Traditional initiation is a rite of passage into manhood for young males that is practiced by various ethnic groups in Africa, including parts of South Africa. Among them are the Xhosa, Ndebele, Sotho and Venda communities.
You should really try reading your own article. These boys died from negligence and unsafe conditions…all of which are avoidable. Keep your bigotry out of it.
I get that it’s hard for you to accept other people’s cultural identities, but that’s no excuse to call it child abuse. The issue here is performing a rather simple procedure without proper training or adherence to basic safety standards.
You see? You don’t even know what the procedure is for, and yet you claim some kind of altruism when advocating against it. You have been misled by right-wing propaganda, meant to discriminate against immigrants. Or, you’re just racist and think those people are barbarians for looking out for their children’s well-being in a way you don’t agree with.
Either way, you calling it “child abuse”, doesn’t mean it is.
It always amazes me how ignorant western men are about this subject. No wonder you view men that practice it as if they are barbaric or “lesser-than”. That’s how most bigotry works though…through ignorance.
The foreskin is highly susceptible to infection during early childhood. Especially in regions where cleaning the foreskin is not as easy. It’s a perfect example of how a common sense health measure becomes a cultural tradition.
I think it’s far more lazy to simply write it off as some kind of barbaric practice, instead of utilizing some critical thinking about why it’s so common.
Lol “western men.” Okay. You couldn’t sound more like an American man right now defending child genital mutilation. In any event, rambling incoherently about how evil western men are to defend child genital mutilation isn’t convincing anybody that your position has any merit, and most people in the developing world would find it weird.
They can even, if they’re very very creative/completionist or maybe in a different climate, abuse them in a way the culture I’m from didn’t. Reactionary fetishization of indigeneity is only very slightly better than instinctive condemnation of a thing because it’s unlike you.
Only you’re blowing it out of proportion to support the bullshit cultural agenda you started this stupid debate with. Now you’re switching tracks to make it about health and wellness?
That seems like it falls into the same category as ‘protecting your children from all the scary shit on the internet’.
Like, sure, but your action seems awfully severe and like it wouldn’t do that. Like the action and proclaimed goal have never been in the same room.
Plus modern western conceptions of pain are bullshit and I kind of think it exists purely as an excuse to abusive authority that can only be justified by the fact pain-fear is the dumbest easiest and therefore most-popular-among-authorities method of control, so physical cowardice has become a kind of synonym for loyalty/virtue. But that’s besides the point, I’m sure these infections you’re talking about are real and dangerous and not mostly made up hyperbolizing.
If this were about “looking out for their children’s well-being,” then wouldn’t they follow the suggestions of doctors and specialists in the field of pediatrics?
They do. The push to have circumcision banned in many EU countries is the result of a concerted effort by anti-immigrant groups, hoping to deter Muslims from settling in their countries. A lot of money is being invested in the effort, and the propaganda is thick with misinformation about the benefits and risks.
The cultural institution of pederasty practiced by the noble terf islander civilizations serves to impart a certain stoicism and strength of character to their future leaders. Its a valid cultural practice, and just because you don’t agree with it doesn’t mean it’s wrong.
The “procedure” you’re referring to is, by definition, genital mutilation. Which is intentionally inflicting trauma on a child. That is child abuse.
If they were truly able to consent (which is not possible due to power imbalance), then maybe you’d have an argument. Maybe. But the truth is this “procedure” is for the express purpose of forcing puritanical beliefs and lifestyle into another. So, again, its literally child abuse.
Believing that your religious views override any of this? That’s bigotry.
Your “cultural practices” ends when it harms another sentient being. Funny how you also want to harm the animals for selfish reasons by pushing misinformation on the plant-based diet to make excuses to eat the flesh and secretions of others.
The main purpose of male circumcision is to prevent harm. Funny how you are so passionate about a subject you don’t even understand. You have the whole idea backwards.
The motive might be to prevent harm, but motive does not justify actions. Parents literally used to beat children, to make them more obedient and thereby “protecting” them. Some parents today will prevent their child being vaccinated from life threatening diseases, because in their culture vaccines are seen as bad, and their warped view of medicine makes them think they are protecting their children.
