourself from extremists while advocating for peace, it really is helpful
Do you really think I need a lesson as to what crimes the Hamas fuckheads did on September 7th 2023? Save me the fucking lecture.
But let me check you on something, because I’m really fucking tired with the arbitrary Start of History on September 7th, as if nothing happened before.
The war did not start on September 7th 2023, because there was no peace on September 6th 2023.
There was a ceasefire, that Hamas broke.
There was also a ceasefire was in place between the 19th of January and the 17th of March this year. A ceasfire that was broken by an Israeli surprise attack that killed over 800 Palestinians.
So if we apply YOUR standard to the “start of war”, then THIS war started on March 18th 2025 BY ISRAEL.
You want peace? MUZZLE THE FUCKING ISRAELI FASCISTS.
When we agree that Hamas are fuckheads, then let’s agree that we should not use their slogans to advocate for peace. Use something else that can’t be misunderstood for propagating violence and then let’s stop this totally insane infighting everywhere and try to find a way to a peaceful solution, which gives both Palestinians and Israelis the chance to live in peace and prosperity.
You keep saying it’s Hamas’ slogan. It isn’t. It’s a PLO slogan. Hamas use it, sure, but like other Islamists, they much prefer “min il-ṃayye la-l-ṃayye / Falasṭīn ʿarabiyye” and “min il-ṃayye la-l-ṃayye / Falasṭīn ʾislāmiyy”. Not “free”, but “Arabic” and “Islamic”.
It’s also a rhetorical inversion of a Likud slogan. From their 1977 charter. And Netanyahu has been using it quite recently and his right wing allies have also been using it. Did you hear any pearl clutching when that happened?
So what is going on is that the perpetrators of ethnic cleansing are using it, but you’re getting you knickers in a twist when the victims of ethnic cleansing try to reclaim it.
Is you really want a peaceful solution start seeing the truth, that Israel is an anti-democratic Apartheid regime enforcing a brutal occupation, colonization and ethnic cleansing on the Palestinians, with full immunity and support from Western governments. Without a profound change in Israel, of the type that South Africa underwent, there will be no peace.
Edit: since we’re on Feddit, sorry I should also mention: “with equal rights for all, especially Jews”. Like especially and particularly. All other people, are just in the “for all” category but feddit wants Jews in an especially and particularly category. Not antisemitic that policy at all.
Yeah, it’s really shameful to lament a genocide while advocating for a genocide… but your propaganda-induced brain damage causes impressive cognitive dissonance.
The only way to understand the slogan as a call for genocide is if you have accepted the premise that “a Free Palestine Must Necessarily Mean The Extermination Of Jews”. And that is a profoundly fucked up thing to say.
if you have accepted the premise that “a Free Palestine Must Necessarily Mean The Extermination Of Jews”
Yes, a free Palestine ranging “from the river to the sea” while at the very same time -just like Israel- staunchly rejecting the idea of a two-state solution is exactly that.
Out of the two insane and genocidal sides of that conflict none can claim moral superiority.
(For reference: see §2 of the Hamas charter that clearly defines the borders of their “free Palestine” that covers 100% of Israel, West Bank and Gaza…)
A Free Ireland did not mean a genocide of Protestants. A Free South Africa did not mean a genocide of Afrikaners. A Free Ukraine does not mean a genocide of Russians.
A Free Palestine does not have to mean a genocide of Israelis.
If you have given up on humanity, or if you somehow believe that Arabs are incapable of universalism, that’s nothing but a failure of your own moral ambition.
PS. Palestine is not Hamas. There is an internationally recognized Palestinian Authority that has actually recognized the 2 State Solution, that IS a potential partner for peace for Israel, that DOES do its best to manage extremism in the areas it controls. The same Palestinian Authority is being ratfucked over every step of the way by Israel. Undermined, delegitimized, made to look ineffective, ignored, silenced, provoked. Its lands being colonized, its people brutalized, its economy stifled, its resources stolen, its contiguity fractured, even its olive fucking trees cut. Every step of the way. Israeli settlers bullying, killing, rioting, and the Israeli army protecting them, the Israeli courts rubber stamping their crimes. If you’re looking for a sane party to the conflict, look at the PA. Because this is what Palestine without Hamas looks like.
