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- fragfeddit@feddit.de
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- internetisbeautiful@feddit.de
Wanted to ask you about this article, how do you remember the early days of the internet (I was sadly too young at that time). Do you wish it back? And do you think it can ever be like that again? I would be very interested
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I miss written tutorials. I hate how every tutorial is a YouTube now. I don’t want to watch 15 minutes and forget to pay attention for the second that has the detail that I am missing or it just doesn’t show. Even short tutorials are 3 minutes when it could have been a ten second read. I want to skim a page and go directly to the point. Has writing really become that hard to do?
Video title: “How to unlock the demon door on the fourth level of Demon Smasher Elite”
“Hello, video game fans! Don’t forget to like and subscribe! Last week I posted a video that isn’t relevant to this video, but I need to drag out the time on this one to game the algorithm, so I’m going to rehash and plug that video. I’m going to shout out to my Patreon subscribers with ridiculous usernames I won’t pronounce well. Now let’s get to the part you’ve waiting for: I’m going to play through the entire thirty minutes worth of level four before you get to the demon door and I will stop to make useless commentary on the bad guys you encounter. Okay, now you’ve skipped forward to what looks like the area before the demon door part of the stage, but I’m going to talk about some unrelated anecdote about this game or maybe the game devs, and then plug my Patreon account and mention a completely different game that I’ll be streaming next. Oh and here’s the five seconds of the video you wanted to see when I tell you to click the right mouse button on the hidden lever next to the demon door in order to open it, except you aren’t seeing it because you skipped forward too far and gave up. Don’t forget to like and subscribe! This video has been brought to you by Nord VPN.”
Now let’s get to the part you’ve waiting for: I’m going to play through the entire thirty minutes worth of level four before you get to the demon door and I will stop to make useless commentary on the bad guys you encounter.
About a month ago, I’d gotten back to replaying Suikoden Tactics, and there’s this whole quest-accepting mechanic that’s the easiest way to rack up skill points. But one of them is a series of “go get X out of the murder death ruins for me.”
That place is pure ass and permadeath is a thing, so I’m not just going to go jaunting down to the final floor because I’m bored. And for the life of me, I could not remember which floor whatever item was even on in order to know whether it was worth trying for right now.
This game is old enough that there are almost no discussions about it. I’m rooting through abandoned forums from 2005 looking for gems. God bless forums from 2005 btw.
Somehow, there is a single video on this subject. It is a series of videos as the youtuber fights through the entire dungeon in one go. There is commentary. There are no timestamps. He does not split the videos according to floor. The information I’m looking for is somewhere in here, but I have zero guarantee he’s even treasure hunting, so he may not mention it.
I could have cried.
1996 is on the latter end of what I consider the early internet, but I really miss the Video Game FAQ Archive (GameFAQs) which was murdered by a thousand cuts culminating in the death of the gamefaqs.com domain. FAQs used to be so good, these days the same information is dispersed over 50 pages of an HTML “guide” that is more ads than information, and often for less complete information, if it’s not just a YouTube video that’s even worse and shows you things but doesn’t explain them at all.
Same. I missed those days where you can just control F to the part of the page and get the info you wanted. Now it’s wait for 2 ads to play, scroll through the intro and then a bunch of scrubbing to find it.
Has writing really become that hard to do?
It’s probably more to do with discoverability and monetization. I’m generalizing a ton, but I feel like there isn’t even a ton of super useful YouTube tutorials outside of beginner content because that gets the most views.
Yeah, you could skim pages, or read thoroughly, search in the text, easily jump back to the previous paragraph to skim a bit again, google (or DDG) for terms you remember from an article to find it again, etc.
Not just tutorials, I enjoyed reading tech or product reviews, like the original Anandtech when Anand was there, that all seems to be going the way of obnoxious youtubers.
YES. And when you find a written version you have to scroll past a mile of backstory to get to the point.