It seems you’re very uneducated. Genital mutilation is performed in order to mark the child as a member of an insane cult, and hinder masturbation. This is very well documented by cult “scholars”. The “reduce infection” thing is a new excuse made up to fool normal people into tolerating insane child abusing cultists.
Oh. Are you saying that 2 year olds in your culture are capable of maintaining “modern hygiene standards”? Is that a measure of how advanced your culture is?
Just because it’s traditional does not mean it isn’t fucked up shit. Could I be wrong because I don’t know the context? Totally! But melanin is just color, not inherent fucking virtue. Don’t fetishize other cultures. They could suck as much as yours.
Many cultural traditions have practical origins. In climates where water is scarce, cleaning is often more difficult. And given the high likelihood of early childhood infections relating to the foreskin, in many of those cultures you apparently look down on, it is considered common sense to remove it before it becomes a problem.
Yeah. I remember some of the ones practiced on me.
The practical origins were things like control, degradation, fear. Practical purposes are not always valid or good. Some cultures are fucked up and if everything about them burned it would be an acceptable sacrifice for the amount of bullshit we’re getting rid of.
early childhood infections
Okay. But Europe and Asia don’t do this, don’t have a long tradition of this. Do surrounding cultural groups?
What infections? Infections are well within the realm of academia, we study the shit out of infections, and with cis dudes doing most of the science finding, I think dick infections their causes and their remedies is something I would expect a flood of academic material on.
look down on
I don’t assume they’re less than half as depraved tyrannical and shitty as the dumpster fire I fell out of. Sometimes I’m surprised, sometimes I’m not.
common sense
Okay but is it? A few of the women in my family, extremely high genetic cancer risk, removed a breast at the drop of a hat, like first hint radical mastectomy being planned instead of any tests, no attempt to save anything. I, not being an insane reactionary defined by a childish trauma response and kind of liking my breasts¹ might take a more measured approach. I can’t help but think these kids, these literal children, are not sufficiently informed for these decisions to be made with the amount of cultural inertia behind them.
If you define your cultural identity by the need to unnecessarily mutilate the genitals of children, then your culture is shit and does not deserve respect or acceptance.
Take a step back and consider what it is you’re defending here.
No. The bigotry would be not applying that logic across the board; doing it ICC style.
You are engaging in a brand of ‘bebevolent’ fetishization of ‘barbaric’ peoples and othering them, applying different values to them than to yourself. This is bigotry, even if it’s not hateful. Its genuinely disgusting.
I can imagine someone like you defending some of the things that my culture of origin did to me as a child this same way, and I’m white, so you wouldn’t; you’d apply values to me like I’m an actual person, but imagining someone who did? I’d fucking kill them
Its a cultural institution to rape children in TERF islander private schools.
Tell me why this is different, admit you’re a disingenuous lying fuck defending sick shit for made up dogmatic reasons you have no understanding of, or admit you’re a pedophile.
Is not doing things to children’s (or anyone’s) bodies without their consent (which they may not be capable of, depending on what for) is a cost? Like, if you were designing a society, would the ‘stuff done to the bodies of children (or fucking anyone) without their consent’ number be one you’re proud of making smaller?
Talk about “intentional misunderstanding”, when you’re the one repeating white nationalist talking points used to promote anti-immigration policies in the EU.
Are you even aware of how common foreskin infections are among young boys? What you call an “unnecessary procedure” is considered a preventative measure for millions of fathers around the world. Why would you choose to risk your son’s health and well-being, when a simple procedure at birth can effectively remove that risk entirely?
Archangel1313… are you okay? Is everything good? I don’t see how not wanting people to mutilate other people’s genitals is bigotry. Or is this a disingenuous “parents’ rights” argument?
Imagine taking a pro-circumcision stance in the comments of an article where 41 boys died as a result of the procedure- all while fully KNOWING that in this day and age, it is a brutal and absolutely unnecessary thing to do begin with.
Those boys would still be alive if assholes stoped butchering children’s genitalia.
They died because the procedure was performed far too late in life, by people who were not trained medical professionals, in unsafe conditions.
Using this as an example of why circumcision is “bad”, is a perfect example of how western white nationalists weaponize tragedy to push their narratives into the mainstream. Don’t be so naive.