A Free Ukraine does not mean a genocide of Russians.
Because it’s not a free Ukraine that insists on covering 100% of Russia’s territory.
Palestine is not Hamas. There is an internationally recognized Palestinian Authority that has actually recognized the 2 State Solution.
The last election was held 19 years ago. Hamas clearly won with 76 out of 132 seats. Pretending that the Palestinian Authority is somehow speaking for Palestinians because they say the stuff you want to hear is rediculous wishful thinking.
The same Palestinian Authority is being ratfucked over every step of the way by Israel. Undermined, delegitimized, made to look ineffective, ignored, silenced
You don’t need to delegitimize people on year 19 of a 4 year term where they actually lost…
About 30% of the people in Ukraine have Russian add their native language, that’s what I meant. Putin has used then as an excuse to take territory.
Part of the ratfucking is precisely destroying the capacity of a society to function as a democracy. Create a situation of constant anomaly in which elections cannot meaningfully take place. Them criticize whoever is trying to do anything moderate as illegitimate. All the while you keep using these excuses to push through a radical expansion of settlements. How can you have free elections under apartheid? Saying otherwise is either ignorance or hypocrisy.
What makes you think so?
How do you see that slogan in the context of Israel’s existence, given the (potential) relation mentioned in the article?
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According to the police, one officer was dragged into the crowd, forced to the ground and trampled on. The 36-year-old reportedly suffered severe injuries to his upper body, including a broken arm, and remains in the hospital.
Just your friendly neighbourhood demonstration. Nothing to see here, move along.
Just look for “police violence palestine protests berlin” and you will find countless of videos of cops beating up people for no reason, using excessive force, beating up people already on the ground and in custody, choking people unconcious. There was a small outcry about a year ago when videos emerged of cops randomly shoving a women outside any group of people to the fround and another video of a cop throwing a women around by her neck, a move that could have easily broke her neck and killed her.
Also the police is notorious for lying about attacks on officers, so the claim he would have been “dragged into the crowd” should be taken with a big grain of salt, unless there is video evidence of it. I think it is more probable that he fell over when the police stormed in and his colleagues retreated. And well when you keep punching, kicking, body slamming and choking people, there could come a point when they loose their cool.
For demonstrations in Berlin police has been looking to escalate violence to discredit protests at every possibility over the past years. Human rights and civil rights organizations are criticising increasing repressions against demonstrations especially increasing police violence. Aside from protests for the rights of Palestinians climate protests are particular targets. Berlins police uses violence against women and minors in particular because they know it is a reliable way to escalate violence.
On thursday Berlins police already banned the demonstration from moving at all. Police came with two water throwers and 600 officers to begin with. They were out for blood.
Some scences from thursday and other prtests over the past year and a half. Note that his is not even the tip of the iceberg.
https://youtube.com/shorts/h_gjZdx4MqU
https://youtube.com/shorts/wDFKlXoqeXg
https://youtube.com/watch?v=c6Jlj8shfVM
https://youtube.com/shorts/s0q0zd8t5fo
https://youtube.com/watch?v=exRIsj73QUQTo add to that. This is not a Gaza-Israel problem, but a Berlin police being especially violent against any sort of left leaning protest. They were extremely hard on climate protest before that. Part of that being a lawful conviction for using a pain grip.
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And it doesn’t have to be a protest for Palestinians for police to use excessive force, just look up how they treated stuttgart 21 protesters
Ah, playing the victim role? I know that one from Palestinian protesters already. Show me something new.
You’re losing
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I would have thought that Berlin’s police overreach might have been dealt with sometime since the last world war, but I guess I was just hopeful.