YES, this is such a peeve for me!!! I’ve developed an aversion to viewing video content unless it’s for something I truly need to see done. And even then, I’m more likely to check wikihow and endure their gifs than I am to watch someone’s video. It’s just so overdone.
Has writing really become that hard to do?
The cynic in me says yes.
This is one oft the longest Threads I’ve eher Seen in lemmy.
Yes. Unfortunately many comments are the same, because the mastodon users can’t see each others replies. This comment somehow got trendy over there.
My inbox has about 200 replies telling me about video monetization and 100 just tagging my username.
@bstix Yes. Also when you’re blind, software tutorials in particular are either 15 minutes of nothing but music, or someone going “to do x thing, all you need to do is click this button, drag this slider to here, click this until it says this, type this into there, and you’re done.”
@x0 I love Whisper for this. Turns these videos into nice transcripts that I can search through.
@bstix Yea, searching is basically slow, and unsearchable.
However, a proper setup tutorial has the virtue of being complete. People will typically forget to write ‘import random’ in their python docs, or ‘systemctl restart transmission’, because they think it’s obvious.
With video tutorials, you get the whole thing, and you can literally see where you’re deviating from the script.
Of course that’s possible with written text, but I seldom find it.
@bstix couldn’t agree more!
Most of my students preferred video, even if with very few exceptions slides + text was better for them (for the stuff we did).
Also *good* video takes forever to make, good text+image tutorials slightly less forever but the search is much easier!
@bstix 💯 embedded videos forced to fit into 256x256 pixels where you can’t read shit.
@bstix @Provider I’ve been a programmer for over a decade. I inevitably spend part of every day searching the web for very specific or very general problems. Not once have I watched a video to find those answers. There is nothing more boring than watching someone else write a todo list app (seriously, stop making these) for exactly 10:01 minutes.
I know what you mean. “-site:youtube.com” has become part of a lot of my Google searches.
@bstix
And wondering why you need X or Y that doesnt relate to what youre doing only to find out it was a commercial 🙃
@Provider @rhinocratic
@bstix @Provider I can’t see any of the responses (must be a mastodon thing) but I can tell you that this not the first time I’ve seen this complaint and it has had an impact: I had several tutorials to produce this summer and planned on doing them as videos. As the summer approached I saw comments like this and switched to blog posts instead. So, I just wanted to let you know you’re not shouting into the void.
I can’t see any of the responses (must be a mastodon thing)
This explains a lot. Most of the replies to this comment here on Lemmy are from Mastodon users stating the same thing about video monetization.
There’s a few good comments from people who actually do need video tutorials for crafting, sports and DIY, or from being dyslexic, but most don’t like the YouTube format.
One big hurdle for written blogs is to attract readers when Googles search engine has a preference for videos that makes them more money.
The worst are the videos that are little more than a Windows desktop and a syntesized voice of a tutorial that could be written. Additional negative points for instructions writen on Notepad on the screen on that video.
@bstix @Provider Trying to copy snippets of code to try / adapt out of the video sucks as well. I often don’t need/want to download an entire sample project from a link in the description.
Plus, given time constraints, I occasionally try to grab a few moments for tutorials while hanging out with family, sitting at a restaurant, or whatever else, so I’d have to watch videos muted as well.
Definitely always look for written form.
@bstix best example ever: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-ZTGpRMU04
@bstix @Provider God yes. I recently bought a bottle of rum that has a ridiculous ball valve built into the neck so my first attempt to pour it yielded nothing. Googled it & a YT video came up—something ridiculous like 7 minutes or longer—that could have been handled by a single sentence on the label. (Or better yet, not using a ball valve)
Oh gosh, this! I am way better at picking up what is relevant to me in a text article while scanning a text than waiting for thing to happen in a video. It’s so infuriating sometimes. Also, video streaming is using so much data that I would rather not do it when I am using mobile internet… So yeah, bring back text based tutorials…
@bstix @Provider A 3 minute video where someone shows you how to change your car’s headlights does tend to be better than a text description.