There are valid reasons for parents to choose circumcision. I’m not sure religion is a part of that, and I’m not sure that it isn’t. For example, if this were female circumcision based strictly on religion or culture, I’d feel very strongly against it, since it’s to curb pleasure and often leads to infection, from bodily fluids not being able to exit. However, malformed genetalia can also cause complications.
I’m glad I never had to choose gender assignment or not because children in middle school can be cruel, so can misassignment, and as we see, adults can be cruel too.
I posit perhaps such complicated decisions not be based entirely on religion or cultural identity of the parents alone, since what the child chooses as an adult may be very different than what the parent prefers.
Cut off a body part because sometimes it’s a problem later which usually can be treated in a less-destructive manner? No, that’s not a rational response.
Dear World: Stop mutilating children’s genitals.
You should really try reading your own article. These boys died from negligence and unsafe conditions…all of which are avoidable. Keep your bigotry out of it.
These boys died from an unnecessary procedure that should never have been performed on a child who cannot consent. Keep your child abuse out of it.
I get that it’s hard for you to accept other people’s cultural identities, but that’s no excuse to call it child abuse. The issue here is performing a rather simple procedure without proper training or adherence to basic safety standards.
Culture does not excuse child abuse. If they truly want to go through with this, let them do so as adults with minds that are fully developed.
You see? You don’t even know what the procedure is for, and yet you claim some kind of altruism when advocating against it. You have been misled by right-wing propaganda, meant to discriminate against immigrants. Or, you’re just racist and think those people are barbarians for looking out for their children’s well-being in a way you don’t agree with.
Either way, you calling it “child abuse”, doesn’t mean it is.
And you lazily hiding behind pure cultural relativism with absolutely no other explanation doesn’t make it not child abuse.
It always amazes me how ignorant western men are about this subject. No wonder you view men that practice it as if they are barbaric or “lesser-than”. That’s how most bigotry works though…through ignorance.
The foreskin is highly susceptible to infection during early childhood. Especially in regions where cleaning the foreskin is not as easy. It’s a perfect example of how a common sense health measure becomes a cultural tradition.
I think it’s far more lazy to simply write it off as some kind of barbaric practice, instead of utilizing some critical thinking about why it’s so common.
Lol “western men.” Okay. You couldn’t sound more like an American man right now defending child genital mutilation. In any event, rambling incoherently about how evil western men are to defend child genital mutilation isn’t convincing anybody that your position has any merit, and most people in the developing world would find it weird.
Yeah. I know in the southern hemisphere brushing your teeth can get really difficult too.
Fucking exoticizing fetishizing bullshit.
People not from my culture can abuse children.
They can even, if they’re very very creative/completionist or maybe in a different climate, abuse them in a way the culture I’m from didn’t. Reactionary fetishization of indigeneity is only very slightly better than instinctive condemnation of a thing because it’s unlike you.
Protecting your child from potentially painful infections during their early childhood, is not child abuse.
Only you’re blowing it out of proportion to support the bullshit cultural agenda you started this stupid debate with. Now you’re switching tracks to make it about health and wellness?
That seems like it falls into the same category as ‘protecting your children from all the scary shit on the internet’.
Like, sure, but your action seems awfully severe and like it wouldn’t do that. Like the action and proclaimed goal have never been in the same room.
Plus modern western conceptions of pain are bullshit and I kind of think it exists purely as an excuse to abusive authority that can only be justified by the fact pain-fear is the dumbest easiest and therefore most-popular-among-authorities method of control, so physical cowardice has become a kind of synonym for loyalty/virtue. But that’s besides the point, I’m sure these infections you’re talking about are real and dangerous and not mostly made up hyperbolizing.
If this were about “looking out for their children’s well-being,” then wouldn’t they follow the suggestions of doctors and specialists in the field of pediatrics?
They do. The push to have circumcision banned in many EU countries is the result of a concerted effort by anti-immigrant groups, hoping to deter Muslims from settling in their countries. A lot of money is being invested in the effort, and the propaganda is thick with misinformation about the benefits and risks.
Everything I don’t like is racism.
You though, you’re totally clear and unpropagandized
No, no, because you see doctors are secretly lizard people.
What’s your take on catholic priests abusing children?
That’s what you sound like.
The “procedure” you’re referring to is, by definition, genital mutilation. Which is intentionally inflicting trauma on a child. That is child abuse.
