To extrapolate:

People often say that one should not worry about what others think of them, but life simply doesn’t work that way. What other people think of you really does matter; point-in-fact, it can be everything depending on what field you go into.

Like say, for example, you’re a business owner and you’re recorded arguing with an angry Karen of a customer, the video’s posted online, and the internet sides with the Karen. Then, people boycott your business and you’re left without a livelihood.

Or perhaps you say something crass and get cancelled. Or simply anger or inconvenience someone with a lot of influence.

Or, even more horrifyingly, say you were assaulted and you came forward, and were ostracized and shunned by your community as a result.

How could one set up their life such that it would be impossible for people like that to rob one of their livelihood? How could one make it impossible for others to shun or ostracize them?

How could a business owner set up their business so that other people couldn’t simply shut it down on a whim in such a manner?


EDIT: I’ll just “be myself” since that’s what the majority of people in the thread want and repeat what I said to another individual:

Honestly, the way everybody is acting is really, really shameful. I am a person who made a thread and gave it a [Serious] tag because I wanted serious, literal answers to a serious problem that, given my chosen career path, will affect me at some point in my life and could potentially ruin it without good info to prepare for such a crisis beforehand. But all I’m getting is denial, mockery, condescension, lies, put-downs.

And it’s rooted in this desire to either pretend the problem is not real because you’re all secretly afraid it’ll affect you yourselves, or it’s because you know it’s real but you view it as a positive because ostracization and shunning people is an emotional cudgel you wield to silence people you don’t agree with on the internet, and answering the question honestly would require framing such actions as a negative and that would make you question the morality of your actions. And that’s not only sick, that’s just cowardly. If you believe cancelling people is morally A-O good, then at least have the temerity to threaten me with a “Don’t speak your mind and mask up” response like at least a few people were honest enough to do.

But don’t insult my intelligence by thinking you can lie to my face and pretend that something I’ve been personally watching happen to other people for over a decade is not, in fact, happening.

Now I came here for a serious answer to a serious problem that affects everyone. If you can’t participate in good faith and offer meaningful strategies to avoid or fix such problems and want to either misconstrue it as an emotional issue – much as you’ll do with what I’m saying here after the majority of you demanded I just be myself and not worry about the consequences – or outright deny it’s a real problem when it’s been real for over a decade, just don’t participate in the thread. Just go elsewhere.


Okay, I just acted like myself. Everyone happy?

  •  neptune   ( @neptune@dmv.social ) 
    link
    fedilink
    English
    1511 months ago

    If no one has said it, try talking to a therapist. Not only is rejection unavoidable, but it seems you might have anxiety or some sort of fixation on rejection. Totally normal to talk something like this out with a professional

  • Like many imaginary worries (something that could, but hasn’t happened) the answer to how do I avoid this 100% isn’t just, “you can’t” but rather, “you shouldn’t”.

    Imagine the similar question, “how do I make sure that there is zero chance of being harmed in a terror attack?” While the consequences are dire, the chances are very low, and the costs of avoiding it completely are far to high.

    And this scales with the level of risk and consequences:

    • do wear a seatbelt, don’t avoid all vehicles
    • do check travel safety warnings, don’t avoid all travel
    • do stay off social media while on booze and ambian, don’t lock yourself in a windowless cabin with no electricity

    Ultimately, it’s (getting cancelled, rejected en mass, etc.) a new and very visable fear in the 21st century, but like a long list of worries, spending time trying to solve something that hasn’t and likely won’t happen, is a waste of our limited years here. Be a good(ish) person, live your life and IF rejection happens, do your best to deal with it as it comes.

  • It means you aren’t suited to run a public facing business. There’s nothing wrong with that, but speaking as someone with a lot of social anxiety baggage there are things I’m equipped to do well and things that I’m not. I shouldn’t let that stop me from opening a business if I really want to, but if I simply don’t want to deal with the social rejection elements I have to accept that I’m better off letting someone else run that side of a business.

    As for the non-business elements of your question, all you can really do is conduct yourself in a way that you don’t believe you’ll find yourself regretting later. If you say something in a public place, especially online, consider it part of the public record. It can and will come back to bite you later. Assume your [morally positive family member here] is always watching.

  •  livus   ( @livus@kbin.social ) 
    link
    fedilink
    13
    edit-2
    11 months ago

    In a democratic society, there is no way to entirely “proof” yourself from consequences of your own antisocial actions like if you sexually assault people or something like that.

