•  pingveno   ( @pingveno@lemmy.ml ) 
      11•2 years ago

      It wouldn’t be out of line if we assume the Donbass region was not included. After all, the average Ukrainian has had their life turned upside down by the Russian invasion and occupation. Like with Sweden and Finland, it would be natural to be attracted to inclusion in a treaty organization that would provide protection going forward.

      Regarding the opposition, even the supposedly “pro-Russian” parties had turned pretty anti-Russia once the invasion started. I’m still mystified why there isn’t more pressure from the nations backing the Ukrainian government to return to the principals of a liberal democracy. This is no time to resort to authoritarianism.

          •  ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆   ( @yogthos@lemmy.ml ) 
            5•2 years ago

            Literally about everything. Your claim that Ukrainians outside of Donbass are uniformly pro regime is not based in reality. This is likely true for parts of western Ukraine, but certainly not true for Ukraine as a whole. Especially places like Odessa or Kharkov.

            Sweden and Finland are not gaining any actual protection going forward. In fact, they’ve put themselves in a much more dangerous position by renouncing neutrality. As many experts have repeatedly explained, the reason Ukraine is in the situation that it’s in is precisely because of its ambitions to integrate into NATO.

            I strongly encourage you to read this report from the Royal United Services Institute in UK that clearly explains why NATO cannot offer any real protection to countries.

            The reason there isn’t any pressure from the governments backing Ukraine to return to “freedom and democracy” is because those governments do not give a shit about these things. The west has consistently propped up some of the most heinous regimes known to man.

            The basic facts are entirely contrary to the statements you make.

            •  pingveno   ( @pingveno@lemmy.ml ) 
              7•2 years ago

              Your claim that Ukrainians outside of Donbass are uniformly pro regime is not based in reality.

              I claimed that it’s probable that the average Ukrainian, whose life has been put into turmoil by Russia’s invasion, may not have many warm fuzzy feelings towards the government attacking their country and may be in favor joining NATO to prevent future attacks.

              Especially places like Odessa or Kharkov.

              Those cities have been bombed extensively by Russia as part of the invasion. Even if there was once much interest in those cities to chart a more pro-Russia course, I doubt there is much anymore. Just because a city has primarily Russian speakers doesn’t mean they will love Russia when Russia rains bombs on their homes.

              I strongly encourage you to read this report from the Royal United Services Institute in UK that clearly explains why NATO cannot offer any real protection to countries.

              It’s a good report, but it doesn’t say that. It just says that for a longer haul war, the US especially is going to need to change its strategy around ammunition

              •  ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆   ( @yogthos@lemmy.ml ) 
                3•2 years ago

                I claimed that it’s probable that the average Ukrainian, whose life has been put into turmoil by Russia’s invasion, may not have many warm fuzzy feelings towards the government attacking their country and may be in favor joining NATO to prevent future attacks.

                You assume that out of ignorance.

                Those cities have been bombed extensively by Russia as part of the invasion. Even if there was once much interest in those cities to chart a more pro-Russia course, I doubt there is much anymore. Just because a city has primarily Russian speakers doesn’t mean they will love Russia when Russia rains bombs on their homes.

                Here’s what people as they themselves put it.

                It’s a good report, but it doesn’t say that. It just says that for a longer haul war, the US especially is going to need to change its strategy around ammunition

                What it very plainly says is that the west lacks industrial capacity for the kind of war that Russia is currently waging. If you don’t understand that, then read the report again.

                •  pingveno   ( @pingveno@lemmy.ml ) 
                  5•2 years ago

                  You assume that out of ignorance.

                  Then explain to me why Ukrainians would like being invaded and bombed relentlessly. Please, I’m all ears.

                  Here’s what people as they themselves put it.

                  That guy is embedded with the the Russia army and goes on Infowars. He is simply an untrustworthy source, a propagandist.

                  Edit: More from this video.

                  What it very plainly says is that the west lacks industrial capacity for the kind of war that Russia is currently waging.

                  The West currently lacks that specific industrial capacity. It could definitely shift production to counter Russia, especially as part of a longer war.

  •  pingveno   ( @pingveno@lemmy.ml ) 
    11•2 years ago

    I would be curious to see how well they were able to represent the totality of Ukraine’s population if we’re including the occupied regions. Those likely would have different characteristics. That said, I wouldn’t be surprised if this more or less reflects the underlying sentiment fairly accurately, given that Russia has spent the last few months running tanks into Ukraine and indiscriminately lobbing missiles at shopping malls and apartment buildings.

  •  Kvs   ( @Krivoklat@lemmy.ml ) 
    10•2 years ago

    It amuses me to see the Americans and their puppet states (NATO) giving their opinion, basically repeating what their government says.

    Lamentablemente Estados Unidos y Ucrania ya ganaron la guerra de propaganda.