Just you wait another few more years and I’m gonna vote so hard it’ll make your head spin
You should definitely vote but it shouldn’t be the only thing you do.
No
Yes. Voting is useful for showing solidarity with the movement and demonstrating how the current system doesn’t work. Just because it isn’t capable of causing any meaningful change doesn’t mean it’s useless.
Just because it isn’t capable of causing any meaningful change doesn’t mean it’s useless.
I see a lot of folks on .ml and .hexbear not understand this part. It’s like all change must be meaningful, and if it’s not then it’s not worth our time.
Lenin taught us that we need to build within the system of the masses in order to tip them over, not overturn it outright. There is a specific time and place for when change is the most impactful
Lenin’s position on integrating with the masses meant running working class parties in opposition to establishment parties, ie voting PSL over DNC. The vanguard’s task is to become a party that the working class puts their full support behind, so that when revolution does happen, the vanguard can serve as the spearpoint to direct the masses in one unified direction and crush the capitalist state, replacing it with a socialist one.
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Badjacketing is bad. Don’t do that.
You’re right, I dont know that they are a psyop. I do, however, know that the position of ‘voting is not worthwhile if you are a leftist’ that they are taking above is the same position that many psyops would like to have in the minds of leftists. Put more simply, what might they have said differently if they were a psyop? Nothing, I presume.
It is better to root out psyop talking points that diminish our ability to form a collective voice, than it is to allow foolish notions like ‘dont vote’ to continue in our spaces.
Voting doesn’t do much, though. I support voting for working class orgs like PSL, but not for the DNC or GOP, and I know it’s very unlikley that PSL will win electorally. Leftists understand that the path to change is via organizing, not by supporting orgs that work against our interests, and we know we can’t magically turn a capitalist org into a proletarian one by wishcasting.
If you want to argue against that, then do so, don’t badjacket.
Im literally just telling folks to not engage in the same behavior that the fascists hope we engage in.
Fascists don’t care if we vote, what they care about is if we organize. Now that the spoils of imperialism are drying up, fascism is rising, and the super-exploitation we inflict on the global south is turning more inward. What fascists are scared of is working class organizing and building actual power.
- I don’t care what fascists hope.
- If fascists say the sky is blue, does that make it a “fascist talking point,” and therefore isn’t blue? That’s just not how it works.
I don’t know why you think you own the place when this is their Lemmy instance, while you’re a guest here.
I dont own the place. But neither does anyone in this comment thread, no one here is a mod on memes.ml, not that I should be expto know who owns what on a public forum
bro just one more vote bro, bro I swear just one more vote and it’ll fix democracy bro
Is this not also true for liberals who aren’t white?
yes. i did not create this image
Chile actually voted out their dictator.
then what happened
So did Brazil, and they actually threw theirs in prison.
No, Bolsonaro was not a dictator; if he had been, we wouldn’t have been able to remove him. He had far less power than he thought; that’s why voting worked.
I would argue the same is true of Trump. It certainly was in his first term. This term has all the aesthetics of authoritarianism, but he is failing to consolidate power, which is kind of pathetic considering how much power in the US was ready to surrender on day one.
Same as most Eastern Block countries. Except Romania, they chose other ways.
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The upside-down corpse of Mussolini might disagree with that
Once they win elections, it’s already too late.
Hey what do you think stops them from winning that first election?
🤫
Surely, having the largest military in human history is going to help us, right?
I mean this isn’t a “white lib” thing. Most people don’t want political violence or related.
Congratulations
except for all the white conservatives that stormed the Capitol on Jan 6th, 2021; commit acts of violence against Democrat politicians; make reports and call “wellness checks” on others; commit or support police brutality; defend ICE abductions and trafficking…
There’s over 200,000,000 white citizens. A few hundred doing dumb shit isn’t the entire group. Would you apply this way of thinking to other groups of people?
Nope and I’m not applying it to “white citizens”; just “conservatives”. I’m saying to the "white lib"s and others that the violence is already here.
Well, how about we just try it first instead of resorting to instant armed combat against our own government or a civil war?
Not sure if you have noticed, but your government has already started the armed combat against the people
Yes but my 12 gauge shotgun and my .22 riffle and my .45 handgun seem to be a tad lopsided against their tanks and drones and guided missiles so sorry if I’m not ready to pounce just yet.
Totally valid. You’re right. Under those conditions, voting will definitely work. But only if you shame people on the Internet to vote the correct way.
Poe’s law has got me good this time. Not sure if youre sarcastic or not lol.
Full on sarcastic
Read up on the Viet Cong or Taliban and stop making excuses
Sure thing, would another hundred years suffice or would that still be too early to tell?
Liberals have tried and failed to meaningfully improve their situations via voting for centuries. Without analyzing which class is in control of the state, voting will always be extremely weak.
you’re right. one more election and we fix climate change, ranpant exploitation and discrimination! We just have to vote properly.
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Instant? My guy where do you draw the line?
Because they’re already drawing weapons and we’ve been “trying” so hard we elected him twice. You think this will change? You think the Dems will wave a wand and institute voting reform and healthcare or increase wages or improve the living conditions?
Actually my hope is that when this is over people in the MAGA movement will finally wake up and see how much of their own lives have been destroyed by what this ass clown did to them and we as a country can agree to NEVER allow it to happen again and that we can finally go back to letting the adults govern the country instead of a man who would have been a used car salesman had his daddy not given him everything he has.
after germany lost in ww2 only 300 people stood in front of nuremberg.
every fascist that survived just used their position of power and recognition and continued staying in politics. they didn’t change their minds, only the approach.
fascism wasn’t suddenly eradicated. the generations they put into this world were taught and raised by these fascists in hiding.