    I think the answer to what you’re really asking is

    • do not be in an industry where you are customer-facing or public-facing,

    • and do not seek a public platform.

    That will shield you from arbitrary and exaggerated mob type/snowballing behaviour, such as the Justine Sacco incident (in which a woman lost her job over an ironic joke about AIDS which fell victim to Poe’s Law).

  • Well, my first strategy has apparently been to sell all my belongings, immigrate to the developing world, lose every dime to my name.

    A wiser person might have focused on doing a less harrowing (but still difficult) thing. If we can excel at something difficult, perhaps the world can forgive our mediocrity in other matters, and if it doesn’t… well, at least we have something useful to focus on. For me, that thing is engineering.

    I do own and operate a business. Owning the business means I get to invent my own job (which mostly amounts to ‘mercenary science hermit’). I’m reasonably good at it, and have the correct legal paperwork to continue doing it, so it’s hard to displace me – I can just go find more customers. If that fails, maybe the problem is me :D

    All that being said, I do use a variety of figurative cudgels on people who forcibly inconvenience me with their opinions (although almost entirely offline). Some of these tools are emotional, some are financial or legal, and many are technological in nature. I do this to defend my freedom to think freely about subjects that interest me, which sometimes people feel entitled to encroach on.

    Mostly this pertains to ‘people who don’t want to pay me for work’, or ‘Asian superstitions’, because I am nowhere near North America. The current political situation over there is puzzling and fascinating to me, although I am sad to see it causes so much harm. Maybe come visit Asia someday for a vacation from it?

    Oh also I mostly avoid social media, especially for political stuff. I sign on primarily to answer questions travelers have about Vietnam, and help hobbyists choose components for electronic circuits (although Lemmy is not super active in these regards yet). I approach it as training to learn to be more patient with people, and in this sense it has been a rewarding activity.

    Anyway, those are some of the habits I’ve cultivated to try and make peace with the modern world. Hopefully some are useful to you as well.

  •  birdcat   ( @birdcat@lemmy.ml ) 
    link
    fedilink
    7
    edit-2
    11 months ago

    I generally recommend never using social media under your real name. And every business communication (where you need to use your real name) should only consist of bland and necessary stuff. A business, whether as big as Disney or just you, offering a thing from a website or food truck, simply does not need (and imo should not have and not pretend as if it had) values and political views.

    The podcast blocked and reported often revolves around your question (or more around the drama after it happened), sometimes they also interview people who had it happened to them, or wrote books about it.

    I cannot remember a specific episode now, there are so many. In one, a family-owned(?) bakery lost everything cuz they were falsely accused of racism.

    Probably the most interesting and famous case that underlines that simply being a “genuinely good person” is not enough, is the one of Justine Sacco; the woman who tweeted “Going to Africa. Hope I don’t get AIDS. Just kidding. I’m white!” and then lost her job etc., almost got her whole life destroyed (she fine today).

    While it may not be hilarious to everyone and kinda on the tasteless side, shitposting and making jokes should not destroy your life, so never do it under your real name!

  • There is no rejection proof because nothing is guaranteed in life. To be able to 100% guarantee something means to be perfect at something. Nobody is perfect at anything, perfection is only associated with godhood because it is realistically unobtainable.

  • How can a person “rejection-proof” their life?

    Stop living it.

    How could one set up their life such that it would be impossible for people like that to rob one of their livelihood? How could one make it impossible for others to shun or ostracize them?

    You could probably go into the woods and live alone for a while. Pollution would reach you eventually, but as long as you’re good at hunting, butchering, and cooking meat, you could last until your garden starts producing. If you have money now, you probably want to spend it on a cabin and a whole lot of non-perishable food and a wood-burning stove and as much buy-it-for-life cookwear as you can get. Your mattress will eventually break, but oh well.

    If this answer sounds ridiculous, I want you to take that to heart. Your question is just as ridiculous. If you’re going to be a part of society, society might reject you. Just be as decent a person as you can be and hope people appreciate you.

      • This is not legal advice and I am not your attorney.

        I doubt anybody would prosecute you, but on a practical level…

        I mean, you need to find a place to do it, and… I don’t think any states have homestead acts in 2023, so you’d probably need to buy some kind of land somewhere. Maybe you could manage in Texas, but I doubt it. You could also attempt to petition your state to give you some kind of interest in some unincorporated land… But you can’t do it in a national park, and even if you could find land nobody owns, you’d want to own it yourself to prevent others from building society over the land.