If they were truly able to consent (which is not possible due to power imbalance), then maybe you’d have an argument. Maybe. But the truth is this “procedure” is for the express purpose of forcing puritanical beliefs and lifestyle into another. So, again, its literally child abuse.
Believing that your religious views override any of this? That’s bigotry.
No, buddy…bigotry is applying the most derogatory terms you can think of, to denigrate other people’s cultural practices.
Your “cultural practices” ends when it harms another sentient being. Funny how you also want to harm the animals for selfish reasons by pushing misinformation on the plant-based diet to make excuses to eat the flesh and secretions of others.
The main purpose of male circumcision is to prevent harm. Funny how you are so passionate about a subject you don’t even understand. You have the whole idea backwards.
The motive might be to prevent harm, but motive does not justify actions. Parents literally used to beat children, to make them more obedient and thereby “protecting” them. Some parents today will prevent their child being vaccinated from life threatening diseases, because in their culture vaccines are seen as bad, and their warped view of medicine makes them think they are protecting their children.
Motive is not justification.
It seems you’re very uneducated. Genital mutilation is performed in order to mark the child as a member of an insane cult, and hinder masturbation. This is very well documented by cult “scholars”. The “reduce infection” thing is a new excuse made up to fool normal people into tolerating insane child abusing cultists.
Shoooosh!
Is that why King David ordered all of those foreskins? He was looking out for their genital hygiene?
Lol ok bud.
I think fetishizing and othering foreign cultures, suggesting they’re incapable of modern hygeine standards, etc,is also pretty fucking bigoted.
Oh. Are you saying that 2 year olds in your culture are capable of maintaining “modern hygiene standards”? Is that a measure of how advanced your culture is?
Do you think the African two year old bathes themselves? The depths of racism on you. Holy shit.
The culture I’m from is mostly fucked up shit.
Just because it’s traditional does not mean it isn’t fucked up shit. Could I be wrong because I don’t know the context? Totally! But melanin is just color, not inherent fucking virtue. Don’t fetishize other cultures. They could suck as much as yours.
Many cultural traditions have practical origins. In climates where water is scarce, cleaning is often more difficult. And given the high likelihood of early childhood infections relating to the foreskin, in many of those cultures you apparently look down on, it is considered common sense to remove it before it becomes a problem.
Yeah. I remember some of the ones practiced on me.
The practical origins were things like control, degradation, fear. Practical purposes are not always valid or good. Some cultures are fucked up and if everything about them burned it would be an acceptable sacrifice for the amount of bullshit we’re getting rid of.
Okay. But Europe and Asia don’t do this, don’t have a long tradition of this. Do surrounding cultural groups?
What infections? Infections are well within the realm of academia, we study the shit out of infections, and with cis dudes doing most of the science finding, I think dick infections their causes and their remedies is something I would expect a flood of academic material on.
I don’t assume they’re less than half as depraved tyrannical and shitty as the dumpster fire I fell out of. Sometimes I’m surprised, sometimes I’m not.
Okay but is it? A few of the women in my family, extremely high genetic cancer risk, removed a breast at the drop of a hat, like first hint radical mastectomy being planned instead of any tests, no attempt to save anything. I, not being an insane reactionary defined by a childish trauma response and kind of liking my breasts¹ might take a more measured approach. I can’t help but think these kids, these literal children, are not sufficiently informed for these decisions to be made with the amount of cultural inertia behind them.
¹and having anything to lose
If your cultural identity is child abuse, go fuck yourself.
I get that it’s hard for you to call if for what it is, but it is genital mutilation. There’s zero need for it. They can’t consent to it.
deleted by creator
This guy HAS to be a troll.
If you define your cultural identity by the need to unnecessarily mutilate the genitals of children, then your culture is shit and does not deserve respect or acceptance.
Take a step back and consider what it is you’re defending here.
And there’s that bigotry I mentioned.
No. The bigotry would be not applying that logic across the board; doing it ICC style.
You are engaging in a brand of ‘bebevolent’ fetishization of ‘barbaric’ peoples and othering them, applying different values to them than to yourself. This is bigotry, even if it’s not hateful. Its genuinely disgusting.
I can imagine someone like you defending some of the things that my culture of origin did to me as a child this same way, and I’m white, so you wouldn’t; you’d apply values to me like I’m an actual person, but imagining someone who did? I’d fucking kill them
Its a cultural institution to rape children in TERF islander private schools.
