I distro hopped for a bit before finally settling in Debian (because Debian was always mentioned as a distro good for servers, or stable machines that are ok with outdated software)
And while I get that Debian does have software that isn’t as up to date, I’ve never felt that the software was that outdated. Before landing on Debian, I always ran into small hiccups that caused me issues as a new Linux user - but when I finally switched over to Debian, everything just worked! Especially now with Debian 13.
So my question is: why does Debian always get dismissed as inferior for everyday drivers, and instead mint, Ubuntu, or even Zorin get recommended? Is there something I am missing, or does it really just come down to people not wanting software that isn’t “cutting edge” release?
For reasons similar to why plain bread doesn’t show up in sandwich recommendations.
Plain bread is not a fair comparison, Debian is like an old familiar sandwich you keep going back to because it’s not fancy, it doesn’t use over the top ingredients so it digests very well.
People asking for distro recommendations usually ask for their desktop.
Debian is great, but it’s hardly ever the best choice for a desktop, at least not for the kind of people who ask for distro recommendations.
I’ve used it for a few years. What issue does it have for a desktop? I’ve had everything “just work”.
There is absolutely no issue with it.
But there are lots of other distros that add things to it which are great for desktop.
GUI tools for driver installation and kernel switching, snapshots, preinstalled Steam+Wine+Codecs+Flatpak, newer and more software, atomic updates, a faster package manager, more third party support, etc.Debian is better than it ever was, but so are lots of other distros, especially the ones that build on it.
Nowadays you really have the choice between “good” and “better”.My parents for example do not care about tools for drivers installation (everything works just fine already), they don’t know what a kernel is (so there’s no need to switch), snapshots/Flatpak/Steam/Wine/faster package manager are not important (they don’t know what any of that is).
They use a browser and occasionally a text editor, that’s it. Debian + GNOME works really well for them.
Often something simple is just right.
Debian might work but it will always be behind and if any performance upgrades are done at a kernel level or a DE then you won’t get them until those fixes are potentially already obsolete.
then why do people suggest Mint so often? especially to gamers who often have new hardware
Mint is Debian based but isn’t Debian.
Same with Ubuntu.
The reason people recommend mint is it’s easy to install and has a familiar DE.
I was talking about the update timing, Mint isn’t very up to date which can have downsides
Debian is not behind. Changed enter the repos pretty quickly and every 25 months you get a release. Which is perfect, as it means I don’t have to maintenance for my mother that often.
Still there are security patches.
If you want the newest shiny stuff, use Testing or Unstable. I’ve done that for years, for that is not the right choice for everyone, as things change on the time. And I don’t get paid for the tech support I do for my family, so I’d rather see them have larger changes less often. Family would agree, as they find it difficult to learn how to deal with the changes.
GPU drivers and DEs lagging behind, mostly.
Something like Fedora which releases newer code quicker will provide a better desktop/laptop experience. It’s the same reason other stable distros, like the EL distros, aren’t the best for desktops/laptops.
Historically, desktop applications would also be versions behind, but Flatpak really helps with this.
At this point, Debian is probably fine as a distro for a few year old computer that won’t be helped by fractional scaling. Pick a DE and install applications from Flathub.
Old packages in repos. I tried some stuff on LLM and VR and ubuntu had package more updated than Debian. That sad you have to reinstall Ubuntu each time you have to do a security update…
One of the main historical reasons was the Debian project’s puritan approach to open source, meaning the distro was very picky about what it could easily run on. As an example, most network drivers for Realtek nics weren’t included out of the box as they contained non-free code, there was no direct way to install Nvidia drivers instead of nouveau, a lot of the hardware didn’t work in the installer unless you sideloaded the drivers from a usb stick and so on.
There was a non-free ISO version to get around this, but you needed to know of it to use it, and it wasn’t provided anywhere by default. The download page for it was just a barebone directory listing within the mirror. No link or information was provided for it on the main project page.
Starting from version 12 or 13 (don’t remember exactly) proprietary drivers have been included in the installation images, which removed the biggest pain point (IMO) for novice users. Apart from that Debian has been one of the easier distros to install, and has things like a considerably better experience when updating to the next major release. It’s not really slower to update packages than Ubuntu, as I’d be wary of recommending the non-LTS versions to novice users. They tend to be quite unstable compared to LTS.