        You couldn’t hunt endangered species, and you’d need to own your weapons and hunt according to whatever law the state has… many require you to get a license to hunt… You don’t necessarily need a gun to hunt, and you don’t necessarily need to hunt after your garden starts working… Same with any potential environmental regulation, if you’re chopping down trees or something, some states might require you to plant new ones…

        And theoretically, all your hunting + farming could amount to income, but probably nowhere near enough to actually incur tax liability, and no tax agency is ever going to enforce that against you.

  • Don’t.

    If you’re worried about being cancelled, the only thing you have to worry about is not being a cunt to people.

    Decent people don’t get cancelled just because some Karen had a bad day, at most they’ll get some fairly minor Twitter bullshit that dies out fairly quickly, or there will be some unhinged motherfucker in your inbox that no one wants to back (feel free to call the cops on those).

    What truly damns the people that get cancelled are their own actions, not some Karen with an overinflated sense of self importance. Their attempts to cancel people usually backfire because they think they have a cult of personality behind them, when what they really have are a bunch of people just getting entertained.

    If you say something that gets misconstrued, explain yourself politely, understanding how this mixup could have happened. Those that are reasonable will back off, and those that still keep going just look unreasonable and not someone you’d want to back.

    • What happens when those that still keep going make up the vast majority of the population, including your customer base and/or employers?

      What happens when people just lie and make shit up about you, and the population refuses to listen to the truth because the lie resonates with their political beliefs?

      • What happens when those that still keep going make up the vast majority of the population, including your customer base and/or employers?

        They won’t. Most people don’t have time for that shit.

        What happens when people just lie and make shit up about you, and the population refuses to listen to the truth because the lie resonates with their political beliefs?

        Then these people were never going to help you anyway. Normal people don’t just up and believe anything they are told by some rando. They may however use it as pretext for discriminatory behaviour that was, realistically, going to happen anyway.

      • It…is?

        Think about every cancelling attempt that didn’t fall flat on its ass. It isn’t as simple as some Karen lighting someone up on Twitter or FB.

          •  520   ( @520@kbin.social ) 
            link
            fedilink
            1
            edit-2
            11 months ago

            …that’s your comparison to getting cancelled? The slave trade?

            Methinks you should sit down and actually think about the differences there.

              •  520   ( @520@kbin.social ) 
                link
                fedilink
                1
                edit-2
                11 months ago

                Okay, but you’re ignoring the scope of OP’s question, which is specifically how to avoid getting cancelled or otherwise socially rejected.

                It is true that even acting as a good person, there are ways to get someone cancelled. However, not acting like a cunt reduces these methods to false allegations of rape or child abuse, something your average Karen isn’t going to be able to pull off without getting charged themselves for malicious false reporting. Whereas acting like a cunt widens the possibilities significantly for a) an opening and b) for it to stick.

                • Okay, but you’re ignoring the scope of OP’s question, which is specifically how to avoid getting cancelled or otherwise socially rejected.

                  Does that not qualify as “hurt[ing] you”?

                  However, not acting like a cunt reduces these methods to false allegations of rape or child abuse, something your average Karen isn’t going to be able to pull off

                  You kidding? “A lie can travel halfway around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes.” The whole reason false accusations are so scary is because they’re easy to make, yet difficult if not impossible to disprove, and in the court of public opinion, the burden of proof is always on the accused.

                  without getting charged themselves for malicious false reporting.

                  Only if it’s reported to the police. If it’s posted on social media instead, the only thing the accuser has to worry about is being sued for defamation, and that’s only an issue if the victim is rich enough.

  • Serious question for you OP and I ask it in a spirit of… possible solidarity? Anyway: I tend to word things clumsily, flub delicate social situations, and just generally put my foot in my mouth at the worst possible time. It’s worse in high pressure situations. Are you like this too, and if so, do you worry a lot about unintentionally sabotaging your livelihood or relationships?

  • Have those examples even happened? I’m still not sure what cancellation involves and how long you need to be in that state before it counts as cancellation.

    The internet told me Louis CK was cancelled, but he won a Grammy last year. Kevin Spacey has been cast in movies this year. JK Rowling is still publishing books.

