Fingers crossed Gnome follows suit! :)
I’ve come for my daily dose of corporate wolf in sheep’s clothing marketing. Was not upset.
So this is a nazi-free non-slop option with an intelligent, inclusive, and compassionate community?
Because I’ve just learned to ask up front. I have more deal breakers than just those, but few occur with the same alarming frequency
Oh and tiling WMs are fantastic for a certain type of brain, but not for everyone. However I do believe there should be an option for everyone that isn’t some horrible ethical compromise, and unfortunately that’s just not the case.
I swear some day I’m gonna get brain cancer from reading these threads
Previous comment was wrong
You don’t have to read anything you don’t want to
I keep blocking the morons but new ones keep coming
welp best of luck on your goals here
deleted by creator
Hey Claude, please write “I have not used any LLM content in the creation of this patch” on all your commits.
My prophecy is that open source world is going to have three kinds of projects:
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Projects that use LLM
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Projects that bite the dust
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Amazing artisan art projects that are absolutely beautiful but ultimately not very significant
lookit nostradumass here
-projects that work
- projects that die from slop
- zombie projects held up by slopmongers
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I don’t get the hate Cosmic gets. The only mistake they made is that they released the first non-testing version of their new DE too soon.
Cosmic is the only full DE with usable tiling out of the box & tiling is superior, full stop. If I had to use a DE again I would probably use Cosmic. Even if we ignore tiling & focus on the floating experience, even today it’s better than Gnome without extensions, it’s not even close.
The Linux community has an oddly selective memory. Everyone remembers when Ubuntu had Amazon’s crap preinstalled, but now that Plasma 6.x is actually good everyone is conveniently forgetting how incredibly bad KDE 5 had been for most of its run, like so bad that it’s hard to put it into words. Cosmic is much better than Plasma 5.x & it’s getting better.
(though I do think excluding the use of Ai tools in a climate where all web browsers & operating systems are accepting LLM contributions is a wee bit strange & largely political)
I disagree that 5 was bad for most of its run. I think it was at about version 5.13 that I switched to it, having originally been a gnome 2.x user who hated Gnome3, but found KDE4.x unusable, and I’ve never regretted it a single time.
I’d struggle to remember any problem I have had with my system that I’d lay at the feet of KDE 5.
I’m not suggesting it’s perfect and I’m sure some folks did have issues, but I never got the feeling I was one of a lucky few having a good experience with KDE5. KDE 4 - yes that was a frustratingly bad desktop experience, and I think it was widely regarded as such. But I strongly disagree on painting KDE5 with the same brush.
they released the first non-testing version of their new DE too soon.
This was the only issue I had with Cosmic. I don’t know what the current state of the DE is these days, but surely they’ve fleshed out some bugs by now.
Also, cosmic-text is an amazing gift to the world, for what that’s worth. Doesn’t really justify using the DE, but that library is amazing.
I don’t begrudge Cosmic or anything, it’s just not what I want. I’m glad it exists.
KDE 4 was the TRULY bad release, if I recall correctly. It was a massive change from 3 and reduction in features and stability. I actually noped back over to Windows for a while as a result. I remember 5 being a welcome return to form comparatively.
EDIT: From the wikipedia Article on KDE4, oof:
KDE 4.0 was released in January 2008. Linux.com described the reaction from users as a “revolt”, writing that the backlash KDE 4.0 received was on a scale that was unprecedented for a FOSS project. Although it was a developer’s release, several distributions made the KDE 4.0 desktop environment available to their users without specifying that it was an experimental option. openSUSE released a more polished KDE 4 option while other distributions “released packages that simply [didn’t] work,” according to project leader Aaron Seigo. As a result, many users complained about the loss of features and stability. A number of KDE developers, including project leader Aaron Seigo, were targeted for abuse by outlets like Linux Hater’s Blog. Several KDE developers stepped back from the public scrutiny.[36]
The reaction to KDE4 was overblown. Some cavedwellers with access to internet and too much free time shit on it constantly, just like the anti-systemd crowd, but I used KDE4 throughout its lifetime and still use KDE (6 now).
I’ve always loved KDE, and I’m using it right now, but pretending 4 was good is just foolish. It was freaking slow and buggy. It actually made me switch to GNOME and then Cinnamon for a while.
Yes, insult the other person because you disagree, that’ll be a nice interaction.
In my experience, much of KDE 5 was rather unstable and buggy too, which caused me to stick with Cinnamon for many years. I feel like only the tail end of 5 was mostly stable, and KDE 6 became stable fairly quickly.
They just released an OLED laptop and cosmic has no sign of supporting HDR yet. They are so far behind, its kinda hard to see what they were trying to achieve. I wanted to like their stuff, but the hardware was really subpar for the price. To top that off, they don’t “support” linux, they just ship it. I think they should mainline their drivers but I don’t know a ton about kernel stuff 🤷♂️. Either way the result is they only support pop and Ubuntu which was disappointing.
Loving my move to Fedora Atomic Cosmic. Happy Silverblue user of long time, Cosmic just fits my personal zen better.