But it’s no longer a 3 minute video. It’s 25 minutes with a 5 minute sponsor segment, 15 minutes of faffing about, 3 minutes to plug pateron, 1 minute of intro and outro, and then 1 minute where they show the changing of the lightbulb but they cut away to a wide shot so the host can be shown clowning around and you can’t tell what he did.
OMFG this so much. Especially since most tutorials are ponderously slow and tedious. At the other extreme, are the ones with no subtitles and no sound where you are expected to follow a cursor flying around the screen clicking on things and are supposed to understand what happens. Those in particular should die in a fire.
@bstix soon will be very hard to find written ones that aren’t done by AI and full of dubious info.
@bstix damn, I thought I was alone with this. It’s incredibly frustrating that everything is a bloody YouTube. My theory is that people dream of those €€€s coming in from viewers.
@bstix @Provider @gvwilson writing is as hard as it ever was, but monetization of ad-hoc tutorial content is far easier and more lucrative on youtube. People are literally being paid to pollute your search results with video.
I’m actually optimistic; I think eventually youtube will face too much flak for this kind of garbage, it’ll start affecting viewership, they’ll tweak the algorithm or the partner program to punish bad tutorials and there’ll be a renaissance of the written stuff.
You also can’t “copy and paste” code from their video screen.
@bstix @Provider I was one of the guys who used to write those, for Microsoft and others. I was at Microsoft when the boom dropped and most and most written documentation projects in favor of minimal on line help files and CBT (pre-video scripted feature demonstrations. The project (the Word for Windows technical manual) was shuffled to Microsoft Press, which didn’t want it, leaving me in the middle. Fun.
Well, we write detail rich, history filled, alternative versions presented tutorials and how tos all the time on CoffeeGeek.
They can be found here:
@bstix @TechEnthusiast 100% This is especially annoying when I’m trying to find out how to do something in Python or whatever programming language I happen to be playing with. I am blind and use a screen reader. If the text is written, I can review word by word, line by line, character by character, ETC. This is important when trying to learn programming.
@bstix everyone wants to be a movie star
- shiveyarbles ( @shiveyarbles@beehaw.org ) 1•11 months ago
Yeah I hate that shit. I think it has something to do with monetizing on YouTube, has to be a certain length or somesuch
@bstix@feddit.dk @Provider@feddit.de
Written tutorials are not hard to do, but before I tell you what they are, just a reminder to like and subscribe to this post, it really helps me out.
Now let’s dive in!
Written tutorials are just not as easy to “monetize”
@bstix The ones that annoy me are the youTube videos that are text on the video but just a music overlay… no verbal instructions at all and since Ic an’t see the video period it is useless to me.
@bstix @Provider Same. I hate video tutorials. I play a lot of video games and sometimes I need to look something up, which sometimes means I get lucky and someone has written a decent walkthrough down, but often times means I have to start and stop a damn video over and over and over to get the information at the pace I need.
@bstix A friend once said “videos are for marketing; text is for instruction” and it made it all make sense.
@bstix @Provider From a creator’s perspective that sounds rather ungrateful. Why not be happy that people take the time to create free tutorials at all – in the way they see fit? We look for tutorials because they shorten the time we would otherwise need to figure things out. So it’s weird to say “you helped me save 2 hours of trial-and-error, but it took 3 minutes instead of 1, so damn you!”.
I get what you’re saying; but it often feels like a “bears favour”. The content creator wants to help and promises to help, but end up just wasting my time and not helping at all. It’s a lot easier to glance a document or webpage to see if it contains the thing you’re interested in, whereas in a video you’ll have to sit through it all before you can tell if it even contains the information.
@bstix @Provider Agree, provisionally. I mean, I do a lot of stuff where the visual element makes a great big honking difference & if someone tries to describe it in words & aren’t absolutely amazing at it, meaning can get really lost in written directions.