Personally I’ve daily driven Debian for close to five years, on all my devices except the work laptop. That one is running Ubuntu 24.04 as the employer requires either that or Fedora for Linux users.
Thanks for the info, I was not entirely aware about the fact that they recently changes their proprietary software approach.
it is from debian 12 onwards that installer includes non free firmware, and also has a easy opt in for non free firmware repo enabling
Starting from version 12 or 13 (don’t remember exactly) proprietary drivers have been included in the installation images, which removed the biggest pain point (IMO) for novice users.
Yes, from version 12. I have some kind of relationship with Debian (I like the philosophy behind it) so I have always wanted to use that when I was going to switch to Linux. Version 12 was what did it for me - removed the installation pain points, as you said. I would use it on any set-and-forget computers (like parents mail-and-web computer) if I get the chance.
I’ll be honest : because people is ignorant.
They tried Debian once few years ago, it didn’t have the exact driver they wanted out of the box, they gave up. They think that’s the normal and current experience.
Reality is I use Debian every day on my servers, SBCs, laptop but also my desktop. I’ve been gaming on it since the first day of the installation and it just worked. Sure I had to follow https://wiki.debian.org/NvidiaGraphicsDrivers and basically follow those steps. It took me maybe 15min and 1 reboot but since then NO tinkering, 0, and I’m gaming nearly daily from indie to AAA, from 2D to 3D to VR. As I mentioned in another reply sure I might not have perfectly optimized all my performance but I don’t give a shit, I’m just gaming!
Also as I mentioned elsewhere the “cutting edge” is bullshit. You can have a Debian installation, stable, and cherry pick the packages you want. Heck you can even pull from a forge the software you want, built it, run it. That’s how “bleeding edge” it can be. Of course you can use VM (with GPU passthrough), distrobox, AppImage, Nix (different from NixOS), etc so they are many many ways to make sure you use the absolute latest without breaking your system.
TL;DR: Debian does not position itself as a gaming distribution. A lot of gamers want to optimize everything for gaming and consequently assume a specialized distribution will do better. Meanwhile people who JUST want to play can definitely do so on Debian.
Hot take but totally agreed
I do debian on my servers (barring specific uses), arch on my desktop.
Debian is more like AOSP. It’s a starting point. Super bare. More commonly used in servers and such.
Also things tend to be older on Debian which isn’t the fit for more gaming oriented systems. Due to optimization not being yet available and drivers for the latest hardware
Ah, ok - yeah I can definitely see how for gaming it might not be ideal. I’ve never thought Linux was all that smooth of a transition for gamers though, no matter what OS you’re using - but I guess that heavily depends on the games you’re playing.
Gaming on Linux has been really good for the last several years. The main issue is certain multiplayer games that intentionally block Linux users.
These days, you can install any of the gaming focused distros (Bazzite, CachyOS, Nobara, …). And you didn’t have to do anything. It just works, and works well. Steam is either installed or suggested initially. Really trivial.
What would be considered “bare” about it? Granted, I’m not gaming on it or anything, but I’ve found it to work pretty well out of the box, just downloading software as I need - but nothing that has caused any sort of headache due to missing drivers or anything like that.
To me it seems like it would be pretty simple for most people to switch over from windows - albiet maybe not for the super beginners that have never seen a command line - but for most semi-tech literate, I would think it would be a decent entry into Linux.
Genuinely curious what is actually stripped down or missing, because maybe it’s just something that I’m not even aware that I’m missing out on, lol
Older drivers won’t support newer hardware. Only includes default apps from gnome and KDE. No DE tweaks to speak of. No performance optimizations. No Gear Lever. No fractional scaling implemented, etc. etc.
I guess it makes sense that I’m comfortable with using Debian then, lol, because I don’t know what most of those things you mentioned are - haha.
Thanks for the explanation though :)
no fractional scaling? thats a DE/WM feature not distro related
old drivers? so is every stable point release distro unless you go out of your way to get an to date kernel,
only includes default apps? you mean following the DE’s developer’s vision? (sure for gnome it is a downside for most, tweaks should 100% be included on all gnome installs)
no fractional scaling? thats a DE/WM feature not distro related
Lots of distros these days come out of the box with that pre-configured, so no, it’s not.
only includes default apps? you mean following the DE’s developer’s vision?