Tell me why this is different, admit you’re a disingenuous lying fuck defending sick shit for made up dogmatic reasons you have no understanding of, or admit you’re a pedophile.
“Stop cutting off the foreskin of literal children and barely-not-children.”
“BIGOT!”
-some idiot
So, not mutilating kids’ genitals is…bigotry???
Fuck no. Like, seriously, your position is factually incorrect. And, frankly, the tone of superiority makes you sound, well, like a fucking bigot.
Using the term “mutilation” to describe a minor surgical procedure, due to your own cultural biases, is what makes it bigotry.
Is not doing things to children’s (or anyone’s) bodies without their consent (which they may not be capable of, depending on what for) is a cost? Like, if you were designing a society, would the ‘stuff done to the bodies of children (or fucking anyone) without their consent’ number be one you’re proud of making smaller?
What does the term “mutilation” actually mean in your mind?
Intersex infants having surgeries forced upon them is morally wrong.
I guess you also disagree with doing any surgery on infants, for the same reason?
Here we go with the intentional misunderstanding. Stop mutilating the private parts of infants.
Talk about “intentional misunderstanding”, when you’re the one repeating white nationalist talking points used to promote anti-immigration policies in the EU.
Let me guess if someone critiques states persecuting women for having lifesaving abortions “that’s bigotry too”
Those are some mighty self-righteous words for somebody who advocates chopping off clitorises.
Nice false equivalence. I’m not talking about female circumcision.
You may not want to, but you are.
Unnecessary procedures to mutilate the body are morally and ethically wrong regardless of the age of the patient.
For fucks sake. How on earth can you be in defense of this abuse? Please, explain why you support this.
Are you even aware of how common foreskin infections are among young boys? What you call an “unnecessary procedure” is considered a preventative measure for millions of fathers around the world. Why would you choose to risk your son’s health and well-being, when a simple procedure at birth can effectively remove that risk entirely?
Read up
I am curious now, what is usually done in this case?
The doctor forces down vuvloplasty and calls the baby a girl because people are afraid of unique plumbing.
Archangel1313… are you okay? Is everything good? I don’t see how not wanting people to mutilate other people’s genitals is bigotry. Or is this a disingenuous “parents’ rights” argument?
So now imagine if that “ritual” never took place-
if in said imagination, you can see that those boys would still be alive, then I’d say you’re half way there.
You’ll be all the way there when you are able to come to this conclusion all on your own.
These boys would still be alive if they had had the procedure done by an actual medical professional, in an actual medical clinic.
Imagine taking a pro-circumcision stance in the comments of an article where 41 boys died as a result of the procedure- all while fully KNOWING that in this day and age, it is a brutal and absolutely unnecessary thing to do begin with.
Those boys would still be alive if assholes stoped butchering children’s genitalia.
END OF DEBATE.
They died because the procedure was performed far too late in life, by people who were not trained medical professionals, in unsafe conditions.
Using this as an example of why circumcision is “bad”, is a perfect example of how western white nationalists weaponize tragedy to push their narratives into the mainstream. Don’t be so naive.
Now imagine if those procedures were outlawed for being barbaric and unnecessary.
True, they should have just had a rabbi use their mouth to do it while they were still an infant. Good point.
There are valid reasons for parents to choose circumcision. I’m not sure religion is a part of that, and I’m not sure that it isn’t. For example, if this were female circumcision based strictly on religion or culture, I’d feel very strongly against it, since it’s to curb pleasure and often leads to infection, from bodily fluids not being able to exit. However, malformed genetalia can also cause complications.
I’m glad I never had to choose gender assignment or not because children in middle school can be cruel, so can misassignment, and as we see, adults can be cruel too.
I posit perhaps such complicated decisions not be based entirely on religion or cultural identity of the parents alone, since what the child chooses as an adult may be very different than what the parent prefers.
I don’t believe this is true.
Kidney issues, prone to UTI, etc.
Got data to back that up? Like, actual empirical data.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phimosis
Cut off a body part because sometimes it’s a problem later which usually can be treated in a less-destructive manner? No, that’s not a rational response.
A rare, treatable condition? Yeah, I don’t think so.