On the other hand I absolutely adore the printed how-to book that came with my 50’s sewing machine & it is, in fact, very meticulous in describing the physical situation (OK, it also has some drawings) 😊
Yes, video absolutely works well for some things like crafts, DIY projects etc. where the things might not be easily described in text.
It has always been an issue for published tech writing, that it is often obsolete by the time it hits the shelf.
But the bigger problem is that developers began to nurture an ‘oh, they’ll figure it out’ attitude and stopped thinking of instructions as necessary.
My biggest issue is interfaces have become some international secret code of mystery glyphs hiding functions several levels down in unexpected corners.
I mean written on a webpage, not published in book. The early Internet had lots of pages where people would write tutorials about their hobbies and tech instead of filming themselves mumbling into a headset.
@bstix this, but also sometimes I do need the video tutorial for certain things
@bstix I don’t think it’s because writing things is hard but people have become increasingly passive. Why sit down and read for an hour when you can just have someone explain it to you in only 15 minutes
Personally I prefer to go at my own pace when I have to learn something. Videos just aren’t good for that.
I remember:
- CompuServe chat rooms
- Playing Neverwinter Nights, the “original MMO” some say, on CompuServe
- Telnetting into my library to check out books and have them mailed to me instead of walking across town to the library.
- Usenet and FTP
- mIRC
- Randomly typing words or phrases and following them with .com to explore the web.
- Penny-Arcade
- Something Awful
- New grounds
- stickdeath.com
- Rotten.com
- Ogrish
- all the shock images like Goatse, Tubgirl, and Lemon Party
- Fark
- Digg
Heck, I even remember how I found out about the internet in the first place. I was reading the encyclopedia (I was following knowledge rabbit holes even before Wikipedia!) and got to the entry about it. Absolutely blew my little mind and I started begging my dad to show it to me since we had a computer.
original MMO
[types out an emote describing how my MUD character is laughing]
FYI: it was a MUD. The number of connections it allowed at once was the big selling factor, I think. To this day, it’s the only MUD I ever played with a subscription fee. On top of the ISP and dial-up phone charges. 😵💫
These days, I sometimes hop onto Materia Magicka. It’s a more modern MUD, but it’s been around since I was in high school and it’s pretty fun.
I still really miss the early days of IRC
There was this one program I used a lot back in the day; I’m pretty sure it was called Virtual Places.
Basically it was a browser that turned any web page into a chat room, and you could chat with anybody browsing the same page. Everybody would have these little square avatars; mine was an eyeball. And you could get a bunch of people on this little “bus” that somebody could “drive” and all move to a different web site together.
Oh. My god. Why did I never know about that. That would have been incredible. I feel honestly robbed now T_T
That shouldn’t be too hard to recreate. Maybe somebody already made it
It’s one of those things that makes me wish I knew more than ‘hello world’ level coding; I would love to resurrect this.
that sounds like a lot of fun, reminds me a bit of the online world in the Megaman Battle Network series. always loved the idea of a virtual “3rd place” if you will.
That’s really what it was like.
Nowadays it would be overrun with bots, though, I bet.
So, I was born in 1976 and nineteen years later I had high speed internet. I do often sit and think about those early days. For me, it was a lot about trying new things and making them work in a fashion that I wanted. I mean, aside from all the AOL chat rooms, Second Life, ICQ, etc. There was a lot of exploration and creativity. It wasn’t very different from Lemmy and Mastodon at the moment, to some degree.
Then came Web 2.0. I was reminiscing about that recently as I went through my old (circa 2007) Twitter account and deleted the dozens and dozens of Connected Apps and Services. Back when Twitter was an SMS service only, you had to use third party apps to connect to it. There were so many awesome apps back then, even before the iOS App Store. Then so many of those apps were bought by Google, Facebook, or Apple and turned into something else or just flat out killed because of the competition. Most of them didn’t make it. RIP PhotoVine.