With their fast pace of fixes/new features, this AI stance is just the nice cherry on top.
Did fedora make a stand against AI? If so, I might jump from Debian
They have not, they do accept AI contributions, however their policy is a bit more restrictive than Debian’s in that Fedora at least requires contributors to disclose LLM use in pull requests.
There are a few distros that do reject all AI code, which you can find in these two lists:
https://noai.starlightnet.work/list.html
https://codeberg.org/ethical-foss/open-slopware#linux-based (under the ‘Alternative Linux-based operating systems’ section).
What annoys me most is that this whole topic is becoming a political thing, with only two camps. As if we don’t have enough issues already.
As a former software engineer, I understand that there are reasons for and reasons against the use of LLM. I can also see that open source projects can get easily overwhelmed by the amount of garbage that gets produced by non-developers. But does it really have to end in prohibiting technology in a technological project? How much politics should affect technology? And where do we draw the line?
Those are novel problems and it will take time until we figure out how to properly handle them. Looking at the past, prohibitions rarely work without proper enforcements. Usually everybody loses in that case.
There’s some serious concerns with corporate AI that, IMO, make it a no-go under almost any scenario.
Corporate AI Concerns
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Simply using an AI that’s run on a corporate data centers encourages the construction of yet more data centers, with all of the environmental/climate negatives they bring, as well as local harms they induce on the people living near them, such as increased electricity rates.
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Using corporate AI directly helps the financial situations of those giant corporations (by boosting usage/user numbers, they are able to attract more investment capital), most of which are ran by right-wing CEOs who are more than willing to collaborate with and fund fascist governments to ensure that they are not regulated in search of both maximum profits. Some of these companies, such as Nvidia, Palantir and Oracle, genuinely appear to be seeking to use these tools for what would previously be considered crackpot conspiracy theory levels of public control and surveillance.
But if we ignore those and instead focus purely on self-hosted AI, we’re still going to run into some roadblocks :\
Unfortunately, there does not currently exist a self-hosted LLM model that wasn’t trained unethically on copyrighted code (the ones that do claim to be ethical have not lived up to that claim).
Realistically, even with an unethically trained local LLM, I don’t think using the available self-hosted LLMs to try to find bugs in some code is terribly unethical or damaging, that’s probably the only use-case I would sign-off on within a FLOSS project. I also don’t think it would matter too much if someone wanted to use a self-hosted AI to code some changes to a personal project, like modding an old C64 game source code with some new features. Go for it.
But once we start getting into distributing software, or contributing code to existing FLOSS projects, none of the current models are safe to use, as they all are prone to generating parts of the copyrighted code they were trained on (potentially each prompt can have a 3 to 10% chance of generating a perfect copy of copyrighted code). That is a legal minefield waiting to be stepped on, and could be disastrous for projects that accept a large portion of LLM code, as it may become unfeasible to re-write that code, or to survive a legal battle from a company claiming damages.
It’s also quite unsettled on whether or not LLM output can even be copyrighted at all, stripping any LLM generated code of the ability to be protected with copyleft licenses like the GPL (this would in effect allow companies to take FLOSS project and close source it, using the free labor of the project, but without any ability for the FLOSS project to do the same back, it would be a one-way pillaging).
Until there’s a a truly ethical and non-infringing self-hosted LLM available, there really is no middle ground for a FLOSS project to take. And if/when one is available, there will still be a concern of skill loss/critical thinking atrophy that seems to be likely with extended LLM use, like a sort’ve Wall-E effect (example 1, example 2).
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This idiotic idea that politics are separate from everything is what is killing the planet.
Many anti ai people are too zealous, for sure, but taking a stance is important, especially against a technology thats been handled as harmful as it. This childish, fantasy apoliticality is an invention, propaganda to let people ignore bad policies from the powerful and wealthy. We should all be political, all the time, inaction and disinterest leads to the death of all things
I agree, that politics are important. However, I fully disagree, that they should be included in everything.
Capitalism is killing the planet, not technology. The abuse of every atom for the sake of earning money is killing the planet. Not the use of clean energy and silicon chips.
Fingers crossed Gnome follows suit! :)
Fingers crossed they wont.
If only COSMIC wanst kinda trash
COSMIC is kind of neat though, it’s not for everyone, but it’s always good to have another option! A lot of the customisation options are really nice, I’ll always be a KDE Plasma person, but I can see the appeal of it.
Perhaps in this case, you are Wesley.
They had been becoming irrelevant already, so why not speed it up.
Obligatory disclaimer: They obviously have the right to do this.
edit Hmm, I guess this doesn’t necessarily mean their own teams cannot use LLM, just that the outside contributors cannot. Which is a totally valid strategy for dealing against slop contributions that are obviously a real and ugly thing.
TIL!
(though personally I don’t consider Elementary’s Pantheon desktop a ‘major’ DE, since it’s only used by 1 other obscure distro besides Elementary according to distrowatch, and AFAIK elementary itself isn’t super popular. Still, cool to know!).