MAGA fucks won’t change their minds. They’ll just change the approach.
and honestly: as a non-american it doesn’t matter if trump or a dem are in power. they’ll continue murdering people in their interest.
As an American who’s lived in various countries and can’t stand his home country, I agree with you 100%.
Trump isn’t the problem, he’s a symptom of the problem. The US Empire has never served the working classes, no president has.
(also the ‘clean energy’ he’s talking about is fracking 🥰 )
If we just keep changing the bandages and apply no antibiotics, surely the infection will just give up
when this is over […] we can finally go back
We’ve been trying for a long time? How long should we wait? Do they need to officially declare fascism?
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sorry.
instant
Martin Luther King, Jr. 1963: https://letterfromjail.com/
Is Lemmy just full of hateful ass people or something? In what world does saying we shouldn’t start an armed rebellion worthy of all the downvotes? Y’all are fucking wild.
your commitment to the bit is truly laudable 🤣
how about we just try it first
😭
Lemmy is full of leftists, the vast majority of which understand that electoralism and reformism are losing strategies and that revolution is generally necessary.
Some of the dumber white libs I’ve talked to honestly believe 51% of American voters voted for Trump 🤣
They don’t know what voting does or how it works but they’re sure it’s the only reasonable solution!
Race baiting to distract from the class war?
Moron
what about classbaiting?
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What’s idiotic about Marxism?
The implementation
What fools
Correlation isn’t causation
Yeah man i guess they just suddenly found the fountain of youth. Nothing is causation actually, cause and effect is a myth sold to us by Big Causality so we buy more notebooks
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Snide vagueposting to cover for having been schooled with data. Sad!
But when people die under communism beaucouse there was a world war and the land was totally destroyed, it’s certainly that ugly communism in it?
Yes, the causation was the dramatic expansion of safety nets, improved agriculture, land reform, poverty reduction, and more. The proof of effectiveness is in the graph.
It has to be when it’s supporting my argument! Let’s disregard all the years of war, it must be the Marxism!
?
Hi again, what did they say? Some lib bs?
as always :3
Classic
:3
You’re on .ml, dipshit
Revolutions stand or fall with public support. Voting is the most visible way to establish public sentiment. People like to quote that only a third of the US actually elected Trump, but do we have a clear idea of just how many oppose him, if so many voters apparently never expressed their opinion in any measurable way?
Doing nothing and complaining on the internet is useless. Doing something is scary. If you knew you had your community at your back, wouldn’t you feel more confident to step up?
You’re right that people need to know that voting won’t be enough, but it’s still important in order to communicate the public opinion that separates a revolution from a coup.
That is indeed a good argument for voting, but voting third party
Depending on the stakes, yes. It is categorically better than not voting at all.
There is still the spoiler effect to consider, which may make voting third party a worse strategy in the complex, blind game that elections are. In elections where that isn’t as big of a risk, it’s a good way to indicate dissatisfaction with the status quo and the parties on offer. If there is a particularly convincing third party that many agree on, it also communicates what people do want.
In presidential elections, in a country where the president already had so much power even before this whole shitshow, when one candidate is a much greater threat to the basic feasability of resistance, it’s a dangerous gamble, risking much for a fairly slim chance at an all-or-nothing victory.
FPTP is one of the many things that are fucked up, but not every election has that kind of impact, and particularly if you’re in states where one party is so dominant that the spoiler effect is negligible anyways, it may be the more valuable choice.
so voting AND revolution are both good
The success of diplomacy and peaceful protest hinges on the existence of a credible threat that the alternative (war and riots, respectively) will be worse. Even if a (mostly) peaceful solution should be found, I suspect there will have to be some measure of violence to get that point across.
As others point out, the elites won’t go down quietly, and as long as there are bootlicks willing to fight on their behalf, they’ll rather let their bootlicks die than make concessions.
So while I don’t think violent revolutions are good for their own sake, they may be a necessary evil for good ends.
what about peaceful revolutions (as long as they DON’T even escalate)?
If, for whatever reason, the police collectively decides to no longer enforce the commands of those in power and no other group steps up to violently defend the status quo, a peaceful revolution in the form of civil disobedience would be conceivable.
Getting to that point without some measure of violence is what I believe to be unlikely – not impossible, mind you, and I very much hope for it, but it’s quite likely that an attempt to create such a consensus would (at least initially) be violently suppressed just as violent resistance would.
Even if it is achieved, the new society will need to guard itself against opportunistic egoists seeking to exploit the new power vacuum. Here too there may be at least an initial period of violence until that new dynamic is clear.
As long as there are people willing to hurt others for their own benefit, they will have to be fought.
But we should try to fight as little as possible.
I know of no revolutions that didnt use force or the credible threat of force, because the ruling class would always rather escalate than voluntarily give up their power.
thejre’s the people power revolution in the phillippines back in 1986
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Democracy is when your corporate lords graciously allow you to choose between genocide and genocide
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You’re on .ml, you absolute loser
Hey sorry, what did they say?
Usual substanceless “heh, you are from this instance, need i say more?”
Ah
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So block .ml and stop whining already.
voting is actually the way to go, and would probably help get fascism out of the government. vote or don’t.
Fascism litteraly wins through democracy so…well we can stop it prematurely, but once it’s In power it won’t let itself to be voted out
maybe a revolution can work if NOT voting