What’s sad is that our collective creative expression is being used for likes and karma removed on social media (because you can actually get paid while the platform serves ads) rather than creating our own unique communities. It seems like the Fediverse gives some of that power back to us - if we choose to utilize it.
I mean, it’s great that these social platforms exist for people to so-easily create and express themselves but at the same time it’s all so repetitive and click baity / rage baity. The algorithm decides what to show you to keep your attention the longest, not to motivate or inspire you. It’s not super easy to find interesting quirky odd things that make you question the world so social media is creating a warped sense of reality where we all generally like the same things. It’s monotonous. It’s artificial. It’s driven by dopamine and ad revenue. I know it’s not all bad, but a lot of it is. I know there’s lots of weird and quirky and inspiring content out there. But a lot of it is not. The problem is how do we discover this stuff if we don’t already know about it?
What I miss about the early days of the internet is the lack of a handful of megacorps owning and curating everything we experience.
yes, same but also always remember https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARPANET
how clueless we were
I miss the real-ness and freedom of it.
Everything is marketed now.
Everything is about money and selling either what you’re doing or selling you crap.Its no longer an exploration, its gotten into exploitation, and the same groups and companies that were created to explore are now the primary exploiters.
Particularly Google needs to be torn up into tiny companies that are never allowed to communicate with one another in any fashion. They’re being allowed to do stuff that Microsoft never even got close to doing because being slapped back.
Fun fact: You can recreate a lot of this by starting your own website. Remember all the quirky, niche stuff you could stumble over? Large corporate sites forced all of that onto their server and baited people with millions of views and money. Everything not viral was punished and hidden away. But we can still jsut put stuff on the web for free or for a couple of bucks with a webhoster somewhere. It’s work, it serves small audiences and it might be totally overlooked. But it will be YOURS.
In that sense, promote your blog or website here: https://feddit.de/c/blogging
I miss usenet and webchats, mostly, and the fact that communities were smaller and you could feel you could actually contribute. Now it feels like you can already find what you wanted to say. And the opposite of it.
What I Definitely don’t miss is: popup with ads, the <blink> HTML Tag, the “under construction” images on websites that would never be updated ever again, and images that would take minutes to download.
What I know I will miss from 2020 in 10 years: contents written by actual humans instead of AI.
Oh man, this thread has been a real nostalgia trip for me.
Honestly, what I miss most about the early web of the 90’s was getting up from the computer, maybe to refill my drink, use the restroom, or to join the dinner table, and realize that I had just been browsing the web for hours. And it was fun! Clicking from page to page and site to site, exploring, reading, learning. It was all so fascinating and wonderful.
Nowadays, the Internet doesn’t seem to provoke that sense of wonder in me anymore. I don’t get up from the computer after many hours of browsing, unaware of how much time had passed, and go “Wow, that was a lot of fun. I can’t wait to do that again.”
Like others have said, I do kind of miss the quirky designs of all of those “perpetually under construction” websites hosted on Geocities and the like. People really expressed themselves and their interests in a way that’s just not as common anymore. And who didn’t love the GIFs of a guy jackhammering next to an under construction sign scattered throughout a web page?
Then I also have core memories from that time period, like Dial Up multiplayer games, where you entered your friend’s phone number into the game and your modem called their modem to play. Or going to the post office to mail a Money Order for an eBay purchase, since I was only 12 or 13 years old. Or Napster, and waiting hours to download a song that turned out to be something else. Or just waiting minutes to see an image download line by line. Or learning to hand write HTML for my own website. Or my Dad coming home with one of those “phone books for the Internet” and connecting to random FTP servers hosted by universities or NASA or whoever and exploring what they had available.
Good times.
I’ve been around long enough to have witnessed the internet go through many stages of development. From the early days of dialup internet (back then AOL Online was essentially a walled-off version of the internet - it was a big deal when the AOL software actually let people visit other websites). We had a different local dialup service so I had the full unadulterated internet.
