I used to think social media was good because thanks to them, governments couldn’t fabricate false narratives. But it turns out that they are still doing it.
Unequivocally YES, humanity was much better off before. MySpace was ok, you could make a profile and link with other like minded people, but Facebook quickly turned everything to trash. Constant “sharing” of shit posts has been extremely detrimental to society. Now that it is largely populated and propagated by bots, it’s even more ruinous.
Social media was not a mistake, but unregulated social media was.
The whole incentive for businessman to ‘innovate’ in tech is to skirt around the law. We have had laws about theft for centuries, but now since its ‘digital’ theft we have to write new laws for some reason?
Just an example, but social media/tech unregulated is what got us here.
Social media was not a mistake, but unregulated social media was.
You’re so right, the open source, non-profit threadiverse would be so much better if bourgeois states censored us.
I agree, the problem is the Sillicon Valley, VC-backed business model. If it was allowed to develop slower and less commercially, what would evolve would have been much less unhealthy for society
No. Capitalist control over social media was a mistake.
social media was unavoidable. there’s just too much curiosity about the novelty. but yeah, it’s questionable today.
Nope. Capitalist social media was a mistake, as a corollary of capitalism being a mistake, itself a corollary of developing hierarchical and authoritarian societies being a mistake.
The Fediverse itself provides an imperfect but serviceable implementation of a liberatory social media. The fact that we are both speaking to each other on proletarian class-conscious (in particular, anarchist) servers demonstrates that social media can be useful to spread class-conscious perspectives, in particular anarchist perspectives in direct opposition to State control.
Aren’t capitalism and hierarchical societies in general a necessary stage of human development?
Aren’t capitalism and hierarchical societies in general a necessary stage of human development?
My answer is no. Capitalism and hierarchical societies have achieved impressive things…in spite of their capitalism and hierarchy, not because of it. If our society went directly to anarchy, we would have been better off by now.
How do you see anarchy in the past (like, say, in ancient Rome)? And why do you think humanity went to hierarchy? Genuinely curious.
How do you see anarchy in the past (like, say, in ancient Rome)?
… Not to be contentious, but ancient Rome was not anarchy in any meaningful sense. Like not even the dictionary definition. Rome was pretty firmly lorded over by a State, and that State maintained the “”“order”“” of the ruling class for generations.
What anarchists mean by “anarchy” is a society without hierarchy. Some hunter-gatherer societies were surprisingly horizontal in their organization, but these societies were not, in general, anarchic, because they likely still had some hierarchies like sexism, in-group/out-group dynamics, and authoritarian social structures. We can look to the past for examples of specific horizontal and anti-authoritarian practices, but none of these societies were truly anarchic because they had not yet grasped the importance of abolishing all hierarchy.
Better (but imperfect) historical approximations of anarchy at scale were Revolutionary Catalonia and the Makhnovshcina.
And why do you think humanity went to hierarchy?
I think the big thing was agriculture. IMO, we were not psychologically prepared as a species to master agriculture so quickly. Some people were able to build up huge stockpiles of resources within a few generations. Once they got their power, they refused to give it up. Thus, the powerful structured our world around their whims over generations. Capitalism is the latest such scheme. Hierarchies maximize the variables authoritarians care about: control, domination, and abuse. It is only natural that abusers establish systems that best reward their kind.
To be clear, I’m absolutely not against agriculture. Quite the opposite! In my view, actively making sure that the fruits of humanity are equally available to all is necessary to break the feedback loop that enabled authoritarians to take power. But more generally: we need to bake horizontalness, autonomy, agency, and free association into all future systems and organizations from minute one.
How do you see anarchy in the past (like, say, in ancient Rome)?
… Not to be contentious, but ancient Rome was not anarchy in any meaningful sense.
Okay, I might have worded that bad. What I meant was how do you see historical societies that were hierarchical, like ancient Rome, going anarchical instead?
IMO, we were not psychologically prepared as a species to master agriculture so quickly.
So the problem is dismatch between psychological and material development?
The indus valley civilisation was just as technologically advanced as ancient rome despite having a much lower population. If you are interested in the origins of hierarchy, LuckyBlackCat made a good video about that.
Didn’t know about Indus civilisation. Very interesting!
If you have any other questions feel free to ask around :>
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I have the utopian hope that this is just a matter of circumstances… and how badly off they are. The majority is still doing so well that they can afford to be “apolitical.”
Corporate owned social media is always going to have a far right leaning stance, with algorythms leading to what people watch.
I still say the algorithm was the flaw. Misinformation can be combated with facts, but only if you see the rebuttals.