Yes.
debian is meant to be stable and ancient, it’s for servers
It works a treat on old laptops. I daily drive it on an old Latitude and it’s awesome
Debian takes work, especially if you have tricky, proprietary hardware that requires firmware support. It comes with that magical “free software only” mentality that makes it harder to adopt and hence why Ubuntu and Mint exist. It’s a great minimalist distro
It comes with that magical “free software only” mentality
Less free than it used to be. Now you get closed source firmware by default, making the initial setup much better than it used to be.
Fedora har the same free software ethos. You can enable varies various not free repos, just like in debian. I doubt it’s a real problem? Might just have been lucky.
Fedora was the first to get my NVidia Card and proprietary wifi card working out of the box without intervening. It also updates my Dell firmware out of the box. Debian, last time I checked, does not. I haven’t tried since before Bullseye.
Similar to Debian but tangentally, I run Guix which falls under the same GNU umbrella of what “free software” is and I have to break that with non-free channels to get the same laptop running.
I’m running Debian 12 (Bookworm) on a Dell laptop and it updates my firmware out of the box as well. I’m not running any NVidia though, so I can’t comment on whether that’d work or not.
My 2¢:
I think it’s gamer discourse bleeding out into other fields. Gamers need the newest libraries and the newest drivers or their stuff might not run as well as it possibly could, because gaming is a relatively young but aggressively growing field with the Linux ecosystem in general. Sure games have always been around, but it’s never been the focus.
Now that gamers are switching more frequently, and that the average user is likely to play a game occasionally, it’s becoming relatively important that packages be up to date for desktop workloads.
Gamers need the newest libraries and the newest drivers or their stuff might not run as well as it possibly could
No they don’t. They think they do because they believe they run their precious expensive hardware only at 99% whereas they imagine, I bet due to trying to compete with each others on benchmarks, that with the absolute latest driver they can actually push their GPU at 99.99% and gain .1FPS in the most popular game they might not even like and 2 points in the trendy benchmark.
Source : I’m a gamer playing on Debian, from indie to AAA, from 2D to 3D to VR, and it just works. Sure I’m not at 99% perf on my hardware, I might even be at 80% but I’m definitely spending 0% time tinkering and 100% having fun.
you’re probably right as to why.
I’ll note that on my gaming desktop I decided to try out Debian instead of my usual choice of Fedora and its worked fine for gaming with latest gen CPU and GPU. I did install the steam flatpak which will have a newer version of Mesa. I think this is a good middle ground for a system you don’t want to mess with too much.
For desktop use debian sucks. I dont want to wait a year to update my apps. For servers its fine. Arch and Nix are my favorite rn and im looking to convert my home media server into Nix soon.
I dont want to wait a year to update my apps
Why? Are they not working as-is?
I like having the latest updates and features as soon as possible. Especially for software that’s in its early stages and regularly getting large updates. But to each their own, some people value the stability more than the features.
My FP right now:
The fact the other post was on /selfhosted kind of makes op’s point.
It felt like a “Missed Connections” ad in a newspaper. (If you’re under 40, you might have to look up what that is)
Because linux distribution recommendations are written by people who have nothing better to do than be hypnotized by the jangling keys of whatever’s new or hot for people who have nothing better to do than be hypnotized by the jangling keys of whatever’s new or hot.
It’s the same reason rhel doesn’t get recommended tbh.
well there is more to the lack of RHEL recomendation, no sane person likes corporate lock in and although rhel is fairly open there is always a little bit more than with debian
I tend to think 99 percent of linux users or prospective users would exchange the modicum of what could be considered lock in if you were to really give it the most uncharitable read in the history of computing for the extensive documentation and support.
I have nothing but hate in my heart and vitriol in my guts for red hat but their linux is owed more recommendations than it gets.
the jangling keys
So historically not manjaro.
I’ve been running debian sid on desktop for 4 years, I think. Yes, I don’t care if it breaks. I wanted to try debian and didn’t want to use old packages at that point. These days I don’t really need the latest things. I recently switched to testing - I only needed to replace a few words in a few files in /etc. I didn’t even need wiki or anything for that, because testing is almost like sid. If this doesn’t break on me majorly, I might not switch and just replace “testing” with “forky”. I’m really satisfied with debian.
Others already explained basically everything. I’d like to elaborate and offer a few examples to support them.