Back in the mid 90’s, nearly everything on the internet was paywalled - without a credit card there was very little you could do. Even Encyclopedia sites (like Microsoft’s Encyclopedia Britanica) was behind a paywall. I don’t miss the slow speeds of dialup and I don’t miss the slow downloads (back in the day there was no way to pause and resume a download so if you lost connection, you had to restart!).
Of course real geeks know about newsgroups and how they fileshare so this was a moot point going back a very long time, but for the average internet user this wasn’t a thing for quite a while.
I spent a lot of time on the IRC (internet relay chat) which I used to fileshare. It was where I learned to download calculator games for my Texas Instruments graphing calculator that ultimately introduced me into programming my own games which gave me a foundation that I’ve used ever since in various careers over the decades.
What I miss is the civility of the internet pre-2008. When it was harder to get on the internet. Not everyone had a PC or knew how to use it to get online. Now with iPhones any troll could get online. That’s when I noticed a big shift in online communities.
You didn’t have to subscribe to everything
@Provider
I’m sad to see how many websites are padded with words for SEO.
You can often skip the first few paragraphs in which they just announce what they are going to discuss later on in the article.
Just get to the point.
It’s gotten so bad that I think we are inevitably heading to a future where we don’t even visit websites, we just have ‘AI’ digest the site (or sites) and give us a summary of the information. This sort of thing will probably have even more negative effects on web browsing because it will create new perverse incentives for content designed to be ingested by LLM’s instead of humans. Let alone the disruption on advertising revenue that drives a lot of the free web.
In 3 letters:
“a/s/l?”16/f/Cali
Always.
And then you would openly answer that you were ten. And then a 16yr old would offer to date you on Runescape.
I actually really miss topic-oriented chat rooms. I know they don’t seem to be liked/used at all whenever a site adds the ability, but back during AIM they were really the coolest.
I thought it was so fun to just go see what kinds of rooms someone had opened that day, or sit and listen to people. I could talk to complete strangers about my hobbies and we would even learn from each other, and often continue talking for months to a year.
I wasn’t exactly allowed to have friends, or in fact even speak to non-family, so the ability to socialize like that so often in my free time and then eventually come to know regulars at a favorite forum meant everything to me.
This was also way before all this shit, when (at least in my neck of the woods) being as clear and civil as possible, accepting nuance, and providing viewpoints/links were considered far more important than “whoever incites the mob first doesn’t get doxxed.”
I credit what debating skills I have entirely to the amount of time spent lurking on the forum and watching two specific users fight each other every time they met.
Before social media any website could have a sizeable of users. This meant that there were many websites with a sizeable community. Nowadays outside social media there are only dead blogs filled with ads and junk.
The dial up modem sounds. I don’t know why, but I genuinely miss them
I also miss the reduced footprint of mega companies with their “we are the internet” monopolistic tendencies. They still wanted to be the entire internet, but they weren’t.
I miss when Google’s motto was “Do no evil”.
I miss when Usenet was for something more than downloading porn and pirated content
I miss Geocities and everyone having their own shitty webpage
I don’t miss IRC and netsplits, or images that would load line by line and rearrange your page as they did. I don’t miss JavaScript popup ads or websites that played looping wav files with no easy option to stop them.
I can still tell you how fast a modem is connecting by the sound. Though I was less accurate by the time it got to k56flex and v.90 56k speeds.
That’s an impressive skill :)
I also miss the reduced footprint of mega companies with their “we are the internet” monopolistic tendencies. They still wanted to be the entire internet, but they weren’t.
Especially this. The web was just different without all the bloated pages with dozens of trackers.
Maybe not the early internet, but I do remember 2004-2009 internet when message boards were king, communities were smaller, and everything just felt so much more exciting. I miss those days of having one community with 100-200 or so users who posted everything from “What song are you listening to now?” to a fanfic some guy wrote about Foster’s Home For Imaginary Friends.