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No. It is a tool. Like all tools humans have created, we’ve decided to bash the working class over the head with it.
russia’s propaganda game is bush league compared to the americans. you should see the amaze-balls industrial, world-wide scale of how the americans get their propaganda laundered through ngo’s like usaid and national endowment for democracy and then doles out in tiny pieces like dog pills in a dog treats on media platforms like reddit, facebook, wikipedia, cnn, npr, fox new, cbc, abc, bbc, le monde, der speigel, etc.
here’s the stanford/bowling-green detail of it: https://etd.ohiolink.edu/acprod/odb_etd/r/etd/search/10?p10_accession_num=bgsu1711480290212777&clear=10&session=112965025945105
Got a tor friendly version of that article?
does the link not work for you somehow?
EDIT: maybe you’re asking for an easier to understand version and the best i can do is this ai summary:
This dissertation, completed by Benjamin Thomason at Bowling Green State University in 2024, critically examines the role of US “democracy promotion” as a tool of empire, focusing on the National Endowment for Democracy (NED) and the United States Agency for International Development (USAID).
Core Argument: Drawing on a critical Gramscian Marxist perspective, the author argues that the NED and USAID function as “engines of intellectual warfare” in US foreign intervention. They mobilize communications and organizational resources to reinforce elite hegemonic narratives, thereby facilitating neoliberal and neoconservative US foreign policy objectives abroad.
Methodology & Historical Context: The study traces how covert Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) media and civil society operations during the Cold War evolved into the institutionalized, “pseudo-overt” democracy promotion apparatus that served as a pretext and method for US interventionism after the Cold War.
Case Studies: To support its thesis, the dissertation examines several major US interventions since 1983, including:
The Contra War in 1980s Nicaragua Operation Cyclone in 1980s Afghanistan The 2000 overthrow of Slobodan Milošević in Yugoslavia The 2002 coup against Hugo Chávez in Venezuela The 2004 coup against Jean-Bertrand Aristide in Haiti The 2014 Euromaidan events in UkraineSyria Focus: A dedicated chapter analyzes the US-led intervention in the Syrian Civil War from 2011. It details how USAID provided monetary, media, and civil society support to what the author characterizes as primarily sectarian, theocratic, and Salafi rebel groups opposing the Ba’athist government, demonstrating the “moderate rebel industry” and narrative-control infrastructure.
no i meant something I could access over the tor browser. I get blocked by network security :/
your system is blocking a public university’s website and describing it as malicious – you have more immediate problems to fix.
your system is blocking a public university’s website and describing it as malicious – you have more immediate problems to fix.
you have it backwards - that is the website blocking anonymous proxies (such as tor, which they said they’re using) from accessing the site.
oic, i missed the part about tor.
thats… not how websites work
Dude uses AI, of course theyre an idiot
Depends what you mean by social media.
Digital socialization is not necessarily bad.
Easy self-publishing at scale is not necessarily bad.
A marketplace for human attention, where products are optimized for “stickiness” and “eyeball-hours” is bad, but doesn’t necessarily need to be social media. (Buzzfeed comes to mind, and Ricki Lake before that.)
The social media that we ended up with is essentially a chokehold on the means of digital socialization, forcing users to perform for an audience instead of connecting to individuals, and capturing the economic value of that performance as an asset for the platform owners.
We could’ve ended up with something quite different.
Here’s a hot take though:
Products that are built under these conditions will inevitably tend towards a shape that reflects the logic of the market, and they continue to reflect that logic even when financial incentives are removed.
For instance, Lemmy is very Reddit-shaped, and therefore reflects some of the market logic behind Reddit, even after you stick it on the fediverse.
Edit: Barry’s Economics has an excellent video on exactly what sucks about the social dynamics baked into these platforms: https://youtube.com/watch?v=Dqh17U3tymU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4F9QzXjUB10
Abigail busts some myths about social media and democracy
I see many problems with it echoing those of mainstream mass media. Especially with the advent of billionaire-owned social media and the increasing viability of automated posting, we see the same inequality present itself - the richest can pay for bigger microphones and astroturf the place. Even just places like Lemmy and connected tools show what a world of difference it makes to be a little further away from the mass bot armies and the profit motive.
I do believe there are some types of social media which can be constructive, but these are not like the general-audience mass social media we see (facebook/insta/tiktok/youtube/reddit) or even the more direct derivatives, like most of the well-known Lemmy instances. But one must have an idea of why the social media is being made and design it around that purpose. Lemmy is ultimately a reddit alternative. And its most popular communities were/are either bunkers for banned communities or clones of subreddits, hosted on very general instances. There’s no defining vision. It’s an improvement, yes!, but it’s far from what a digital social space can be.