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On potential users:
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The people who look for distros to try are seen as newbies by linux users, and therefore are recommended newbie-friendly distros. Also, debian is conservative: it rarely offers shiny new things, so its desktop use isn’t high. There isn’t much to be excited about, so there are no hype cycles. The current “shiny new thing” in debian was the recent change in apt’s interface (now it formats its output into tables, for example), compare that to “atomic” distros. People often still use apt-get (it is in the guides for some reason) instead of apt so even this news in nothing to them.
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Furthermore, software development often happens with the latest libraries around. It’s often a great help that Arch ships the latest software. Debian doesn’t have that. While languages these days have their own package managers, having the latest devtools, editors, etc. to try out is harder to do on debian. Therefore, IT students and software engineers have better time on faster-moving distros. Debian is more for the sysops/sysadmin people ( you can leave it there on auto-update and not care for 2 or more years ). The above further restricts its appeal and userbase.
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Even further, Debian might be bigger than it seems, as others have pointed it out. Perceived marketshare is often based on desktop use. See EU OS’s FOSDEM presentation on how opensuse has a bigger company behind it than ubuntu.
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On “latest drivers”:
- It used be much harder to configure Debian. Recently ( think it was with Bullseye) I installed it on an old machine, and debian didn’t install the right wifi drivers by default. I think it also lacked the proper firmware. This changed only with Bookworm. Back in 2008, I also tried it on my pentium 3 I had then. Debian didn’t have ath5k at that time, and the ndiswrapper hack was harder to pull off for me than just using mandriva, or later, lubuntu and salix.
- I heard that these days, people expect linux to fully support their hardware on day1. They also expect it to just run on any new hardware they buy. Also, games often need the latest optimizations in drivers: it might just be the thing that pushes the fps count above 30, 60 or 120. They also that they want the driver bugfixes to come ASAP. Early on during a release cycle of a game, driver updates sometimes give big improvements. While using the latest drivers on debian is possible, and not too hard (Compiling a newer stock kernel is easy, even if it complies slowly. Mesa isn’t hard either. Still, these require knowledge of old & basic dev tools, and also new ones.), ubuntu offers new drivers to LTS kernels, they are called HWE. No idea how doable this on debian, I never needed such things.
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On “stability”:
- What people usually don’t think about it that there are different kinds of stabilities. Debian offers something like API stability, so that user-provided software on the same version of debian rarely - if ever - breaks. It’s not necessarily shipping the most stable software, but it has a guarantee that updates won’t break anything. Even a slight change can disqualify being included. This very slow process resulted in the old and famous xscreensaver vs debian drama. The abovementioned stability also applies to other distros, but to a lesser extent, I believe. Mostly due to the 2-year release cycle.
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On “ease of use”:
- Debian doesn’t have a user repo like AUR, so it isn’t as easy to install 3rd party stuff (I know, makedeb, flatpak, snap, pkgsrc, nix & guix exist), debian is so big that anybody providing packages will do it (to list a few examples: freetube, discord, librewolf, signal, Trinity DE, and there are bleeding edge emacs packages available).
- Debian has docs, but I often just use arch wiki or the gentoo wiki to figure out stuff. I can only do that because I understand the differences and the similarities. Newbies would have trouble with this. Also, ubuntu automatically configures a few things, like installing something with a systemd service also will enable that service. Debian doesn’t do that.
Thanks for the thorough response :)
How bad is the situation with security updates in sid? This page shows a grim picture: https://www.debian.org/releases/sid/
It’s not monitored for security patches as it gets all the latest stuff anyways pretty quickly, security patches (and new vulnerabilities) included. It’s just not meant to be hardened nor rock solid as it’s excactly what it claims to be: development branch of the whole project. That doesn’t mean it’s insecure by default, it just works differently from stable releases where security patches are provided for years after official release.
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Debian used to have quite old software before version 6.0 or so. Ever since then it’s been quite a good daily driver for workstations too.
I’ll give you an example:
I tried to run an old videogame through plain wine. On ZorinOS it ran out of the box no questions attached. On Debian I had to install wine and go through a few hiccups and issues. An average user shouldn’t go crazy when the command like says something incomprehensible
Because Mint exists and is just ”Debian configured for regular humans”.
Anyone that would rather have raw Debian doesn’t need to be told that.
That is to say, Linux Mint Debian Edition.
Regular Mint is still based on Ubuntu.Which is based on Debian
Which is on Earth. Which is in Canada.