    • It does, and it’s a possibility that terrifies me. A lot of the celebrities who are cancelled are cancelled for justifiable reasons, granted (especially scumbags like R. Kelly), but it can happen to ordinary people for unjustifiable reasons, too, meaning anyone who seeks to do anything in life has to live with a sword of Damocles hanging over their head. Meaningful relationships with others can’t be built if the dynamics of that relationship include the fact that that other person has untold, unchecked power over you and you have legitimate reason to be afraid of them, given that it’s a thing.

      I want to own businesses in my life and even saying that has earned the ire of, by my count, at least one person in this thread. What’s to stop them from doxxing me and putting my personal information on blast all over the fediverse, or even old social media like Twitter, preventing me from ever being able to pursue my dreams simply because they don’t like capitalism? What’s to stop the right wing from doxxing me and sending me death threats if I gain a following and then speak out against them to that following, or boycotting my business because I put up a pride flag for Pride Month? How can community even be possible with the threat of something like that happening to you in existence?

        • I’m not worried about my ego, I’m worried about my livelihood, my dreams and my life. It’s so easy to dismiss the problem by wrongly framing it as an emotional one instead of treating it like the real threat that it is. It’s a lot harder to acknowledge there’s a serious problem here that everyone, not just myself, has to worry about.

          Ordinary people get cancelled all the time whether they deserve it or not, too, so we can’t reasonably just assume nobody will care. People clearly do.

          •  Helix 🧬   ( @Helix@feddit.de ) 
            link
            fedilink
            English
            211 months ago

            It is an emotional problem. I own part of a business and it’s nearly impossible to “cancel” me.

            As someone else said, perspective makes all the difference.

            Ordinary people get cancelled all the time

            Citation needed.

            • You must have been living under a rock the past decade then.

              It is an emotional problem. I own part of a business and it’s nearly impossible to “cancel” me.

              EDIT: Never mind, I know you’ll purposefully with-hold a straight answer because you think the fact that I am worrying about this is a moral failing on my part and you are trying to condition me to adopt your way of thinking. And that’s sick. It’s also a pretty good example of what I’m talking about so keep going

      • As others have already covered, everything we do comes with risk. Some people go through life without spending much thought on those risks, and if they’re lucky they never have to deal with these things. Others let it weigh upon them heavily, and it’s fairly evident that you fall into the latter camp.

        You’ve caught on to the general theme though, which is that the more of yourself you put out there needlessly, the greater a possibility for negative things to happen as a result of that. I’m not going to ask you to wave a magic wand and become the type of person who doesn’t worry about those things, so here are the best compromises:

        • Quality over quantity with your friends. Find some good people you can be yourself around, and don’t stress over having fewer people that you hang out with than others. It’s not a competition and it doesn’t make you an inferior person.

        • Minimize how much you “put yourself out there”. The internet wasn’t around 25 years ago, and when it was young it was common sense to use an alias on the internet wherever possible. Use different nicknames on different websites to minimize the ability of casual bad actors to link your identities between different social forums. The possibility of database leaks doxxing the e-mail address you signed up with is still there, but thwarting the low effort attempts does a lot on its own. You can go through the effort of registering with different e-mail addresses as well, but there is a point of diminishing returns here and you need to decide where to draw the line for yourself.

        • Remove yourself from online discussions when it’s healthy to do so. Assert your opinion, clarify your points if they need clarifying, and move on. Turn off notifications once you’re past that point. Winning arguments on the internet is not realistically a thing that happens, and notifications on your mobile device from an argument will needlessly pull you back into a place of anxiety. Considering how little those mobile notifications contribute to your positive frame of mind, it’s best to be rid of them completely if you ever find them having a negative impact on your day to day life.

        Edit:

        • Put yourself out there when you feel strongly that it is important to do so. Some causes are worth weathering the consequences, and you shouldn’t let a fear of consequences completely cripple you when you feel strongly enough about something. Will your friends have your back if you stick your foot into it? Then go for it.
  • How could one set up their life such that it would be impossible for people like that to rob one of their livelihood?

    You can’t. As long as you live and breathe, no matter how bad your life is, there’s always some jerk looking to make it even worse. It’s one of my many reasons to not have children.

  • You can’t. Furthermore, the consequences of “people pleasing” and “conflict avoidance” can do far more damage than the occasional bad rep. In fact, if you’re consistent about setting and enforcing reasonable boundaries, you’ll ultimately gain more respect in the long run.